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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1127 Posts
    
USA
 | | 09/13/2007 3:20 PM |
| I know it sounds silly, but I'm almost shaking with excitement/trepidation over these revelations (or maybe it was all of the Reece's miniatures that I just ate). Anyway, here are the links for those who are interested:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=205956
http://lavendereyes.rivkashome.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=6794
http://www.123hjemmeside.dk/Drakul/3654153
"the only really civilized place left is the silver marches..."
!!!??? | |
Completed Trades: Cha0tic g0od x2,IHawk x6,demagogue x5,jcnorris00,Sammael x3,Diomedes x3,Pan,Phoenix,samstephenson500,sage_raistlin,jai,simage,Lab Monkey x4,bugsy,Vulturedoodle,T-Bone,niolo,GreyOne,Kunimatyu,Mullins,ShivanWurm,berus316,Thenameless x3,Tysac,ksuvampire,Mama Cass,Metz,Zim x2,brucemc,Krush x2,Venport,RedneckDM,nycfarmkid,Corim Danex,Chad the DragonLordofAiur x2,Puggins,Izeya82 x2,Oryan77 x3,Zenako,Wayne,Vocenoctum1,Drakkengi,Username x2,lyus_sleyden,Cyberia,Star x2,xuthal x3,Qucalion of Celene x8,sam500 x2,Blob39,Keoki x2,hazel monday x3,emontedodger,Dargoth,Wraithborne,Anothermullen,Vrecknidj x4,Ghendar,Gunthar,shoesan,beurice,ckissee,kyrin,Khellrendros,GuJiaXian,Wolfgang,True_Blue,md3,stephengroy(MMT08),Teflon Jeff,GuJiaXian(MMT08),aries71,Count Dooku,Kat_Dawg33,oldben,TheChuck,hung4treason,relientKittenI I I I I I I I I I 0 I I I I I I I I I I Pending:
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 09/13/2007 9:34 PM |
| Ughh. I REALLY hope not.
The whole "Points of Light" thing is fine for whatever default setting they are using, but I would rather that it did not turn that way with the Realms. It really limits the possibilities of a campaign setting to have very few or no civilized areas. I think a metropolis type setting is a lot of fun.
So far, its not the rules changes that have bothered me about 4th Edition, its things like this. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/13/2007 9:52 PM |
| I don't approve. They can change all the mechanics they want - I'll give it a try. Why do they feel the need to muck around with the history and backstory of everything?
I thought the 1000 points of light was BS the last time I heard it too. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 09/13/2007 11:55 PM |
| I guess it depends on the setting in question. The Realms, in my opinion, have always had a good balance of civilization and wilderness. The various nations and organizations and their relationships to each other have always been one of the things that made Forgotten Realms appealing to me. If they just suddenly decide to change all that, I think its safe to say that wouldn't dig it.
The whole thing about the "points of light" concept is that civilizations rarely contact each other. That means there is little trade, little exchange of information, technology, culture, and everything else that can result in conflicts that are more complex and interesting than a horde of angry monsters threatening to destroy a village. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/14/2007 5:33 AM |
| | This sounds completely silly. The North and Sword Coast are, by default, areas where this whole "points of light" thing can take place without any heavy handed retconning and changing by WotC. If this is true then it doesn't sound too good to me. | |
Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/14/2007 9:32 AM |
| Wow, is there no end to the carnage wrought by 4e?
At this point, I really wonder if there is anything else they could announce that would further alienate me. I guess I won't likely be buying too many more novels either.
Like others have said, the whole Points of Light junk would've worked well with little changing in several areas, but trashing an entire campaign World because someone stared too long at a Thomas Kinkade painting is just silly and ridiculous. | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10358 Posts
United States
| | 09/14/2007 12:47 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/14/2007 9:32 AM
Wow, is there no end to the carnage wrought by 4e?
Hmmm, I have always suspected that 4e was simply a code for "Chuck Norris," and now, seeing the devastation, I know it to be true.
I have the 3e FR stuff, and, though I don't specifically play or DM an FR campaign, I've found all the reading to be fun. I use some of the feats, magic, monsters, etc., and I have tapped into a few of the cities for juicy additions to my own campaign.
