yack
Commander
3270 Posts
    
Gatineau Canada
 | | 08/31/2007 5:28 AM |
| | I nevere liked the dragon type kobold... I was more a dog type kobold lover. Even though i play 3.5 they are not dragonkin to me. | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/31/2007 8:09 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/30/2007 6:29 PM Posted By Ghendar on 08/30/2007 11:20 AM
I don't see human domination as illogical at all. In all seriousness, no mocking or anything, Could you please explain how you see this? I flip throught the MM's nd see hundreds of races smarter, tougher, wiser, and more magically and physically adept than Humans. Heck some of these races commoners have more ECL than Elminster...
I think you can logically explain things however you want in an imaginary world. If you wish that the world be controlled by humans, Ghendar offered several logical explanations. Does it have to be that way? No. Can it be that way? Sure.
If you want the world to be controlled by monsters and humanoids being the hunted, you might have something very interesting to develop and a very cool and original idea to set up a homebrew campaign setting.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
| | 08/31/2007 8:41 AM |
| Posted By Cthulhufnord on 08/30/2007 9:23 PM
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
I couldn't tell the difference between orcs and goblins in LotR. I wish there were something somewhat prominent between the two. | |
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11004 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 08/31/2007 9:01 AM |
| | Well the Goblins of Moria had a very distinct look to them. I don;t think there were any Goblins involved in the large army sequences later on in the films.... | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/31/2007 11:11 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 08/31/2007 8:41 AM Posted By Cthulhufnord on 08/30/2007 9:23 PM
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
I couldn't tell the difference between orcs and goblins in LotR. I wish there were something somewhat prominent between the two.
Ah, i'm glad someone said it, all those years i've never wanted to admit this... :)
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/31/2007 5:05 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/31/2007 4:33 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/30/2007 6:29 PM Posted By Ghendar on 08/30/2007 11:20 AM
I don't see human domination as illogical at all. In all seriousness, no mocking or anything, Could you please explain how you see this? I flip throught the MM's nd see hundreds of races smarter, tougher, wiser, and more magically and physically adept than Humans. Heck some of these races commoners have more ECL than Elminster... Because most of those races don't work well together thus precluding their ability to form such lasting governments. Because most of those races even if they should form a government tend to only have a tenuous grip on such governments and tend to fall into civil war. Because most of those races are evil and have been hunted by the good races. Because most of the time they are fighting each other instead of trying to subjugate human realms. Because most of those races don't breed as prolifically as humans. Because Humans are the ultimate "adapters" We adapt to any situation anywhere. Not all other races can do that. Just because an intelligent humanoid race is in the monster manual does not mean it automatically deserves a human-like civilization. How would you put all those races in one campaign world? Because humans are more adept at magic than most of those other races. Because some of those races live underground and don't want to live topside with the humans. Because they are disorganized enough to be prey for other more powerful creatures. because they are disorganized enough to be dominated by more intelligent creatures. These more intelligent creatures are not always bent on world domination and even if they are, they tend to lose power eventually eaving the race they subjugated in a state of chaos and civil war. As I said in a previous post, I have no issue with one or two monstrous humanoid nations. I think Hobgoblins are a good chocie and I've always loved the Dragonlance Minotaur nation, but to have an entire campaign world where humans (with dwarves and elves) are the minority doesn't sound appealing to me. You also have to understand that my logic in all this is still tempered by my early days in D&D. At this time, humanoids didn't have the capabilities that they have in 3E. I am still heavily influenced by that design concept, whether logical or illogical.
Those are all salient points. Thank you.
I think the 1E effect has a lot to do with it as well. Thank you again. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Nyarlathotep333
Warrior
283 Posts
Alaska
| | 09/04/2007 2:51 PM |
| I liked the old school 'dog-faced' kolbolds. In fact, for the longest time - even after the release of 3.0 - I still envisioned them as such. The only reason I caved in eventually was that all the DDM Kobolds looked lizard-like.
I also don't care much for the Tiefling as a base class. It just doesn't make much sense that they would be that common.
I wouldn't mind seeing Orcs, Goblins and Kobolds as races though. It has always appealed to me that they could be good roleplaying opportunities to have them available as a class.
No matter what I'm not too concerned for D&D. I've always played with GMs who did things their way so I'm used to a lot of different ideas as to what a fantasy setting entails. I'll survive 4.0 and still be playing when 5.0 comes out I'm sure.
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Demonweb Called Shot: Myconid
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Champion of the Zombie Black Dragon
- N333
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
- Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
- Conan the Barbarian, on what is best in life
My Website - Be sure to check out my painted minis gallery!
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Zoons
Underboss
1066 Posts
| | 09/10/2007 8:54 AM |
| | I still have a metal figurine of a Pig-faced orc. I thought I must have mis-remembered that they were the orcs when I got back into D&D with the DDM stuff. I can remember twirling the little piggy in my fingers wondering why there was no analagous figure in DDM. I must say, however that the Planet of the Apes orcs seemed very natural to me at the time. I prefer them this way. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 09/16/2007 10:29 PM |
| I like my kobolds reptilian. Dog-faced Kobolds seem too silly for me. Kobolds need all the help they can get.
As far as orcs go, give me ape-like ones. If I wanted pig-faced humanoids, I'd stat out some Moblins. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
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berus316
Sergeant
656 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 09/17/2007 7:48 AM |
| I like reptilan kobolds.... not sure about them speaking draconic, makes the language a little to common and loses a bit of mystery.
though I am loving the Paizo Pathfinder goblins... kinda mixing a bit of gremlin into the goblins of old. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 09/17/2007 8:27 AM |
| Moblins are monsters that populated a great many of the Legend of Zelda games.
