The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
    
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 08/24/2007 6:30 AM |
| | Think they will come back for 4E? Kobolds being dragon based never sat well with me. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 08/24/2007 6:36 AM |
| | im sorry but i hope not. i like the lizard look to them. if they want a dog faced look too them then create a new humanoid small race. id be interested in that. i really hope 4th edition doesnt recreate the wheel here. i understand the dragons are getting horns on noses and trolls/beholders look a little diferernt but i dont want dwarves with wings or spellcasters now to have "mydoclorians"-spelling in their blood and thats why they cast spells. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/24/2007 7:25 AM |
| | I always thought the Basic D&D illustration (the most iconic to me) looked reptilian. I wonder if they were in any of the White Box supplements? I should check for their first appearance. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10301 Posts
United States
| | 08/24/2007 7:50 AM |
| I do remember them as relatively dog-faced, and that's pretty much how I thought of them until 3e. I don't really care whether they're still reptilian in 4e, I kinda like some of the kobolds that have shown up in tangential products (like Deekin from NWN).
Dave | |
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Master of the
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/24/2007 12:14 PM |
| I kind of like Lizard-like Kobolds that speak Draconic.
I read Dragon Magic by Mongoose (years before WotC made one), and it has a pretty cool story in it about that.
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Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/24/2007 4:56 PM |
| | I prefer the reptilian kobolds as well. Their current relationship to dragons make them far more interesting to me than say goblins or orcs. | |
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Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 08/25/2007 12:44 AM |
| I think there were dog-faced kobolds in Baldur's Gate.
I like both types. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 08/25/2007 9:29 AM |
| Posted By Pedro on 08/25/2007 12:44 AM
I think there were dog-faced kobolds in Baldur's Gate.
The evil little yippers from Firewine Bridge 
Dog-faced/dragon-faced...it's all the same to me.
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5841 Posts
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/25/2007 4:27 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 08/25/2007 2:43 PM
I just like the way they die.
as long as they still eat the baby, I'm okay with whatever they look like.
If you don't get that, google "Kobolds ate my baby" It's a fun game. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10802 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 08/27/2007 12:16 AM |
| | I prefer the "draconic" ones over the old school scaly dog-faced Kobolds. | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/27/2007 4:04 AM |
| Wow, not much love here for little doggy kobolds.  | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Shottglazz
Sergeant
970 Posts
Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
| | 08/27/2007 10:28 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/27/2007 4:04 AM Wow, not much love here for little doggy kobolds.
The old dog-faced ones were the best! Why did they change them? | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1395 Posts
| | 08/27/2007 11:26 AM |
| | The idea of linking kobolds to dragons is very odd. If they really wanted to link a race to dragons, why not choose lizardmen who already look a bit like dragons ? Oh, anyway... | |
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Kepler
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 08/27/2007 11:44 AM |
| | I never cared much for Kobold. So I don't care that much. However, I would like to see orcs go back to being green pigmen-like creatures. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/27/2007 11:47 AM |
| Didn't the 1E kobold have some reptilian features? I have a fuzzy memory of the kobold MM pitcure. (I remember he looked like a dork  ) | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/28/2007 4:31 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/27/2007 11:47 AM Didn't the 1E kobold have some reptilian features? I have a fuzzy memory of the kobold MM pitcure. (I remember he looked like a dork )
I've never been fond of the 1e MM kobold art. I've always prefered the art from the Basic book. Same goes for orcs from 1e MM. I actually prefer the way they look now. It's much more feral and ferocious looking. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/28/2007 7:12 AM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 08/27/2007 11:26 AM
The idea of linking kobolds to dragons is very odd. If they really wanted to link a race to dragons, why not choose lizardmen who already look a bit like dragons ? Oh, anyway...
they need a reason for the kobolds to not have been exterminated long ago. A powerful patron. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1395 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 10:01 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/28/2007 7:12 AM Posted By PaSquall on 08/27/2007 11:26 AM
The idea of linking kobolds to dragons is very odd. If they really wanted to link a race to dragons, why not choose lizardmen who already look a bit like dragons ? Oh, anyway... they need a reason for the kobolds to not have been exterminated long ago. A powerful patron.
