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sheadunne
Skirmisher
13 Posts
    
Maine
 | | 01/01/2007 8:24 PM |
| I can accept a new edition, I've been through three now, what's one more. But my question is this . . . will a 4th edition make all my previous D&D Minis obsolete? I'm speaking about the stat cards of course, not the actual minis themselves, which will be useful for years to come. If the rules of the game change do the thousands of minis I've bought suddenly become useless for tournament play? New rules for D&D wouldn't upset me much, having to scrap my investment of minis would!
How does anyone else feel about that prospect?
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 01/01/2007 11:38 PM |
| I hadn't thought about that. But unless they scrap the d20 system, I think the mini game should be fine. The back side usable for the RPG might be problematic or unusable, and people might not see so directly the connection between the skirmish game and the RPG. But I don't think that'll be such a big deal.
But in terms of scrapping investment, won't sooner or later they have to "retire" the older sets anyways? Has there been a collectible game where they haven't retired early sets after awhile? Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has ever promised that every piece will always be used. If they have, and it is removed from play, that really stinks. But if not, then we can't make that assumption.
Now the question is, why do you play in tournaments? If it's to win, then any money you spend has to be seen as upkeep to continue doing that. How does retiring old sets change that? It has the same effect on your game as the addition of new sets does. You have to examine your collection to make appropriate warbands, except now you are probably not spending anything else because you are removing and not needing to add anything in general. Nothing prevents you from using them in home play, just not legal tournaments.
Magic players deal with this all the time, and that game has kept on going for over a decade. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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sheadunne
Skirmisher
13 Posts
Maine
| | 01/02/2007 4:00 AM |
| Well I know there has been talk about revising the AC stat for a new edition, which would certainly affect the existing sets for DDM and who knows if they're thinking an HP change for a new edition (something more like D20 Modern). But either way it would be frustrating. The only positive is that the minis themselves would be fine.
So far so good with not retiring sets, even though most of the early pieces are becoming less usable in tournaments, it's still nice to pull out the orc champions once in a while. In the 11 sets so far, only one piece (the drider sorcerer) has been banned from play.Â
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 01/02/2007 7:48 AM |
| Where is the rumor about a change to the Armor system, or HP coming from, I'd like to read it...
I strongly suspect that 4th edition if/when it happens will be a change more in line with 2nd edition (vs 1st) than 3rd edition (vs 2nd).
That is to say that there will be broad tweaks, but more everything will appear to be awfully similar. If they do this, then the RPG side will be "partially" useful. Just as a 2nd edition party had a pretty easy time going through a 1st edition adventure, so to will a 4th edition party likely have it easy with a bunch of DDM beasties of previousaly approriate level.
However, so tweaks to the RPG may have little bearing on DDM. The original developers, Rob Heinsoo and Mike Donais made a comittment (not a promise though) that they would do everything that they can to make sure that DDM sets don't have to be retired.
Frankly, why should they? The only reason they would, would be if the only winning warband were composed primarily of figures form those early sets. Is that the case? NOPE!
I suspect, though I don't "know" that DDM Skirmish will be unaffected by 4th edition. I do think that 4th edition will be influed by DDM skirmish however...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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sheadunne
Skirmisher
13 Posts
Maine
| | 01/02/2007 10:36 AM |
| It's not from any particular source, just from some trends I'm seeing in several other d20 games. The changes in AC being Armor as damage reduction (which is an option from unearthed arcana) and not including it in the AC. HP changing to be similar to D20 Modern, with two stats instead of one.Â
Who knows if these will change or not, but if they did, it would change DDM, unless they just kept the existing system and didn't change it based on a 4th edition.
However, DDM does use a different save system anyway, using level instead of individual saving throws. So any changes brought on by a possible 4th edition may be ignored as far as DDM is concerned.
And I do agree with you that the change will probably be more like the change from 1st to 2nd. Small changes that still allow easy use of existing materials. I'm just curious if there are any big changes like to AC or HP will that negatively impact existing DDM or would it simply break away from the rules changes and keep the exisiting system. Just speculating. It's always enjoyable to guess at the possibilities.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 01/02/2007 12:57 PM |
| Just speculating. It's always enjoyable to guess at the possibilities.