Here's an image from the more stylized Wind Waker game: http://www.rpgdreamer.com/pics/zelda/moblin.jpg
As you can see, they're quite piggish. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 09/17/2007 9:49 AM |
| In other games, they were much more humanoid. Like I said, Wind Waker was a very stylized game.
Here's a picture of one from Ocarina of Time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Moblin.jpg
Much more humanoid than the Wind Waker version.
Here's another creature whose concept that has changed since past editions: the Beholder.
Personally, I'm a fan of the more skull-shaped ones we have today as opposed to the completely spherical ones of yore. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 09/17/2007 11:43 AM |
| | They change from game to game, but they've almost always been piggish as a whole. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
| | 09/17/2007 12:13 PM |
| | Heheh. Fair enough, just hadn't heard of em, but knew what they were once I saw the link. Thanks. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Kepler
Sneak
62 Posts
| | 09/19/2007 1:44 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 08/31/2007 8:41 AM Posted By Cthulhufnord on 08/30/2007 9:23 PM
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
I couldn't tell the difference between orcs and goblins in LotR. I wish there were something somewhat prominent between the two.
There is no difference between goblins and orcs in LOTR. Those are two words for the same species. I believe a note in the Hobbit says that orc is the english translation of orc (which is a Hobbit word). | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6934 Posts
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11004 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/20/2007 9:37 PM |
| Posted By Kepler on 09/19/2007 1:44 PM Posted By greyhaze on 08/31/2007 8:41 AM Posted By Cthulhufnord on 08/30/2007 9:23 PM
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
I couldn't tell the difference between orcs and goblins in LotR. I wish there were something somewhat prominent between the two. There is no difference between goblins and orcs in LOTR. Those are two words for the same species. I believe a note in the Hobbit says that orc is the english translation of orc (which is a Hobbit word).
Are you sure? I could have sworn that the Goblins were the smaller Orcs who lived underground and in caves. Goblins were the critters encountered in the Hobbit.... i'll have to re-read it and see if they used orc to describe them as well. | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Kepler
Sneak
62 Posts
| | 09/22/2007 1:22 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/19/2007 2:35 PM
Orc means orc?
Oops. Goblin is the English translation of Orc and Orc is a Hobbit word.
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Kepler
Sneak
62 Posts
| | 09/22/2007 1:24 PM |
| Posted By Cthulhufnord on 09/20/2007 9:37 PM Posted By Kepler on 09/19/2007 1:44 PM Posted By greyhaze on 08/31/2007 8:41 AM Posted By Cthulhufnord on 08/30/2007 9:23 PM
I rather liked the look of the orcs from the Peter Jackson films. At times one could see Planet of the Apes creeping in a bit, but also the goblins from Legend.
I couldn't tell the difference between orcs and goblins in LotR. I wish there were something somewhat prominent between the two. There is no difference between goblins and orcs in LOTR. Those are two words for the same species. I believe a note in the Hobbit says that orc is the english translation of orc (which is a Hobbit word). Are you sure? I could have sworn that the Goblins were the smaller Orcs who lived underground and in caves. Goblins were the critters encountered in the Hobbit.... i'll have to re-read it and see if they used orc to describe them as well.
The explanation is in a notes page in the Hobbit (just before the story starts). It does mention that the larger goblins are called hobgoblins, but I don't think that the term hobgoblin is used in the story.
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minatoman38
Underboss
1363 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 09/23/2007 4:52 PM |
| Well with around about 200 kobolds in my miniature collection I would not welcome a change in their appearance. Back when they were dog faced I generally didn't use them anyway...my players were all dog lovers...the once or twice I tried to use them but nobody would kill them. Orcs as above. Have way too many ape like orc minis and very few gammorean guards. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/24/2007 3:42 PM |
| | I'm indifferent, as ar as minis go. If they change it, there will be new minis out that match the new look. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 09/25/2007 11:54 AM |
| I expect the art to change on most monsters, and even on the PC-type minis. (Thus the new infamous anime-style weapons? Maybe.) It would be crazy for them to not do that. They found how to get the skirmishers to buy new minis by creating a 2.0 version. Now they need to get the RPGers and collectors to follow suit, and the only way to do that is to change the look of the creatures.
Of course, as a RPGer i can decide to stick with the old style while using the new stats, which is what i hope to be able to do mostly, but i know i won't be able to resist to all new minis. Still, they'll sell much more by changing the looks. So i expect orcs and kobolds and dragons and everything to change at least slightly in style, and have a coherent new style that will be distinguishing enough that people will be able to clearly identify old minis and say that they don't fit with the new style anymore.
Now i hear some people grumbling about this while i think this is OK. I'm the consumer and i'm the one that decides to buy or not to buy a product. If i like the new style, so be it. If not, i'll stick with the minis i have, of which i have more than enough anyway.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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moonglum
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 10/11/2007 4:50 PM |
| Kobolds: In the first edition monster manual they were reptillian with dog like faces. This flew in the face of the fact that they were classified as 'giant class' along with goblins, orcs, and titans. I liked the MM1 illustration. I thought that they were cute. It is still how I picture kobolds. I like that the new kobolds (dragon kindred) have more history. I find the fact that one of the weakest monsters shares kinship with one of the most powerful ironic and beautiful.
Orcs: Pig orcs were dumb. Even in 1st edition I didn't like them and instead preferred to think of them as looking like the orcs in the many Tolkien illustrations, particularly the brothers Hildenbrandt. I really really dig the planet of the apes orcs, mostly because I love all things ape-like. I have even created an entire empire in my homebrew world ruled by these type of orcs, which I call 'simian' orcs. There are also the mutated, underground dwelling 'cave orcs', ofcourse. I do not particularly care for the war hammer 'green skin' orcs. They are cartoonish and goofy. I would even rather have pig orcs than them. But in an ideal universe, there would definitely be simian orcs.
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