Honestly, I don't mind the changes. I like the Points of Light concept and have always rather enjoyed settings of that sort. So, if FR gets a retooling, it's okay by me.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4908 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 09/14/2007 2:15 PM |
| The Points of Light concept is pretty misguided. It completely disregards mercantilism and the underlying structural realities necessary for trade networks to evolve. It's too limited in its scope to offer a compelling setting. One of the reasons that FR has such a strong following is precisely because of its very strong cohesion and underlying logic (particularly in terms of integral trade networks).
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/15/2007 7:59 AM |
| There are a lot of changes going on in te FR now so regardless of the editio change, changes were coming. Blackstaff is dead, the march of Evermeet back to cormanthor, the current storyline in Thay...
The only constant is change. They even refer to Elminster dying on more than one occasion... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
| | 09/15/2007 10:28 AM |
| | Some thoughts about mercantilism and Points of light: First, lone merchant travelling between towns with a carriage is putting himself in huge risk. There's trade going on between cities, but it is done mostly by large armed caravans, or perhaps mages or otherwise magical means; If there's a large trade route, there might be a permanent gate built between cities, using which costs and is source of income to the city. Some shorter routes might be safe during daytime. Or maybe trade is partially handled by Gnomish airships? Anyway, there's still lots of possibilities for trading. | |
Vindicated AtG Called shot: 2nd Huge Red Dragon
My collected trade reference links
Star Wars tactical combat -project
My modelling/terrain pages
Suomen miniatyyrikeräilijät / Miniature collectors of Finland | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 09/15/2007 7:25 PM |
| From a sales and creativity perspective this is a BRILLIANT idea! The realms is my hands down favorite setting. I own at least 1 copy of every book, adventure, campaign book and everything else ever made for it. It's got a couple of problems though and I think 3rd edition sales showed the designers that. First off, its all been done in print. They are running out of impactful design space to peddle. The core areas all have multiple books about them, and the fringe areas are not that intersting. Second, It's so full of 20+ level heroes, what are 1st level characters needed for? You can barely chuck a rock with out hitting a chosen of god X, a harper agent, and two good archmages! Having a 100 year gap gives players of the current stuff a huge cushion to work with, but lets the world reset in a lot of ways to offer new design space. You can have the best of both worlds: If you like the old realms theres hundreds of resources already and a long time frame to play with, and if you want the new realms you can have that as well!
Still I'm a bit nervous to lose the familiar friends of the realms like everyone else. It's gonna be interesting! | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/15/2007 10:16 PM |
| It could be that they've done everything that they could do with the Forgotten Realms. If that's the case then design a new campaign setting or concentrate on Planescape or something else they haven't used in a while. Why burn down the Forgotten Realms and start over?
Oh yeah - Drizzt has to live somewhere. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1127 Posts
USA
| | 09/17/2007 6:07 PM |
| Ed Greenwood replies to the questions, "But I hope Ed can tell us this much: was this change "his idea"? Or is he along right now mainly to do damage control and try to salvage SOMETHING?"
"Not, it was not my idea.
However, before every scribe or Realms fan everywhere grabs that comment and shouts, “See! They’re ruining the Realms and Ed Greenwood hates what they’re doing!” I would ask everyone to remember that I walked this particular plank back in 1986, when I sold rights to the Realms to TSR, ceding artistic control of the setting.
From that day to this, except when I “get in first” to paint the picture of a person, place, or country in the Realms, I have been watching other people do things I might not have ever thought of, or agreed with, to the Realms, and exploring the consequences.
It’s what we all (“we” being everyone who works on the Realms, from artists who do line drawings for product interiors to Bob and Elaine as novelists to Eric and George as “lore lords”) DO: poke the Realms in various ways and see what happens. That’s what makes the world seem alive, the constant change.
Most humans hate most change. All of us can recall things (the house or neighbourhood or town where we grew up, perhaps) that have changed so much they’re “gone” for us; our remembered thing has been changed too much for us to accept it as the original. This could, yes, happen with the Realms, just as with every other thing. As I said before, we can’t tell yet (yes, that includes me, because I haven’t seen enough of the so-called “new Realms” yet). Yet riding this magnificent horse that gallops in different and often-surprising directions is what I do, and have done for four decades now, two of them in print with TSR and now Wizards.
I’m sticking with the horse for now, because I know it and love it and we’ve ridden far together. Bailing right now, at full gallop, would be painful, and I’d be left behind and never get to see what neat new places it will reach.
