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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 08/20/2007 8:03 AM |
| I've been more or less randomly reading through several threads since the announcement of 4E and although i was aware of the passion around D&D, i'm still surprised at the intensity of the negative response around 4E.
Just to set things in perspective, i've played 1E for 20 years and 3.X for 3-4 years now, with a few years' break between the two. I'm very passionate about this hobby and I love the game. I'm implicated in 3 campaigns right now, two as a DM (homebrew and commercial, respecitvely) and one as a player.
Still, i don't understand the intensity of the negative response about the upcoming 4E.
At the outset, what strikes me the most is that people will be able to continue playing 3.X however much they want, up until the very end of their lives if they feel like it. All WotC is announcing is the publication of a new edition of D&D. A new game, to some extent. Why react thusly to the announcement of a new game? Not only that, but everyone knew (except those that deliberately decided to wear a blindfold) that 4E was coming.
I realize that everyone is very passionate about D&D and all, but really guys, relax just one second. Take a deep breath. This is not so bad, and certainly not worth getting yourselves in such a state (at least for those that are getting themselves in such a state).
Not only that, but there is one possibility: 4E might even be cool. I have no idea if it will, but it might. If so, then good for us.
Does that mean that 3.X is moot? Nope. Keep on playing 3.X if you want. I might do exactly that when 4E comes out, if the new (or updated) rules don't suit my fancy. Will there be no more new 3.X material? Of course they'll be some. As long as people play it, there will. Paizo's Pathfinder for one appears to be likely to publish 3.X material, as will other third parties.
Also: should D&D have stuck to 1E all those years? Should it stop evolving? I happen to think it shouldn't. 4E, 5E and more if they feel like it. Give me some game options. It's up to me, as a consumer, to choose what game i prefer.
Anyway, think about the really important stuff in life: your wife and kids, your loved ones, health, freedom, whatever is really important: do you react for these subjects with a similar intensity as you are doing for the announcement of 4E? If not, then you might have a few priorities to set straight. And IMHO, the reaction i see here and on some other boards appears quite out of proportion relative to the relative importance of this announcement.
I apologize for appearing moralistic, but this is the first time i hang around a board where i see an event which is so trivial trigger such an intense reaction.
Oh, and as for being allegedly lied to by WotC about 4E: please! Let it go! Damn! This is the most minor lie i've heard in my entire life, and one that is so obvious that i could tear my eyeballs out. So... they've kept 4E as a surprise appearance, while suggesting that it was not in the works. Whoopie-frickin'do. Who cares? Do you think that all companies don't lie to you ever? That when a company says "we have the best product out there", that it's always the Truch (capital T). That politicians don't lie to you ever? That your wife doesn't? That your kids don't? That your friends don't? B.B. King has a song on this very topic, and it goes like this:
"Everybody lies a little, sometimes".
Even you. You know it.
So let it go, and enjoy 4E if it is a good game, and stick to 3.X if it's not.
Just keep on gaming and have fun.
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/20/2007 8:11 AM |
| The way I see it Sky, you're missing two very important points to many, many gamers.
1) Many gamers think it's way too early for a new edition and that 3E is good enough that it doesn't need to be replaced by a new edition. Are there changes and improvements to be made? Sure, but you can say that about any RPG ever produced. It doesn't mean that we need a whole new edition.
2) You're right, nothing is stopping anyone from keeping on playing 3E but as I said in another thread....
Posted By Ghendar on 08/20/2007 7:53 AM
The fact is (and it is a fact) when a new edition of D&D comes out, players tend to migrate to the new edition, leaving the existing player base for the old edition greatly depleted. I'm not sure that will happen right away with the move from 3E to 4E because there are a lot of people out there pretty cheesed about this news. We'll see.
I play with a group right now that will only play the most current edition and when 4E comes out they will definitely want to move to it. So now I have a choice, either find another 3E group or move to 4E. The problem is that I like the people I play D&D with and don't really want to go out and find another group, thus my only options are to play 4E or not play at all.
