kyrin
Commander
3172 Posts
    
 | | 08/26/2007 8:41 PM |
| So, has anyone heard about the ultimate fate of grappling in 4.0? Y'know, it's really not that hard...
JIM
aka kyrin
| |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/26/2007 9:08 PM |
| | It's not that hard, but I pull out the grappling rules every time I try a grapple just the same. If I'm checking to make sure that I've got it right then a lot of people are too. If their target consumer is younger than I am and with less patience, maybe they're looking to eliminate anything even mildly complicated - certainly anything that gets looked up most of the time that it's used. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|
Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 08/26/2007 11:03 PM |
| Posted By Star on 08/26/2007 9:08 PM
If their target consumer is younger than I am and with less patience, maybe they're looking to eliminate anything even mildly complicated - certainly anything that gets looked up most of the time that it's used. Pity, that. There goes grappling, polymorphing (of any type), and virtually the entire magic system (except for very streamlined, static spells like Mage Armor).
| |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/27/2007 2:28 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 08/26/2007 11:03 PM
Pity, that. There goes grappling, polymorphing (of any type), and virtually the entire magic system (except for very streamlined, static spells like Mage Armor).
Polymorphing spells and any spell with more than a paragraph to explain might go, but I would expect that there will be more than just the static spells. Have you ever seen someone's eyes light up when they get to roll 10d6 (or more)  fireball damage? If I'm right about the target audience spells that blow stuff up are here to stay. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/27/2007 4:02 AM |
| Posted By kyrin on 08/26/2007 8:41 PM
 Y'know, it's really not that hard...
Neither was THAC0.
However, grapple is one of those mechanics that I'm certain can be improved. I'm hoping that's the case.
The problem with grapple for my group was that it was used so infrequently, we had to literally look up the rules any time it was used. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/27/2007 5:22 AM |
| | I have yet to see a system that handles hand-to-hand combat elegantly. The grapple rules aren't difficult. People are either lazy or stupid if the can't handle them. The subsystem that needs work is the turning undead mechanic, it shouldn't be based off HD, it should be based off CR. The designers really dropped the ball on that one. | |
| |
|
Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| |
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/27/2007 7:51 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 08/27/2007 5:27 AM
Also, CR needs to be fixed.
Badly! And the SAGA version is not better at all, I think it's worse. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 08/27/2007 8:14 AM |
| THACO was a game-design embarassment. "Why the heck would I even WANT to hit armor class zero? My armor has a negative value? WTF?". Sure, it wasn't all that hard to understand, but very few people wanted to. It was just that dumb.
The problem with Grapple is not that it's too complicated, it's that its rules are unnecessarily convoluted without adding anything to the fun factor of the game in the process. "Take an attack of opportunity, unless you have X, now take some stupid value Y (which is a composite of values A, B, C and occasionally D), compare it to your opponent's value Z (after you've calculated it the same way), now figure out if the grapple works. It did - great! Now what? Read subsections 1-5 to find out how subsequent turns are handled in a grapple."
Grapple should have a max of two dice rolls associated with it and much fewer exceptions/conditions associated with it. It should be a quick, fun thing to do in the right situation, not a game-stopping decision with a zillion conditions. | |
| |
|
GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 08/27/2007 8:16 AM |
| | They've already explained that CR will be much closer to character class level. That is, five CR 6 baddies will be a good, equal counter to a party of five players with an average class level of 6. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
|
Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 08/27/2007 9:01 AM |
| Grapple should be figured out based on pluses (above medium)/minuses (below medium) on your character sheet or in the monster's description (this should already include size modifiers and multiple leg modifiers). You take your AoO to do it (without improved) you each roll, highest score wins. It's what comes after that that gets complicated, and I believe it's complicated because it's a hold, you shouldn't be able to do anything other than try to break free (to reward the grappler) and you can't just have someone instantly killed in a grapple (to punish the target) so the grapple dance begins... there should just simply be feat style things you can do with a grappled character and then it's done. Stuff like pin, throw, rend.
Yeh, about Saga's CRs... Destroyer Droid CR4 WTF??
So, how will you know which single BBEG would be a good match vs 5x good guys? | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
wicked cool
Underboss
2151 Posts
| | 08/27/2007 10:14 AM |
| | i hope they simplify it a little. remeber the jump rules in 3.0. Game does not have to be that complicated. i hope they dont eliminate rules like polymorph and grapple as they add a lot to the game | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/27/2007 1:09 PM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 08/27/2007 5:22 AM
The grapple rules aren't difficult. People are either lazy or stupid if the can't handle them. Â
Actually, the grapple rules are not explicit enough in the RAW. There is a flaw on the matter of the number of attacks that creatures with natural attacks have. See this maxminis thread for details.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/58/postid/686350/view/topic/Default.aspx
You'll note that the conclusion is that the rules are not explicit on
that point after checking with WotC's online help, which is not trivial considering that natural weapons are
rather frequent. I.e. the rules don't state how many grapple actions monsters have, in short.