With that said, let me say how moved I am by the anger and upset various scribes have shown here in their postings. You care about the Realms so much. Thank you for that.
I understand your hurt. I have felt it too, over and over, down the last twenty years, and believe me I feel it now, as characters get whacked and I face the prospect, that I’ve been fending off with potions of longevity for as long as I could, of others dying of old age before I ever get to really tell their stories.
I see the risk Wizards is taking, and sure hope it pays off. Whatever happens, I intend to go on sharing the Realms with gamers and readers for as long as I last. I am hard at work on future Realms goodies now, and am acutely aware of the Border Kingdoms and the unpublished city of Teziir and other things too long neglected.
If you need to vent, if you want to talk, I’m here (well, not HERE, but reachable via the Lovely Lady Hooded). I’ve been talking with many of you already about what to do in your own campaigns, and would like to remind everyone that playing up to the Year of Blue Fire can take you ten REAL years (or even longer); my home Realms campaign is proof positive of that. So you can have the luxury of not changing anything right now, and watching the 4e Realms unfold in print, before amking any decision. Lore replies here and elsewhere can still provide guidance in the “Lost Years.”
Please remember that although Wizards of the Coast is a business, it is a company staffed by GAMERS. And fiction writers. They care deeply about the products they publish, and would work elsewhere (because there are many, many fields where creative people can get better paid than in gaming) if they didn’t. So, please, ease off on the Evil Empire talk and wait and see what they DO first.
I’ll still be here (I hope; certain editors have promised to murder me messily if I blow certain deadlines :} ) . I still care about the Realms; no matter what happens to it, I brought it into the world and want to be there and see what it does. I hope all of you will, too."
-from the Candlekeep Forum
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8518&whichpage=61 | |
Completed Trades: Cha0tic g0od x2,IHawk x6,demagogue x5,jcnorris00,Sammael x3,Diomedes x3,Pan,Phoenix,samstephenson500,sage_raistlin,jai,simage,Lab Monkey x4,bugsy,Vulturedoodle,T-Bone,niolo,GreyOne,Kunimatyu,Mullins,ShivanWurm,berus316,Thenameless x3,Tysac,ksuvampire,Mama Cass,Metz,Zim x2,brucemc,Krush x2,Venport,RedneckDM,nycfarmkid,Corim Danex,Chad the DragonLordofAiur x2,Puggins,Izeya82 x2,Oryan77 x3,Zenako,Wayne,Vocenoctum1,Drakkengi,Username x2,lyus_sleyden,Cyberia,Star x2,xuthal x3,Qucalion of Celene x8,sam500 x2,Blob39,Keoki x2,hazel monday x3,emontedodger,Dargoth,Wraithborne,Anothermullen,Vrecknidj x4,Ghendar,Gunthar,shoesan,beurice,ckissee,kyrin,Khellrendros,GuJiaXian,Wolfgang,True_Blue,md3,stephengroy(MMT08),Teflon Jeff,GuJiaXian(MMT08),aries71,Count Dooku,Kat_Dawg33,oldben,TheChuck,hung4treason,relientKittenI I I I I I I I I I 0 I I I I I I I I I I Pending:
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3898 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/17/2007 7:26 PM |
| Thanks for that AnarionZelle.
Personally I dont think the 'points of lights' stuff is that ugly. Maybe because I'm running similar premise in one of my own games. [:p]
I'm surprised that they are doing so with FR instead of a new setting, but I guess FR is well branded and that influnces it. I will probably follow the fiction and see what unravels.
I'm most unlikley to use pre or post FR in my games so have less or little personal investment in the tales. I would be peeved about fluff books not 'compatable' with each other.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/18/2007 3:55 AM |
| It makes sense for them to use the Realms for this. Why create a whole new world when you have one right in front of you with huge cache? Yeah, it will annoy some fans (WotC is making a living doing that these days) but regardless of whether or not I agree with it, I do understand why they are doing it. For me? More and more I'm thinking that if I were ever to run a FR game, I'd probably go back to the first box set and start clean. | |
Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 09/18/2007 12:19 PM |
| If they utterly destroy Elminster, reboot can't be bad  | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
908 Posts
| | 09/22/2007 12:14 PM |
| | This points of light thing reminds me of Earthdawn. I liked earthdawn as a short diversion from DnD, but I'm not sure I want it to replace DnD. Hmmmm. Just going to watch and see what happens. | |
E-mail | Have/Want List | Reference thread
"Whatever you do, don't drop a blade barrier on a troll."