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No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/20/2007 8:21 AM |
| | It's 2-4 years too early for another edition. I'll likely skip 4e and pick up with 5e about 2013 or 2014.  My 25 year old passion for D&D dies with the death of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and the realization that I'm no lomger their target demographic. The latter being the most telling blow. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 08/20/2007 8:56 AM |
| | I totally agree with you on this one, Skyscraper. I understand people not being interested in 4E, or deciding that they dislike the rules or that it is not worth the investment, or that they dislike the art style, but the anger over its mere existance truly baffles me. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Xysma
Skirmisher
8 Posts
The Dirty South
| | 08/20/2007 9:05 AM |
| People are passionate about this game. It's human nature to resist change, we're comfortable with 3.5 and are afraid 4E will be a change for the worst. I've been playing in the 3ed Realms since the Campaign Setting was released in 2001. So, by the time 4E Realms comes out, that's seven years, about three years shorter than the life of a game edition has been in the past. I have mixed emotions, I have high hopes for 4ed, but I am afraid the game in general is becoming more and more focused on the teen demographic, which doesn't suit my taste, but I can't complain much since I started playing the game in my teens. Targeting the 30-40 year old demographic is likely not the best business move for WotC, as much as I hate it and hate to admit it. I think the game is going to be more and more like WoW, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. comic style art, easy, no-thought rules, "Awesome" looking monsters, and so on.
I remember quite awhile back WotC had a survey asking about online products and services, and I fairly well remember how I answered those questions. Had I known that survey was going to lead to the end of my precious e-Tools, Dragon, and Dungeon, I would've answered quite differently.
That being said, I agree with Skyscraper. What is the point of getting so worked up about it? Of course I can't for the life of me figure out the Greyhawk or Eberron fans who constantly hijack Realms threads and talk about how bad the Realms suck. It's the same principle, people like to complain and everyone thinks their opinion is the only one that matters. Are the rants going to change anything? The only thing that actually speaks to WotC (and all companies for that matter) is money. That's not a bad thing, if it weren't making money, we would not be seeing 4E, we'd bee seeing the death of D&D. I, for one, do not want to see that. I want D&D to keep going, regardless of its incarnation. If I don't like 4E, I can skip it and wait for 5E. | |
No one will remember today except that two stood against many. I ask you, Father Crom, grant me victory, grant me revenge. And if you will not grant them to me; then the hell with you!
-Conan | |
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
908 Posts
| | 08/20/2007 9:20 AM |
| | One of the biggest problems you've missed with a new edition is that they stop supporting the older edition. So people who have spent 30 bucks a book for every source book, suddenly can't buy the new adventures. The villians will be written with new stats, monsters will have the same problem. Will they change the CR system? If so how do you adapt it to your 3E character. New source books have the same problem. It is a kick in the crotch to all those who buy all the source books instead of downloading them off of limewire. They put our 3E, then shortly after, put out 3.5. Suddenly everyone that bought the class expansion books (tome and blood, etc.) had useless source books. It really feels economics driven, not game driven. Looks like they are just trying to make us all buy new core books, and stuff. | |
E-mail | Have/Want List | Reference thread
"Whatever you do, don't drop a blade barrier on a troll."
KOK smilinIrish, Not the Fightin' Kind
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/20/2007 9:43 AM |
| | For the most part I agree with Skyscraper. I certainly have my reservations about 4.0 and while I'm concerned - I am in no way angry about the upcoming change. It's irrational to be angry about something before you know exactly what that something is, and as Skyscraper pointed out - 4.0 might even be cool. Anyway, I honesly don't think that being angry about it is going to change anything so why bother? | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/20/2007 10:01 AM |
| Posted By Star on 08/20/2007 9:43 AM
 Anyway, I honesly don't think that being angry about it is going to change anything so why bother? Some folks need to vent their emotions before they can even begin to move on.
I say let them vent if they want to vent. No one says any of us have to read any posts. (not targeting you Star)
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
641 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 08/20/2007 10:12 AM |
| Posted By smilinIrish on 08/20/2007 9:20 AM
One of the biggest problems you've missed with a new edition is that they stop supporting the older edition. So people who have spent 30 bucks a book for every source book, suddenly can't buy the new adventures. The villians will be written with new stats, monsters will have the same problem. Will they change the CR system? If so how do you adapt it to your 3E character. New source books have the same problem. It is a kick in the crotch to all those who buy all the source books instead of downloading them off of limewire. They put our 3E, then shortly after, put out 3.5. Suddenly everyone that bought the class expansion books (tome and blood, etc.) had useless source books. It really feels economics driven, not game driven. Looks like they are just trying to make us all buy new core books, and stuff.