It's a good question, as something we can talk about without having to base it on wild speculation or many unknowns.
The original developers, Rob Heinsoo and Mike Donais made a comittment (not a promise though) that they would do everything that they can to make sure that DDM sets don't have to be retired.
Frankly, why should they? The only reason they would, would be if the only winning warband were composed primarily of figures form those early sets. Is that the case? NOPE!
I'm not to into the skirmish game, but usually retirement happens because early pieces are too powerful (which, Pat, you've said they aren't) or pieces from those sets give unfair advantage to older players who have access to them compared to newer players that don't, thereby putting a barrier to new players. Now, I think the latter may happen over time, but again, I don't skirmish enough to be an authority on this.
I alos think 4th ed will be more like 3.75. As for AC, it seems too iconic to me at this time. I've played other games wher AC = DR, and it could work here, too, but I like the idea of what it represents now more than DR. But that is just opinion. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 01/02/2007 1:17 PM |
| I'm not to into the skirmish game, but usually retirement happens because early pieces are too powerful (which, Pat, you've said they aren't) or pieces from those sets give unfair advantage to older players who have access to them compared to newer players that don't, thereby putting a barrier to new players. Now, I think the latter may happen over time, but again, I don't skirmish enough to be an authority on this.
Exactly my point. There are only a handful of pieces from the first 4 sets that see regular competitive use (you have to be talking about competitive play to have this conversation...).
None of those figures are "required" to win a competitve tournament today. Sure they may help with a specific build, but there are plenty of equally powerful figures from current sets that allow you to make a perfectly competitive warband without them.
Thus, no retirements. This could change if in 15-24 months we are seeing that all warbands are dominated by figures from DK-BW only... But clearly, the figures from Har-GoL don't fit that category.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 01/02/2007 1:21 PM |
| Yeah, I can believe that. The only way it wouldn't be true is if there is a combination with a future piece that changes the game, or there are so few pieces in use that you can do it and it has no effect. The former reason seems unlikely because of design intent and the latter probably won't happen because if retiring is the same as keeping a set, you might as well keep it.
Thanks for the insight. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Mjollnir
Underboss
1461 Posts
Canary Islands - Spain
| | 02/02/2007 4:09 PM |
| | I think minis should not result obsolete with a new edition. Minis cards..., well, that's another matter, concerning rpg stats they will surely become obsolete. Skirmish could be adapted more easily, I think. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3910 Posts
Adelaide
| | 02/15/2007 7:03 PM |
| There is always the probailty that downloaded cards would replace existing _if_ skirmish rules chaged that dramactially too.
So scrapping cards, but not scrapping those minsi for tourment play.
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
908 Posts
| | 03/05/2007 8:56 AM |
| | I see minis as separate from the rpg completely. They make plenty off of the minis, including from those who skirmish. If they change the rules substantially, then I doubt they would alter minis skirmish rules. Too much risk in losing players and their money. There are already enough differences in the two that I get confused, so I really don't see why they would change the rules to match a new rpg edition. | |
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Tobus Neth
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 03/29/2007 12:58 AM |
| | The whole art direction will change with $e and thus the miniatures will change. I see the $e version of D&D &DDM merging as one. And the miniatures will be of highest quality and price. | | | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 04/06/2007 1:09 AM |
| | Well there are 4 years to come! we have to wait and pray that the new D&D 4th edition doesnt make stravagant changes. | |
Knight of the Quori
Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
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Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 04/06/2007 9:35 AM |
| I think we'll continue to see the lines blurring between RPG and Skirmish.
They are really trying to take the best of both and combine them to enhance them both. I'm looking forward to it, in another 3-4 years, though.