KOK smilinIrish, Not the Fightin' Kind
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/22/2007 7:46 PM |
| I wasn't planning on buying the Grand History of the Realms, but with this fast-forwarding/killing of tons of my favorite personalities/switch to points of light junk, I will now be picking it up as a swan song for the Realms and probably the last realms product I will buy. If you're going to mangle something, why not Eberron? Or something new?
I didn't mind the points of light thing so much until it enveloped the Realms. I guess I can take heart that we'll still have Drizzt and Elminster....Blech. El's OK, but Drizzt just needs to die. | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/22/2007 7:59 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/22/2007 7:46 PM
If you're going to mangle something, why not Eberron? Or something new?
My first reaction to this was "Yeah - noone would have minded if they messed up Eberron". The fact is that there are likely thousands of Eberron players and it wouldn't be cool to screw up their campaign world either.
I still say that they should have started a new campaign world or used one that they haven't really supported recently.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3898 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/23/2007 4:31 PM |
| | The whole points of light premise would of made it very easy to start a new world with | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/23/2007 6:46 PM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/23/2007 4:31 PM
The whole points of light premise would of made it very easy to start a new world with
Indeed. It would've been very easy to just start with a small hamlet and surrounding area and expand it with the typically generic setting stuff they use in modules and such. | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/23/2007 8:58 PM |
| | I understand wanting to use the Forgotten Realms for it's name recognition. It doesn't matter that they're going to completely change the product, so long as they keep the same name people will buy it. It worked incredibly well for New Coke after all. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/24/2007 8:29 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/23/2007 8:58 PM
I understand wanting to use the Forgotten Realms for it's name recognition. It doesn't matter that they're going to completely change the product, so long as they keep the same name people will buy it. It worked incredibly well for New Coke after all.
Haha, I'm gonna borrow that for a little while, giving full credit to the source, of course  | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/24/2007 3:16 PM |
| | Thanks. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1887 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/25/2007 4:53 PM |
| History of the Realms has some info on the new reboot... for example the last entry of the book talks about the spellplague and how it came about.
I bought it for some of the same reasons listed... it's the last hurrah... also I read a lot of FR so it's nice to have for reference. ohh, and it's a pretty book... even though it recycles most of the art in it (which I was peeved about). | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/26/2007 4:30 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/23/2007 8:58 PM
I understand wanting to use the Forgotten Realms for it's name recognition. It doesn't matter that they're going to completely change the product, so long as they keep the same name people will buy it. It worked incredibly well for New Coke after all.
Same goes for the name "D&D" They can completely change the game (which they will eventually do) and slap the D&D name on it and folks will still buy because the name is still D&D.
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Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/26/2007 4:31 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 09/25/2007 4:53 PM
even though it recycles most of the art in it (which I was peeved about).
I'm peeved that they waited until 4E was a done deal to start releasing fluff books. Should have started doing this years ago.  | |
Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/26/2007 8:10 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/26/2007 4:30 AM
Same goes for the name "D&D" They can completely change the game (which they will eventually do) and slap the D&D name on it and folks will still buy because the name is still D&D.
So long as they improve upon the original product and make it better people will still buy it.
I'm in no way convinced that the new Forgotten Realms will be better than the Forgotten Realms that I'm used to.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/29/2007 11:19 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/26/2007 8:10 AM Posted By Ghendar on 09/26/2007 4:30 AM
Same goes for the name "D&D" They can completely change the game (which they will eventually do) and slap the D&D name on it and folks will still buy because the name is still D&D.
So long as they improve upon the original product and make it better people will still buy it. I'm in no way convinced that the new Forgotten Realms will be better than the Forgotten Realms that I'm used to.
When enough people protest, perhaps they'll pull a Newhart and say it was all a dream and revert. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 09/29/2007 3:34 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/29/2007 11:19 AM Posted By Star on 09/26/2007 8:10 AM Posted By Ghendar on 09/26/2007 4:30 AM
Same goes for the name "D&D" They can completely change the game (which they will eventually do) and slap the D&D name on it and folks will still buy because the name is still D&D.
So long as they improve upon the original product and make it better people will still buy it. I'm in no way convinced that the new Forgotten Realms will be better than the Forgotten Realms that I'm used to. When enough people protest, perhaps they'll pull a Newhart and say it was all a dream and revert.