If they've honestly bought every 3.X sourcebook, then they have more than enough material to play D&D for years to come. Heck, I'm running the Shackled City Adventure Path right now, and that one book will keep me and my gaming group occupied for well over a year.
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"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/20/2007 10:47 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/20/2007 8:11 AM
The way I see it Sky, you're missing two very important points to many, many gamers.
1) Many gamers think it's way too early for a new edition and that 3E is good enough that it doesn't need to be replaced by a new edition. Are there changes and improvements to be made? Sure, but you can say that about any RPG ever produced. It doesn't mean that we need a whole new edition.
2) You're right, nothing is stopping anyone from keeping on playing 3E but as I said in another thread....
Posted By Ghendar on 08/20/2007 7:53 AM
The fact is (and it is a fact) when a new edition of D&D comes out, players tend to migrate to the new edition, leaving the existing player base for the old edition greatly depleted. I'm not sure that will happen right away with the move from 3E to 4E because there are a lot of people out there pretty cheesed about this news. We'll see.
I play with a group right now that will only play the most current edition and when 4E comes out they will definitely want to move to it. So now I have a choice, either find another 3E group or move to 4E. The problem is that I like the people I play D&D with and don't really want to go out and find another group, thus my only options are to play 4E or not play at all.
I dig your eyeball avatar there Ghendar 
I hear your points. However, with reference to your numbered arguments:
1) since 4E is not backwards compatible, it is a new game. Whether we feel a new game is warranted is not relevant. There is a new game out there. You can decide to play it or not. If you don't like it, don't. It's like getting worked up (i'm not saying you are, by the way) because they made NeverWinterNights after having made Baldur's Gate, it's not related. BG still exists even though a new game was issued.
Does a new game detract the player base from the old or does it reduce the quantity of published material of the old? Yes, but that's another matter. People get worked up simply because 4E is being announced and they don't feel it is needed, as you say. Why? I'll risk an explanation: it's because it touches on an aura that surrounds a mystical entity that D&D is for some people. That's also why i posted here, to provide my opinion on this: D&D is a great game, but it's just a game, let's not elevate it to a para-religious level where it can't be touched or modified.
2) the argument on the player base moving away from 3E towards 4E (and also the one about the reduced published material) is relevant. Still, unless 4E is really stellar, 3E will continue to have adepts and for most people it should be easy to find games and gamers. It's too bad if your friends will all switch to 4E, but hey that's how a group works: you have to bend to the will of the majority or else find another group.
Also, third party publishers will continue to produce stuff for 3E if many players will continue playing it. I feel that the dependance on WotC by the D&D fans is not desirable anyway, but i'll not get into that.
So:
- option A: 4E is stellar, isn't that good? I'd like that. A better game. Most people switch and 3E slowly dies, because the other edition is just better.
- option B: 4E isn't as good as 3E, then we stick to 3E and the player base and product availability remain.
- option C: approximate equilibrium between 3E and 4E, then we're midway between options A and B and 3E still survives.
In all circumstances, no need to raise hell IMO.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/20/2007 10:58 AM |
| I guess it all comes down to understanding the psyche of gamers. Some get pissed and some shrug it off. I understand both perspectives. IÂ also understand the need to vent and the value in releasing that anger. As I said above, sometimes you need to vent in order to move on.
All in all, the reaction to the news of 4E was much tamer than the reaction to the killing of Dungeon & Dragon. Some of those responses were truly scary. Yikes! | |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
vanrulzz
Underboss
2346 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 08/20/2007 11:16 AM |
| | i have changed my mind about 4E. it is probably better anyy so i shouldnt detest it cuz im afraid of change and stuff. (i am still pissed about minis 2.0 though dont get me wrong there) | |
TENTACLES!!!!!
STRANGE TEMPLES!!!!
FREE PIE!!!!
IM CRZY KEWL!!!! | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/20/2007 11:17 AM |
| Yeah, i guess human nature has a lot to do with anything. I can see people not being happy about a new version of D&D though i personally don't agree, it's the heated anger part i have trouble with.