That makes sense... | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 10:01 AM |
| | imagine if if the orcs in lotr movies had been pigfaced and looked the gamorrean gurds from star wars. yikes. im glad they changed the orcs as well. any of the old timers have their tsr monster cards. they were big cards that were before the monster manuel. one of them was a kobold and i could swear it was lizard like | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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Kepler
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 11:28 AM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 08/28/2007 10:01 AM
imagine if if the orcs in lotr movies had been pigfaced and looked the gamorrean gurds from star wars. yikes. im glad they changed the orcs as well. any of the old timers have their tsr monster cards. they were big cards that were before the monster manuel. one of them was a kobold and i could swear it was lizard like
Nothing wrong with pig-faced orcs. I want orcs to llok like the D&D cartoon of the early 80s.
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5841 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 11:53 AM |
| | I also prefer pig-faced orcs to the planet of the apes orcs. | |
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Kepler
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 1:55 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 08/28/2007 11:53 AM
I also prefer pig-faced orcs to the planet of the apes orcs.
Yes they do look like apes. I thonght I was the only one that thought that.
I actually like the way the ape-like orcs look. They just don't look like orcs to me and I miss the pig-like orcs.
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 08/28/2007 2:08 PM |
| I find the "pig-man" orc vs. "ape-man" orc controversy to be quite humorous. Tolkein's described orcs as "swarthy" implying Arabic/Persian. Odd that Gygax et al morphed them into pig-men and ape-men.
Back on topic, I have a sneaking suspicion that Kobolds received the 3e facelift because certain game designers think it's really cool to play Kobold PCs. I really expect to see Kobolds as a core race in 4.0. | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/28/2007 2:36 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 08/28/2007 2:08 PM
I find the "pig-man" orc vs. "ape-man" orc controversy to be quite humorous. Tolkein's described orcs as "swarthy" implying Arabic/Persian. Odd that Gygax et al morphed them into pig-men and ape-men.
Back on topic, I have a sneaking suspicion that Kobolds received the 3e facelift because certain game designers think it's really cool to play Kobold PCs. I really expect to see Kobolds as a core race in 4.0.
I'm in favor of Dead orcs, personally. 
Kobolds may not be core, but I bet they have a "For players" section in the MM
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/29/2007 3:51 AM |
| | The only link between kobold and dragon I can think of is the 2E adventure, Dragon Mountain. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/29/2007 3:55 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/28/2007 2:36 PM
Kobolds may not be core, but I bet they have a "For players" section in the MM
Naturally.
And isn't that a basic theme to D&D these days? The idea that many monsters can be played as PCs. But that concept is for another thread. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/29/2007 2:03 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/29/2007 3:55 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/28/2007 2:36 PM
Kobolds may not be core, but I bet they have a "For players" section in the MM
Naturally. And isn't that a basic theme to D&D these days? The idea that many monsters can be played as PCs. But that concept is for another thread.
I'm still waiting for a campaign setting where soem of these intelligent races have an actual foothold. Hobgoblin communities, walls and government and all. The propensity of humans to dominate a world where we aren't even close to the top of the food chain is the last grand wall I'd wish to see broken.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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portermj
Warrior
326 Posts
| | 08/30/2007 12:22 AM |
| | Is that a sketch of a kobold in the Designer Diary? If it is, it must have been taking whatever the Harbinger Commoner took. | |
Do you like games John?
Absolutely! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/30/2007 3:55 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/29/2007 2:03 PM Posted By Ghendar on 08/29/2007 3:55 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/28/2007 2:36 PM
Kobolds may not be core, but I bet they have a "For players" section in the MM
Naturally. And isn't that a basic theme to D&D these days? The idea that many monsters can be played as PCs. But that concept is for another thread. I'm still waiting for a campaign setting where soem of these intelligent races have an actual foothold. Hobgoblin communities, walls and government and all. The propensity of humans to dominate a world where we aren't even close to the top of the food chain is the last grand wall I'd wish to see broken.
I prefer "default" D&D worlds to be human and demi-human dominated. Yes, I just used the term demi-human.
Now, I have no objection to having a nation or two of other intelligent humanoid races. In one world I created, I had a hobgoblin nation run by a female queen who was more interested in economic domination rather than military domination. However, the world would still be predominantly human centric.
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Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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deadsmurf
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 08/30/2007 7:15 AM |
| I'm still waiting for a campaign setting where soem of these intelligent races have an actual foothold. Hobgoblin communities, walls and government and all. The propensity of humans to dominate a world where we aren't even close to the top of the food chain is the last grand wall I'd wish to see broken.