It will take a lot.
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Ghendar - Now snark free!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/29/2007 6:55 PM |
| What, admit a mistake? Never!!!!!
You don't see Shoe blogging that he forgot what the rest of the silhouettes were when he wrote the poisonous turkey clue do ya'?
Of course not. | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/29/2007 7:29 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/29/2007 3:34 PM
If enough people protest.................
It will take a lot.
If enough people protest they'll give them what they want and sell us 5th edition which will look and feel a lot like 3.5. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1127 Posts
USA
| | 10/05/2007 10:57 AM |
| From James Wyatt's blog
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13980465#post13980465
Rich Baker is not the devil (or a demon)
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As I said yesterday, I was very pleased to be the one who got to make the announcement about our change in plans for Eberron. I'm disappointed, though, that it has resulted in my being lauded as a hero while Rich Baker is being raked over the coals on the FR boards and mailing lists.
Rich spends more time on FR stuff than I do, and I spend more time on Eberron stuff than he does. But he and I are part of the same team, and we're on the same page with the decisions that are being made.
To start with, his post about demons and devils: That’s not entirely his doing. The idea of distinguishing demons from devils is something that goes back to the very first stages of Fourth Edition design. Rich is part of the story team I lead, and I was a part of, and supportive of, every decision about demons and devils he made.
Similarly, he's not the sole architect of the changes to the Forgotten Realms. Over two years ago, Rich, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans from our book department sat down together and hashed out the plan that’s beginning now to bear fruit. At GenCon 2005, the authors who are writing the novels that describe these changes (including Ed Greenwood) came to a top-secret meeting to discuss them. And in the end, it was a plan that was formulated and executed by our whole department, all the way up to Bill Slavicsek, and in consultation with the D&D Brand team.
The fact (unfortunate though it may be) is that Eberron and the Forgotten Realms are two different beasts.
Eberron is still a relatively new setting, and from the start it has taken a very PC-centered approach to events in the world. There aren’t a ton of high-level NPCs running around, doing the things that PCs should be doing. There haven't been world-shattering events that altered the world and demanded timeline advancement. Its novel line has told stories within the context of the setting without dramatically altering the setting. And its lore consists of a campaign setting book and maybe a dozen sourcebooks.
The Forgotten Realms is steeped in tradition. The setting is nearly as old as D&D is, and its lore consists of thousands of pages of printed material. We recently had the great pleasure of publishing a Grand History of the Realms that was compiled by a devoted fan, turning his hard work into a beautiful product that serves as an excellent compendium of much of that lore. That history includes the Time of Troubles, which served to explain the transition from First Edition AD&D rules to Second Edition. Realms-shaking events have been a staple of the FR novel line, and we've worked hard in the past to make sure that events in novels and events in game product stay in sync with each other. (Judging by the fact that I still hear stories about City of the Spider Queen every time I go to GenCon, I have to figure that a lot of those efforts have been very successful.)
In the Forgotten Realms, we have to account for the fact that fans will get up in arms when the game changes how infravision (now darkvision) works, because it makes certain passages in the first Drizzt novels nonsensical. We have to consider how our changes to the cosmology will affect the story told in the War of the Spider Queen books.
And I'm not saying that’s a bad thing. We love FR—really, we do. And we're making the changes we're making because we love it.
FR fans, we do hear you, too.
Just last week, my team (me, Rich, Bruce, Chris Sims, and Chris Perkins, who's my boss) had a long conversation about the changes we're making to the Forgotten Realms. We asked ourselves some hard questions about the direction we're taking, based on the questions you folks are raising. We discussed the directions that Rich and Bruce are exploring in the novels they're writing now, and talked about making sure that the new FR still feels like the FR we all know and love.
So we're not ignoring you. We just have to respond to you in a different way than we responded to the Eberron fans.
Partly that's because, quite frankly, we haven't started work on the new Eberron campaign setting. We've had meetings with Keith to talk about new directions, and he and I have both explored some new directions in our novels, but Eberron has a fundamentally different approach to its novel lines. He and I can tell our stories and let you tell your stories, and nobody has to worry about whether they're the same stories. We can change our tentative plans for the new Eberron book a lot more easily than we can change our FR plans.