I'm very surprised to read that some people will abandon D&D because of the announcement of 4E: why do you suddenly not like your hobby anymore? What prevents you from continuing to have fun playing D&D, not buying anymore books if you don't feel like it? What really scares me however is when i read that people will burn their books (read more than once): isn't that a bit of an overreaction? I've had a friend react in a similar manner when his years-long relationship ended when his girlfriend took off with his best friend (three persons i knew quite well), he burned his pictures of her and some other things. I can see burning stuff in the latter case, for some reason i have trouble with the burning part because WotC releases a new D&D version. I wouldn't want to be around those guys when something really dramatic and important occurs in their life.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/20/2007 3:18 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/20/2007 10:58 AM
I guess it all comes down to understanding the psyche of gamers. Some get pissed and some shrug it off. I understand both perspectives. IÂ also understand the need to vent and the value in releasing that anger. As I said above, sometimes you need to vent in order to move on.
All in all, the reaction to the news of 4E was much tamer than the reaction to the killing of Dungeon & Dragon. Some of those responses were truly scary. Yikes!
I totally nderstand Ghenar's point here. Venting and anger are part of the natural process.
I do have a problem when they call the company a liar, when that isn't necessarily the case... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/20/2007 6:30 PM |
| Yeah, that whole lying part is greatly overdone as far as i'm concerned. The only thing that anyone could come up with in any message i happaned to read as far as showing a "lie" was the statement by WotC in Feb. 2007 that "4E was far away" or "a long ways from now" or something to that intent. A year and a three months can be interpreted as a long way off if you want to, or not. That appears to be the extent of the "lie".
I still think people are getting all worked up with this 4E thing because D&D is more than it should in many people's minds, and then any and all nook and crannies are being looked into to try to fault WotC with everything that happened from Eve eating the apple and forward.
This being said, i do see a lot of sensible discussion going on also, this has already triggered its share of captivating elements of conversation on the nature of the game and how it can be changed, and why did WotC try to fix alleged problems here and there, and so on. I think i'll stop whining myself before i become worse than anything else i've read I really look forward to seeing the new set of rules they propose and whether or not our group will embrace them. (Plus, i anticipate that my present homebrew mega-adventure will come to an end by next winter, which is good timing ).
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/20/2007 7:50 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/20/2007 10:01 AM Posted By Star on 08/20/2007 9:43 AM
 Anyway, I honesly don't think that being angry about it is going to change anything so why bother? Some folks need to vent their emotions before they can even begin to move on. I say let them vent if they want to vent. No one says any of us have to read any posts. (not targeting you Star)
Not feeling targeted at all.
I understand the need to vent. Talking things out or writing them down is a very cathartic way of dealing with issues.
Maybe it's the degree of anger over this issue that I don't understand. I own almost sixty 3.0 and 3.5 books, I'm in two D+D games that will be dramatically changed - and at this point I have no way of knowing if the change is for the better or not. I have spent a lot of time and money on D+D 3.0/3.5 and I am (at the very most) apprehensive about 4.0. Obviously this is a much more serious issue for some people and I'm willing to accept and listen to a lot of different points of view - but some of the posts I've read simply cross the bounds of venting.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/20/2007 8:21 PM |
| I guess I'm with Star on this. I own every 3.0 and 3.5 book. Every adventure, every DM Screen, every FR and almost every Eberron book. I have, right now, 4 full shlves of 3.0/3.5 content (counting OGL stuff as well) I'm more concerned with where I'm going to put all this stuff. I'll probably sell some, keep more, and clear out those shelves for 4E stuff.
And I get the venting thing. I had to vent about Minis 2.0. I was torqued about that at first. But I've since seen the reasoning behind it.
Honestly, some people just want to complain anyway. Pessimism and all that. [this is not aimed at anyone specific. [If you think this is aimed at you, you're probably wrong ] | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10106 Posts
United States
| | 08/21/2007 6:07 AM |
| Excerpted from more than one possible online source:
The Five Stages of the Grief
Grief can occur as the result of a number of different events – someone we know dies, a relationship ends, we lose a pet, we have to give up a long held goal in our life, or any other number of situations. But there is one common denominator in all of these events, and that is loss. Grief is a process of physical, emotional, social, and cognitive reactions to loss. The grieving process is often a hard one to work through. It requires patience with ourselves and with others. Although responses to loss are as diverse as the people experiencing it, patterns or stages that are commonly experienced have emerged. These stages were identified and named by Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Knowing these five stages can sometimes help in coping with the process of grief and recognizing that there is light at the end of the tunnel. It should be noted that although most people experience all of the following stages, they do not experience them with the same duration, or in the same order, or with the same intensity. It is a very unique process.
Denial
Denial is generally the first stage in the grief process. It can be experienced as numbness or avoidance or isolation or direct denial. It is a stage in which we just cannot believe that the loss is true. We may tell ourselves that it did not really happen. It does not seem real.