Interestingly, the thread that had started with a statement by the poster that the grapple rules were easy if you put your mind to it, ended up in a convolution of interpretations by players on the rules.
So i think that stating that people are either lazy or stupid if they can't handle the grapple rules is a bit of an overstatement.
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/28/2007 4:28 AM |
| Originally posted by Skyscraper:
So i think that stating that people are either lazy or stupid if they can't handle the grapple rules is a bit of an overstatement
Yeah, it's overstated. It was meant to be. I just don't find them all that difficult. I didn't mean to imply that anyone posting here was stupid if they've had trouble with those rules. I apologize if some took it that way.
I need to look up all the special attacks when they come up in a game. I don't trust myself enough not to. I also look up evey spell every time I cast one, for the same reason.
I probably shouldn't post when work gets me grumpy. :/ | |
| |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/28/2007 7:12 AM |
| Posted By NightMoor on 08/27/2007 8:14 AM
THACO was a game-design embarassment. "Why the heck would I even WANT to hit armor class zero? My armor has a negative value? WTF?". Sure, it wasn't all that hard to understand, but very few people wanted to. It was just that dumb.
The problem with Grapple is not that it's too complicated, it's that its rules are unnecessarily convoluted without adding anything to the fun factor of the game in the process. "Take an attack of opportunity, unless you have X, now take some stupid value Y (which is a composite of values A, B, C and occasionally D), compare it to your opponent's value Z (after you've calculated it the same way), now figure out if the grapple works. It did - great! Now what? Read subsections 1-5 to find out how subsequent turns are handled in a grapple."
Grapple should have a max of two dice rolls associated with it and much fewer exceptions/conditions associated with it. It should be a quick, fun thing to do in the right situation, not a game-stopping decision with a zillion conditions.
I have heard (but have no actual proof) that Gygax designed it with ThAC0 in mind to make a game that would take a more intelligent person to play. Again, hearsay and rumor... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 7:18 AM |
| | Yay for anti-fun elitism! | |
I am not gone. | |
|
thekidxii
Sergeant
533 Posts
No Yack. I said.. we need a DM not BM!
| | 08/28/2007 7:36 AM |
| Yay for anti-fun elitism!
that is frick'n funny! | |
Champion of the dire hippo.
Audi Vide Tace
"Nothing matters but the weekend, From a Tuesday point of view" -Diamond & Zero | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/28/2007 9:27 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 08/28/2007 4:28 AM Originally posted by Skyscraper:
So i think that stating that people are either lazy or stupid if they can't handle the grapple rules is a bit of an overstatement Yeah, it's overstated. It was meant to be. I just don't find them all that difficult. I didn't mean to imply that anyone posting here was stupid if they've had trouble with those rules. I apologize if some took it that way. I need to look up all the special attacks when they come up in a game. I don't trust myself enough not to. I also look up evey spell every time I cast one, for the same reason. I probably shouldn't post when work gets me grumpy. :/
Hehe. No problem, i didn't feel less intelligent all of a sudden  Though i still need to look up the grapple rules when we need'em. For my defense, i'll mention that i've used them at most half a dozen times in all the gaming sessions we had.
I think the reason why people have trouble with them is that it introduces an alternate combat system. So you have the main combat system with which everyone is familiar since we use it all the time, and once in a blue moon we need to use that altrenate grapple system with its own rules. It's not that complex, but people don't remember it and that's why it gets frustrating.
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/28/2007 9:48 AM |
| The more I read what I posted the more rude it sounds. Not so much the lazy part, but definitely the stupid part. And with my grammar and punctuation I'm in no position to call anyone stupid. Actually I don't use that word much and I'm not sure why I felt it necessary to here. Oh well, such is life.
And now back to your scheduled topic. | |
| |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/28/2007 10:27 AM |
| Don't worry about it Kyle. We've all done it.
I once used the term "drone" in a general non targetted way to describe those that unquestioningly buy every book WotC puts out and I was threatened with banning because of it. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
|
wicked cool
Underboss
2151 Posts
| | 08/28/2007 10:38 AM |
| | if you have to stop the game too look it up every time it slows down the game. i use magic missile enough so i dont have to look it up. same with skills,etc. grapple and sunder should be simplified. it is just like the video . well at least for some of us. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/28/2007 11:07 AM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 08/28/2007 10:38 AM
if you have to stop the game too look it up every time it slows down the game. i use magic missile enough so i dont have to look it up. same with skills,etc. grapple and sunder should be simplified. it is just like the video . well at least for some of us.