For the Forgotten Realms, the decision has been made. It wasn't made in a vacuum, it wasn't made without any input from outside these walls, and it wasn't made lightly. We expected that there would be some outcry, especially during this period between when the word got out and when you get to see the new setting. But we're still confident that this was the right decision, and pretty excited for you to see what we're doing.
Why? Because our goal from the start has been to create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide we could—the best setting for your game. It's a setting that new players can approach with wonder, enjoying what's there without worrying about what used to be. And it's a setting that you established fans can approach with a renewed sense of wonder, recognizing the Realms that you love so much in its newest incarnation. We think you folks will enjoy the story of the transitions, the fantastic events that have changed the face of the world—but not its heart. | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 10/05/2007 4:53 PM |
| Thanks for posting that Anarionzelle.
I'm trying to keep an open mind as far as the 4th edition changes go. I really am. I don't have enough information about the changes to the FR setting to make an informed opinion about it, but I am just not happy with what I've heard so far. It just doesn't seem to be the same setting that I've been playing and running adventures in for the past decade or so. That's fine - there's nothing wrong with starting fresh with a new setting. But it's not going to be the Forgotten Realms and they shouldn't call it that because their marketing department told them to.
Maybe it will end up being great and all my old FR books will get sold on ebay. As it stands right now though my old FR books will still be in constant use and the new FR books will end up staying at my FLGS. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 10/05/2007 8:18 PM |
| Having taken a while to digest the information and get over the initial shock, I'm starting to like the idea of the big changes in the realms. Some of the story lines were getting a bit stagnant imo. Thanks to magic and racial benefits most of the big players can still be around if the designers want them to be, and a new cast can shake things up.
I look at the changes as a new "age" for the FR. The Netheril empire failed in ages past, but they still went back and wrote stories from it. They can do the same with the current age if they really want to so it won't impact the artists creativity that much. Currently the authors can only write about older events or in the crowded present. After the changes thay can write about ancient events, pre change events, events during the changes or right after, then post change current events. That gives them a lot of ground to cover and nitches to fill. Plus they get the bonus of being able to do some crazy stuff with the current times as there is a system wipe just around the corner. I'm smelling a Drizz't versus Predator storyline in the works. :) Seriously though they can do some cool stuff. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1127 Posts
USA
| | 10/07/2007 2:42 AM |
| http://www.enworld.org
Rich Baker discusses the reaction to the Realms' changes in his most recent blog entry.
On a different topic... I've been taking a real pasting on a couple of our message boards lately from irate Forgotten Realms fans. James wrote a very nice explanation/defense of what I've been up to (see James Wyatt's blog if you're interested), and I've been trying to figure out what I might add to that. I guess I'll add this:
If it was my goal to avoid criticism, here's what I would do: I'd tell you that I've decided to adopt every suggestion offered by folks currently expressing their dissatisfaction. I'd say that it's going to take a couple of months for me to go back and scrap existingRealms 4e work, so I won't be able to divulge details for quite a while while I try to atone for my stupidity. Then I'd do nothing at all and see how long it takes before people started asking me how it's going. It would buy me several months of no criticism, wouldn't it?
But it's not my goal to avoid criticism. I believe that the right thing to do is tell the truth, or say nothing at all. So that means that sometimes I'll say things that folks don't want to hear. When someone says "Don't drop 4e rules into the Realms, you'll screw up my campaign!" I'm only being honest when I say that it's just not an option to not bring Realms in line with the new D&D rules. I can't imagine what could possibly make us revisit that decision, so I'm just going to tell people what to expect instead of ducking the question or fibbing about what we're up to.
It's not that I'm not hearing you, it's not that I'm being condescending or patronizing or insulting or whatever other sinister spin I'm accused of laying down on the reader -- I'm just trying to let folks know in the most forthright and unambiguous way I can that we're committed on that particular part of the plan, and we're pretty sure that it's the right way to go for us, for D&D, for the Realms, and for (what we hope are) the vast majority of FR fans.