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 04/11/2007 1:27 AM |
| Maybe we get the game back to the begining
A new 4th edition Harbinger, dragoneye, Archfiends, etc! XD | |
Knight of the Quori
Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
Purple Knight of Venezuela
Venezuelan Site For D&D minis Calabozo Criollo Venezuela
Venezuelan Site for SW minis VeneMinis.com | |
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11498 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/04/2007 5:51 AM |
| Posted By PatEllis15 on 01/02/2007 7:48 AM
However, so tweaks to the RPG may have little bearing on DDM. The original developers, Rob Heinsoo and Mike Donais made a comittment (not a promise though) that they would do everything that they can to make sure that DDM sets don't have to be retired.
Frankly, why should they? The only reason they would, would be if the only winning warband were composed primarily of figures form those early sets. Is that the case? NOPE!
I suspect, though I don't "know" that DDM Skirmish will be unaffected by 4th edition. I do think that 4th edition will be influed by DDM skirmish however...
Pat E
So much for comittments eh?
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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/04/2007 8:23 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/04/2007 5:51 AM Posted By PatEllis15 on 01/02/2007 7:48 AM
However, so tweaks to the RPG may have little bearing on DDM. The original developers, Rob Heinsoo and Mike Donais made a comittment (not a promise though) that they would do everything that they can to make sure that DDM sets don't have to be retired.
Frankly, why should they? The only reason they would, would be if the only winning warband were composed primarily of figures form those early sets. Is that the case? NOPE!
I suspect, though I don't "know" that DDM Skirmish will be unaffected by 4th edition. I do think that 4th edition will be influed by DDM skirmish however...
Pat E So much for comittments eh?
well, technically, they arerebooting the whle game, so it's not retirement so much as a new edition. Just like 2E isn't compatible with 3E or 3.5...
Besides, who's to say they didn't keep their commitment to do everything possible? | |
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Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11498 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/04/2007 8:27 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/04/2007 8:23 AM
well, technically, they arerebooting the whle game, so it's not retirement so much as a new edition. Just like 2E isn't compatible with 3E or 3.5...
That sounds like PR spin to me.
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Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| 
Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10875 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/04/2007 10:13 AM |
| Posted By sheadunne on 01/01/2007 8:24 PM
I can accept a new edition, I've been through three now, what's one more. But my question is this . . . will a 4th edition make all my previous D&D Minis obsolete? I'm speaking about the stat cards of course, not the actual minis themselves, which will be useful for years to come. If the rules of the game change do the thousands of minis I've bought suddenly become useless for tournament play? New rules for D&D wouldn't upset me much, having to scrap my investment of minis would!
How does anyone else feel about that prospect?
The D&D stats on the back of the skirmish card were a neat idea. I never used them for several reasons.... One they were too small for my eyes to read, I'd rather be looking at a MM or a computer printout. Two, several times the stats proved to be a little wonky and unreliable for. Three I don't play much D&D at all these days, but I still use the figures in Rpgs; hence the D&D stats are not all that usefull.
Of course now that I'm done with my little rant, I see I didn't realy answer your question properly... I'd be very annoyed if the new Skirmish rules are too much of a change from our current ones. I just started playing the skirmish game again recently, it's fun and I've yet to see anything horribly wrong with it yet. It's likely the paranoid within me saying this..... but the whole change from the current DDM game to whatever Wotc has in mind makes me think of the Mage Knight debacle. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
| | Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/05/2007 7:11 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/04/2007 8:27 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/04/2007 8:23 AM
well, technically, they arerebooting the whle game, so it's not retirement so much as a new edition. Just like 2E isn't compatible with 3E or 3.5...
That sounds like PR spin to me.
I agree completely, that's exactly what it sounds like. And if asked, it's the answer they are most likely to give.
Doesn't make it any less true. They're getting off on a technicality. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3910 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/05/2007 4:14 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/05/2007 7:11 AM Posted By Ghendar on 09/04/2007 8:27 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/04/2007 8:23 AM
well, technically, they arerebooting the whle game, so it's not retirement so much as a new edition. Just like 2E isn't compatible with 3E or 3.5...
That sounds like PR spin to me. I agree completely, that's exactly what it sounds like. And if asked, it's the answer they are most likely to give. Doesn't make it any less true. They're getting off on a technicality.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
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