Anger
Another stage of grief is anger. At this point, we have gotten past some or all of the denial, but now we are angry about the loss. We may want to take it out on something or someone, or we may just express our anger in ways that are familiar to us.
Bargaining
In the bargaining stage, we are trying to come up with ways to get back what we lost or just find someone or something to blame. Common thoughts include "If only I had just …." or "I wish we could have…." or "Maybe if I do this…." In the case of a lost relationship, we might actually bargain with the person we lost in an effort to get them back. "If I change my behavior, will you come back?"
Depression
The depression stage is just as it sounds, a time of sadness. It generally follows denial, anger, and bargaining when we feel helpless and hopeless to stop the loss. It may include crying, withdrawal, or any other way that expresses sadness.
Acceptance
The final stage is acceptance. Most often we have gone through all of the above stages and in many cases cycled through the above stages more than once before getting to acceptance. At this stage, we have (to some extent) reorganized ourselves and our thinking to incorporate the loss. This does not mean that we no longer get sad about the loss from time to time, but the sadness is now a part of us and does not keep us from functioning normally most of the time. Over time, the intensity of the sadness generally diminishes, but may never entirely go away.
Armed with the knowledge of these five stages, we can now better understand ourselves and others who are going through the grief process. Recognizing the stages can increase your empathy and support for others and provide permission for yourself to go through the process in your own way and in your own time.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/21/2007 8:42 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/20/2007 3:18 PM
I do have a problem when they call the company a liar, when that isn't necessarily the case...
Every company lies at one time or another. Or maybe they deflect and evade instead. Or maybe they are vague and non specific.
It's part of business. I say it's no big deal.Â
Would it be in any company's best interest to be truthful all the time? It would have been fundamentally harmful to WotC for them to have confirmed 4E a year ago. I would say a better strategy is to say nothing at all.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/21/2007 9:14 AM |
| Ah, but silence speaks volumes. They were evasive, and not entirely forthcoming, sure. But there was no untruth there, there was no malicious misleading.
I agree, no company is going to be completely transparent. But they've done far better than almost any other company I can think of. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/21/2007 10:50 AM |
| Posted By vanrulzz on 08/20/2007 11:16 AM
i have changed my mind about 4E. it is probably better anyy so i shouldnt detest it cuz im afraid of change and stuff. (i am still pissed about minis 2.0 though dont get me wrong there)
This is how I felt after a day or two to think on it. They still have to show it's a good game, but I relly trust the R&D guys. They are all very capable and really work hard to bring out great products. They're not perfect, but in general they haven't let me down yet.
Now, I can understand people being upset, and I think because of the immediacy of the web, it's easier to just post what you feel right then and there, or say exactly what you feel without any instant response as you would have if you talked to someone in person. For perspective, over the entire weekend, only 2 people came up to the D&D Insider booth and were loudly upset about this. Everyone else was generally more positive than negative, but there was still more caution.Â
Change in games is always a little unsettling. You like the current incarnation, will the next one be good? Who knows until you see it. I felt this way with 3rd ed, and it turned out for he best. I'm hoping history repeats itself.
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Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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kyrin
Commander
3146 Posts
| | 08/22/2007 8:25 AM |
| Okay, here's my perspective:
My gaming group is a bunch of thrity- and forty-somethings who have been playing the game through three editions now. We just don't have the time and energy to learn a new game. We have families. We don't have jobs; we have careers now. We can play for a few hours a week, maybe. Quite frankly, we are still learning 3.5. It's not that we fear change -- we just have very full lives.
I will no doubt be demoing 4.0 for my FLGS, so I won't totally ignore it. But I doubt my gaming group will embrace 4.0 as swiftly and wholeheartedly as we did 3.0/3.5.
For my part, I will likely wait a few years before diving in. I'll wait for 4.5 to come out, as we all know it will. I'll wait for the second round of splatbooks, the 4.0 version of the "Complete" series. WotC has shown me the way with 3rd edition: wait for others to beta-test for you.
The biggest thing that disturbs me is that while 4.0 may indeed be a new game, I fear it will not be treated as such by the company. I fear it will be treated as the *replacement* for 3.5, not an alternative. There will be few if any 3.5 games at GenCon, for example. While it is true that I have more 3.5 materials that I will ever play in my lifetime, I'm just a little sad that it will be abandoned, and I'll have to learn a new game to play or discuss D&D beyond my gaming group.