That's all I'm going to say on this score, because I really don't want to spend my blog space and time playing defense. I'd rather be looking to spill as many teasers, sneak peeks, and exciting tidbits as I can without getting my boss mad at me. | |
Completed Trades: Cha0tic g0od x2,IHawk x6,demagogue x5,jcnorris00,Sammael x3,Diomedes x3,Pan,Phoenix,samstephenson500,sage_raistlin,jai,simage,Lab Monkey x4,bugsy,Vulturedoodle,T-Bone,niolo,GreyOne,Kunimatyu,Mullins,ShivanWurm,berus316,Thenameless x3,Tysac,ksuvampire,Mama Cass,Metz,Zim x2,brucemc,Krush x2,Venport,RedneckDM,nycfarmkid,Corim Danex,Chad the DragonLordofAiur x2,Puggins,Izeya82 x2,Oryan77 x3,Zenako,Wayne,Vocenoctum1,Drakkengi,Username x2,lyus_sleyden,Cyberia,Star x2,xuthal x3,Qucalion of Celene x8,sam500 x2,Blob39,Keoki x2,hazel monday x3,emontedodger,Dargoth,Wraithborne,Anothermullen,Vrecknidj x4,Ghendar,Gunthar,shoesan,beurice,ckissee,kyrin,Khellrendros,GuJiaXian,Wolfgang,True_Blue,md3,stephengroy(MMT08),Teflon Jeff,GuJiaXian(MMT08),aries71,Count Dooku,Kat_Dawg33,oldben,TheChuck,hung4treason,relientKittenI I I I I I I I I I 0 I I I I I I I I I I Pending:
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Wraithborne
Commander
3727 Posts
West Virginia
| | 10/07/2007 10:37 AM |
| | My main issue isn't with putting 4e rules into the Realms. With 4e impending, updating the most popular campaign world ever is a no-brainer. I'm just hating the fast forward. I'm more interested in the goings on in the current Realms than I had been in years. With the Year of Rogue Dragons, the Return of the Archwizards, the War of the Spider Queen and others, my excitement for the Realms was at an all time high. Finding out that a lot of these story lines will likely be wrapped up as a footnote in the new Campaign Setting book has really put a damper on my enthusiasm. | |
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
-King Arthur
Life is pain and we have to scrape the joy out of it every chance we get.
-Rod Kimble | |
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AnarionZelle
Underboss
1127 Posts
USA
| | 10/11/2007 12:43 PM |
| From Christopher Perkins blog:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14049296&postcount=16
Re: Plagues
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For the past several days, I've been fighting off the plague that's creeping through the office. Congestion, runny nose, sore throat, restless nights. I didn't need to take sick days, but I've had just about all the chicken soup I can stomach.
Speaking of plagues, I'd like to use this blog entry to talk a little bit about the 4th Edition incarnation of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. For the past year, we've been seeding our books with hints of what's to come, but rumors and spoilers really started to fly with the recent release of The Grand History of the Realms (which advances the FR timeline by 10 years) and R.A. Salvatore's The Orc King. Both books make reference to something called the Spellplague.
Before I talk about the origins of the Spellplague, let me back up. As R&D began work on 4th Edition mechanics and world-building, we knew that decisions made would have a ripple effect on our existing campaign settings. For example, changes to the 4E magic system would require us to revisit how magic behaves on our shared worlds.
Two years ago at Gen Con, members of the R&D and Book Publishing teams (Bill Slavicsek, myself, Phil Athans, Rich Baker, and others) met secretly with several FR novelists (including Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore) to present our thoughts about 4E FR, gather feedback, bat around ideas, and talk about "the big stories" that could be told in novels. Following this summit meeting, Phil Athans (our manager of Book Publishing), Rich Baker, and Bruce Cordell started to put together a first draft of the 4th Edition FR Story Bible, which FR novelists could then use as a reference guide. This bible contained, among many other things, the first words written about the Spellplague.
The Spellplague is an event that allows us to incorporate 4th Edition elements into the existing scheme of the world. The Grand History of the Realms very briefly describes the events that trigger the Spellplague, so I won't steal that book's thunder here. However, I believe the Spellplague is a very elegant way to merge the current campaign setting with 4E. It allows us to keep all the things about FR that are good about the Realms and jettison the things that are bad for the Realms or haven't gained much traction with the FR community.
There are things about the Spellplague that we deliberately haven't revealed — yet. Once we realized the impact of 4E revisions to the FR world, we dove deep into existing Realmslore to find something that would enable us to merge 4E and FR in a way that didn't involve gods stomping across the face of Faerûn. And we found it. We even dropped a hint in the final print issue of Dragon magazine earlier this year. Don't believe me? Check out the "Unsolved Mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon #359. (Hats off to the fan on the FR message boards who actually picked up on it.)