Eberron does this, there is a legally recognized nation of goblinoids called Darguun, though they do have towns and one major city, The country has a slave based economy- but they're not nessesarily evil - Just not nice. The "ruler" only has tenuous control of his nation. The various goblinoids are very clannish, but each race goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear does have a important role in the society. Orcs have a similar situation in another country, actually being quite respected in some circles for being the creators/founders of Druidic magic, and being a major economic factor as nearly the sole provider of a certain magical element. Kobolds are the odd ones out, they have no nation already defined, but they're still pretty cool (for more info read Keith Baker's DRAGONSHARD on wotc's site | | | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/30/2007 10:57 AM |
| Yeah, I've seen some traces of it, but for the most part, they are all still illogically human dominated. Not that humans shouldn't have a place, but they shouldn't comprise a dominant part of the population.
1 Human country, 1 Elven, etc. including evil groups.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/30/2007 11:20 AM |
| | I don't see human domination as illogical at all. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/30/2007 1:27 PM |
| | Really, isn't that the way it's always been? Although other races are always present and not rare, humans have always been front and center. | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/30/2007 6:29 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/30/2007 11:20 AM
I don't see human domination as illogical at all.
In all seriousness, no mocking or anything, Could you please explain how you see this? I flip throught the MM's nd see hundreds of races smarter, tougher, wiser, and more magically and physically adept than Humans. Heck some of these races commoners have more ECL than Elminster... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10802 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 08/30/2007 9:21 PM |
| | Hmmm.... an Adventure based on a "racial" war between the pig orcs and ape orcs would be neat. | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10802 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 08/30/2007 9:23 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 08/28/2007 2:08 PM
I find the "pig-man" orc vs. "ape-man" orc controversy to be quite humorous. Tolkein's described orcs as "swarthy" implying Arabic/Persian. Odd that Gygax et al morphed them into pig-men and ape-men.
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3191 Posts
Netherlands
| | 08/31/2007 3:07 AM |
| I prefer the following:
Kobolds: reptilian
Orcs: hairy piggies
Kuo-Toa: SHARKY!!!
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 08/31/2007 4:33 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/30/2007 6:29 PM Posted By Ghendar on 08/30/2007 11:20 AM
I don't see human domination as illogical at all. In all seriousness, no mocking or anything, Could you please explain how you see this? I flip throught the MM's nd see hundreds of races smarter, tougher, wiser, and more magically and physically adept than Humans. Heck some of these races commoners have more ECL than Elminster...
Because most of those races don't work well together thus precluding their ability to form such lasting governments.
Because most of those races even if they should form a government tend to only have a tenuous grip on such governments and tend to fall into civil war.
Because most of those races are evil and have been hunted by the good races.
Because most of the time they are fighting each other instead of trying to subjugate human realms.
Because most of those races don't breed as prolifically as humans.
Because Humans are the ultimate "adapters" We adapt to any situation anywhere. Not all other races can do that.
Just because an intelligent humanoid race is in the monster manual does not mean it automatically deserves a human-like civilization. How would you put all those races in one campaign world?
Because humans are more adept at magic than most of those other races.
Because some of those races live underground and don't want to live topside with the humans.
Because they are disorganized enough to be prey for other more powerful creatures.
because they are disorganized enough to be dominated by more intelligent creatures. These more intelligent creatures are not always bent on world domination and even if they are, they tend to lose power eventually eaving the race they subjugated in a state of chaos and civil war.
As I said in a previous post, I have no issue with one or two monstrous humanoid nations. I think Hobgoblins are a good chocie and I've always loved the Dragonlance Minotaur nation, but to have an entire campaign world where humans (with dwarves and elves) are the minority doesn't sound appealing to me.
You also have to understand that my logic in all this is still tempered by my early days in D&D. At this time, humanoids didn't have the capabilities that they have in 3E. I am still heavily influenced by that design concept, whether logical or illogical. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Bijan
Skirmisher
2 Posts
| | 08/31/2007 4:53 AM |
| I realy want to have pig faced orcs to! but i dont think that is going to happen since LOTR movies had ape orcs, and so does warhammer.
But just look at how fantastic that could be!!!
http://wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?t=3084 | | | |
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