I've found with some things that it's easy to overlook small details in the descriptions.  With magic missle players often overlook the fact that no creature can be more than 15' away from any other creature targeted by the spell. Most want to make it 30' as per haste.  And to a lesser degree that targets have to be designated prior to damage rolls and SR checks.  I just like to play it safe and make sure that I'm being accurate.
What video are you refering to? | |
| |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 08/28/2007 11:34 AM |
| I do love a good grappler... i'll never forget the day my reaping mauler waded into a cave with 3 advanced owlbears in it by himself and came out nearly unscathed after he grappled each and every one to death...
My group never thought grapple was weak again... and I made an owlbear feather boa to commemorate the day... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/28/2007 11:38 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 08/28/2007 11:34 AM
... and I made an owlbear feather boa to commemorate the day...
Ha! Good one
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/28/2007 11:45 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 08/28/2007 9:48 AM
The more I read what I posted the more rude it sounds. Not so much the lazy part, but definitely the stupid part. And with my grammar and punctuation I'm in no position to call anyone stupid. Actually I don't use that word much and I'm not sure why I felt it necessary to here. Oh well, such is life.
Yeah, sometimes things come out different than we'd want. No sweat as far as i'm concerned. I never actually thought you were being voluntarily rude, like i said i just thought the words went a bit beyond where they perhaps should have, i.e. an overstement. I do that too sometimes, though no banning threats on my scoreboard yet.
"Drone"... Ghendar, that was almost... eeevil!
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/28/2007 2:38 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/28/2007 10:27 AM
Don't worry about it Kyle. We've all done it.
I once used the term "drone" in a general non targetted way to describe those that unquestioningly buy every book WotC puts out and I was threatened with banning because of it.
yeah, I've gotten a bit heated on the WotC boards a time or two.
We've all been there. Just do like everyone else and Blame WakeXX.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/31/2007 11:18 AM |
| What video are you refering to?
At GenCon for the release video they used grapple as an example of unnecessary complications in the game. They had a table of players and one said, "I grapple the Troll." After a minute of finding the rules and then starting to read what happens the player shouts in frustration, "Forget it, I'll just swing my sword."
The complication of grapple made me just ignore it as an option on many occasions. Plus it seemed futile in most cases. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/31/2007 5:00 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 08/31/2007 11:18 AM What video are you refering to? At GenCon for the release video they used grapple as an example of unnecessary complications in the game. They had a table of players and one said, "I grapple the Troll." After a minute of finding the rules and then starting to read what happens the player shouts in frustration, "Forget it, I'll just swing my sword." The complication of grapple made me just ignore it as an option on many occasions. Plus it seemed futile in most cases.
You're not the only one... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
moonglum
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 10/22/2007 7:15 AM |
| If you try to grapple a troll, you should know that its probably not going to work. I had imagined that the player in the comercial was just tripped out on enthusiasm when he tried that. The fact that after looking up the grapple rules he determined that troll grapplin was a not too effective tactic shows the beauty and elegance of the current grappling rules.
Because grappling is something many many characters and monsters will do, I am absolutely certain that there will be rules for it in 4e. Even in fist edition people tried to do it, and the grappling rules in that edition were impossible. I believe that in 1e there were times that players tried to grapple things and I, lacking appropriate rules, just sneakily had the little kobolds constantly wriggle free. 'They're wirey!'
| |
| |
|
Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 10/23/2007 8:15 PM |
| | I too, hope that grappling isn't eliminated from D&D. It's an integral part of the game that just needs a little streamlining. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/25/2007 6:32 AM |
| I don't think it's possible to eliminate it, it's like saying that creatures can't run anymore. Grappling is just part of fighting.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 10/31/2007 2:09 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 10/25/2007 6:32 AM
I don't think it's possible to eliminate it, it's like saying that creatures can't run anymore. Grappling is just part of fighting.
Sky
Yeah, I would bet that it's streamlined a bit, with a Box on the PC sheet and in the MM that just says "Grapple roll"
Probably still opposed.
Or maybe they make it more Saga-ish and you have a grapple defense and a grapple attack. Hmm...
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 11/01/2007 11:41 AM |
| I hope that they don't have a separate set of rules for grapple. I would hope that you can use the usual battle rules and simply apply them to grappling, somehow. IMO that was the problem with grapple rules in 3E: you had the general battle rules, and you had a separate set of rules for grappling that no one remembered due to them being used infrequently.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|