That's the 2 cents I have right now. We'll wee what happens as things develop.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Galinar
Sneak
122 Posts
| | 08/22/2007 8:44 AM |
| | Although I do not post often, I am a lurker and have been reading as much as I can about 4E. From what I have seen the online tools for 4E look very cool, and I can not wait to try them out. But it looks like they are going to make you pay to have access to all the new material online. The prospect of paying a monthly fee to be able to use all the material for 4E does not sit well with me. To me 4E feels like a big money grab by Wizards.  | |
Vindicated Champion of the Hill(Tordek) Dwarf Champion
Champion of Strongheart
Completed Trades: 31 johnny_gaijin, Blackened_Webs, lantern314, niolo, BigFON,Toxic_Rat, spikegif, scallamander, rhane, madda, Halofurry, Bragi, Aesnath, Sir Bozak The Damned, arbados, devasque, topdecker, callidusx3, lantern314, DrX, lur77, Cyrus_Vlan, Ironfist Boulderbender, Crisisman, Trilistria, roonechr, Kat_Dawg33, ckissee, arksorn, realmaster, rokeca
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/22/2007 8:51 AM |
| Posted By Galinar on 08/22/2007 8:44 AM
Although I do not post often, I am a lurker and have been reading as much as I can about 4E. From what I have seen the online tools for 4E look very cool, and I can not wait to try them out. But it looks like they are going to make you pay to have access to all the new material online. The prospect of paying a monthly fee to be able to use all the material for 4E does not sit well with me. To me 4E feels like a big money grab by Wizards. Â
You know, I had concerns about the Monthly fees to, but if the programs work, and are properly and constantly updated, I would be all for it. Tht's what I'm really paying for, is all the behind the scenes work of updating the systems. If it's shoddily done, then that will be a huge 4E disaster.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
kyrin
Commander
3146 Posts
| | 08/22/2007 9:58 AM |
| Jeff,
That's another reason why I am more than willing to let others test the waters for me.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/22/2007 10:58 AM |
| Even in the best of cases, i doubt very much that i'll be subscribing to the online stuff. If 4E appears good and all, i'll buy the core books and that is likely to be it. Unless they really come up with fantastic stuff, in which case i might buy a few select additional books. In all cases, DI is just bad news for me since it probably means that they'll be taking away stuff that is now free on their website and putting it for subscribers only, of which i'm not going to be.
There is also the alternative where they might decide to downgrade the sourcebooks significantly to leave more stuff for PH2, MM2, other books and DI, in which case i would be quite pissed and would reconsider buying 4E altogether even if it is a good edition, then sticking with 3.5. I don't want to be buying 10 books to be able to play. The numerous threads i've read on the subject suggest that some 3.5 core races and classes will not appear in the initial books of 4E, here's to hoping that they don't leave all the barbarians, monks, half-orcs, gnomes, and maybe others too, for later publications.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 08/22/2007 4:24 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/22/2007 10:58 AM
There is also the alternative where they might decide to downgrade the sourcebooks significantly to leave more stuff for PH2, MM2, other books and DI, in which case i would be quite pissed and would reconsider buying 4E altogether even if it is a good edition, then sticking with 3.5. I don't want to be buying 10 books to be able to play. The numerous threads i've read on the subject suggest that some 3.5 core races and classes will not appear in the initial books of 4E, here's to hoping that they don't leave all the barbarians, monks, half-orcs, gnomes, and maybe others too, for later publications.
Sky Sadly, that's exactly what's going to happen. We already know gnomes won't be in the PHB1, and that there will be less than 11 core classes, so some are disappearing. How else do you think they're going to produce a PHB every year ?
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Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 08/22/2007 4:48 PM |
| Posted By kyrin on 08/22/2007 8:25 AM
The biggest thing that disturbs me is that while 4.0 may indeed be a new game, I fear it will not be treated as such by the company. I fear it will be treated as the *replacement* for 3.5, not an alternative. There will be few if any 3.5 games at GenCon, for example.
JIM
aka kyrin
That's a very important point, if not the most important. Some say that 4.0E is a new game, but then why call it D&D ?
And kyrin is right for the rest, too. 3.5E commercially dies in may 2008, period. At that date, WotC will not produce anything anymore for 3.5E. And don't count on 3rd party editors, they're already selling low volumes, so with a diminishing public they'll quickly focus on the growing 4th edition. They'll keep pushing 3.5E products for a year at best, then it's curtains.