We've also dropped a hint or two in recent book products, including Expedition to Undermountain (which ties the fate of Halaster to the impending Spellplague) and the adventure trilogy of Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, and Anauroch: The Empire of Shade.
Hints aside, I'd like to take a moment to share 10 important things worth knowing about the 4E Forgotten Realms:
(1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change.
(2) 4E FR embraces, at least in part, the "points of light" concept talked about on D&D Insider. There will be places in 4E FR that haven't been explored or mapped. Some of these "dark areas" may be explored in novels; most will be set aside for DMs who want to insert their own cool stuff into the campaign setting. In effect, the Spellplague allows us to put some of the "forgotten" back into the Forgotten Realms.
(3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't.
(4) FR novels will remain part of the FR canon. As with previous editions, DMs are free (even encouraged) to run FR campaigns that ignore canonical elements that don't suit their individual campaigns.
(5) Running adventures and campaigns in 4E FR doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge of Realms history. Anyone who reads the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide will feel like they can run a Realms-based adventure or campaign without treading on thousands of years of history. The Grand History of the Realms nicely encapsulates all of the setting's pertinent historical moments; the 4E books will focus more on the present and provide DMs with the tools they need to run exciting FR adventures across all of Faerûn.
(6) The 4E FR setting will have a smaller pantheon. In general, there will be less overlap in the gods' portfolios. Consequently, some 3E deities have been 'demoted,' effectively becoming agents or emissaries of more powerful gods. A handful of deities have been killed off. There are also a few new deities to fill holes.
(7) Elminster and Drizzt are still around in 4E FR, as are several other iconic FR characters (including many popular campaign villains). On that note, FR wouldn't be FR without the contributions of Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore. Two years ago, Ed and Bob expressed some initial concern about advancing the FR timeline; however, they quickly realized that the change gave them the "space" to tell more interesting stories, reveal some new characters, and write about some new places in the world. Ed and Bob are on deck to receive the 4E rules documents shortly, and in addition to his other FR commitments, Ed will be contributing 50,000 words to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide releasing in August 2008.
(8) Writing of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide began in early 2006 with the geography chapter, and we intend to have a complete first draft before the end of the year. The book's format is much more user-friendly; the book also features an index.
(9) 4E FR will receive a lot of continuing support on D&D Insider, in the form of an official wikipedia, regular Dragon® articles, Dungeon® adventures, and online tools (including FR race options for the D&D Character Creator). In all, there will be more Realms support online than we were ever able to provide in the printed magazines, largely because we're no longer limited by page count.
(10) Numerous individuals have contributed to the shaping of 4E FR. If you don't like what you hear, I urge you to point your accusing finger at me. I am the D&D story manager, so world design pretty much falls to me and collaterally to my team of designers (see my closing remarks, below).
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Closing Remarks
Some FR fans have accused Rich Baker of killing FR with this latest revision, probably because Rich has been R&D's voice to the FR community for the past several years (a role he fulfills voluntarily, I might add). I don't know anyone who loves the Realms more than Rich save Elminster himself, so let's not wallow in ignorance here. As I said above, there is no one person leading the 4E relaunch of the FR campaign setting. It's a team effort. Rich has certainly been involved in 4E FR from the start, but so have Bruce Cordell, James Wyatt, and others. Rich, Bruce, and James all report to me, so if you have issues, send them my way. That said, we in R&D are tickled by the "Rich Baker must be stopped!" campaign. In fact, we're thinking about getting t-shirts made. (Our "Scott Rouse must be stopped!" t-shirts are looking a bit worn out.)
Seriously, guys, Rich is tremendously invested in the Realms (his FR novel Condemnation made the New York Times best-seller list, ya know!). Please don't make him wish he was an Eberron fan!
Let me close by saying that we'll be shedding more light on 4E FR in the coming months (mostly on D&D Insider), as we get closer to the release date. The story we've cooked up for the Realms is really cool — I'm talking Hollywood blockbuster cool — and I guarantee that new fans and old fans alike will have good reason to play in FR campaigns.
__________________
Chris Perkins
Design Manager, RPGs and Miniatures
Wizards of the Coast, Inc. | |
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 10/24/2007 2:07 PM |
| | I saw these changes coming. The end of th |
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