We (at least some of us) know what happened when 3E appeared. Yeah, we could still play 2E as much as we wanted... For a while. Try to find 2E players now, it's even hard in large cities. 3E killed 2E, and 4E will kill 3.5E, plain and simple. And that's exactly what WotC/Hasbro want.
| |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/23/2007 4:30 AM |
| Originally posted by PaSquall:
Sadly, that's exactly what's going to happen. We already know gnomes won't be in the PHB1, and that there will be less than 11 core races, so some are disappearing. How else do you think they're going to produce a PHB every year ?
Eeep! I didn't realize that. I'm not sure I like the sound of it.
| |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 08/23/2007 6:16 AM |
| | Just a detail : in the quote, I meant "less than 11 core classes" (and not races). I edited my post but I can't edit the quote. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/23/2007 3:16 PM |
| | It appears like it will be 8 core classes according to the most recent news. Fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard are the 4 class confirmed. 4 spots left, take a pick | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/23/2007 3:27 PM |
| Ranger, Sorcerer, Druid and Bard
That would drop monk, barbarian and Paladin.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/23/2007 3:28 PM |
| | I don't think they'll dare drop the paladin. He's too much of a... uh, well, holy warrior. You can't touch the holy and hope to survive for long. That's just how it goes. | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/23/2007 7:10 PM |
| | well, perhaps they drop the bard or Ranger instead... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
kyrin
Commander
3146 Posts
| | 08/23/2007 8:21 PM |
| I wouldn't mind if they made the Paladin a prestige class. Be sad to see the monk and barbar go...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
zenthrus
Commander
4680 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 08/23/2007 10:31 PM |
| I have a sneaking suspicion that gnomes got the axe....
Playtest Report #2
Relevant text:
"I was playing with Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell, and Toby Latin-Stoermer (our resident non-WotC employee). Our characters were Karhun (originally a warblade/warmage played by Rich), Infandous (an elan psion played by Bruce), Hammer (a warforged paladin played by Toby), and Dessin (a chaos gnome warlock played by myself).
Conversion was far from 100% accurate. Not only have the classes changed, but we’re also using plenty of stuff that wasn’t in the playtest document. Several of us needed new races." [emphasis mine]
Several indicates more than one (technically it indicates more than two). So, you have an Elan (not surprising), an unspecified warblade (presumably human), a warforged (which is later referenced as being "kinda broken"), and a chaos gnome. Assuming that the human and warforged retained their races, we have an Elan (psionic-specific) and Chaos Gnome (Eberron Gnome) that didn't have equivs.
It's not a smoking gun, but it is a sad indicator....
On the flip side, it seems paladins survived the change. Warlocks could be core now (since there was no mention of converting the warlock...granted, the omission could mean anything). Warblades and Psions aren't core (not surprising at all). | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/24/2007 1:05 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/23/2007 3:27 PM
Ranger, Sorcerer, Druid and Bard
That would drop monk, barbarian and Paladin.
I wouldn't have a problem with monk's being left out of the core books. They've never felt like they fit in with the fantasy genre.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/24/2007 3:45 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/23/2007 3:28 PM
I don't think they'll dare drop the paladin. He's too much of a... uh, well, holy warrior. You can't touch the holy and hope to survive for long. That's just how it goes.
There is a post over at Hordelings which states the Paladin is staying.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/24/2007 6:14 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/24/2007 3:45 AM Posted By Skyscraper on 08/23/2007 3:28 PM
I don't think they'll dare drop the paladin. He's too much of a... uh, well, holy warrior. You can't touch the holy and hope to survive for long. That's just how it goes. There is a post over at Hordelings which states the Paladin is staying.
What's the source? I can't access Hordelings anymore. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 08/24/2007 6:24 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 08/24/2007 6:14 AM Posted By Ghendar on 08/24/2007 3:45 AM Posted By Skyscraper on 08/23/2007 3:28 PM
I don't think they'll dare drop the paladin. He's too much of a... uh, well, holy warrior. You can't touch the holy and hope to survive for long. That's just how it goes. There is a post over at Hordelings which states the Paladin is staying. What's the source? I can't access Hordelings anymore. 
EnWorld. Don't know which thread though. I can't get EnWorld from work. | |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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