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Wraithborne
Commander
3494 Posts
    
West Virginia
 | | 09/15/2007 10:42 AM |
| How Does 3.5 Work?
I realized yesterday that by working on DDM 2E minis and 4E RPG monster numbers, I've completely forgotten how 3.5 monsters work. I was working on one of the Monster Manual V monsters currently slated for DDM set 17, and I looked at it's entry. My thought process went something like this:
Wait. It's role isn't written down here. What is this guy supposed to do?
Is 53 hit points a lot?
Wait. I have to look up a feat? Why does this guy even have feats?
I will ask Dave what role this guy was supposed to be since it isn't spelled out for me.
And this was a monster that uses the new stat block. The old one makes even less sense to me.
So maybe I'm just lazy, or maybe I just don't have any perspective on what makes sense in 3.5 terms. I sure hope I don't have to go back and edit any 3.5 products, because I'll have no idea how to do that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, before I rip on the poor guy, what can we learn from this?
Something from MMV with 53 HPs will be made into a mini. I have yet to get the MMV, so I'll have to defer to someone else's wisdom on what it may be.
4e monsters don't have feats.
Now, the sentence that bothers me the most is this one:
Wait. It's role isn't written down here. What is this guy supposed to do?
I'm sorry, but that is just sad.
I sure hope I don't have to go back and edit any 3.5 products
As do I Logan, as do I. | |
The year: 1994. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Earth and the Moon, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin!
Two thousand years later, Earth is reborn...
A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Ookla the Mok and Princess Ariel, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Sunsword against the forces of evil.
He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!
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hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 09/15/2007 1:48 PM |
| "wait. It's role isn't written down here. What's this guy supposed to do?"
Man, that is pretty weak. I find that statement troubling for 2 different reasons.
Reason 1. If this guy can't tell what a monster is supposed to do without a how to guide, I worry if he's one of the guys actually designing 4E.
Reason 2. If this is how they're marketing the new game, the customer demographic they're aiming for doesn't seem too bright. It seems like this guy is saying "hey you! potential customer! you're an idiot.You clearly can't handle improvising. Let us run your encounters for you."
I could just be way off base. But it seems to support the whole "streamlined = dumbed down" school of thought. | |
Champion of Phanatons. | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/15/2007 10:11 PM |
| In addition to his job of statting mini's and whatever else his job entails he has a blog which is a forum to communicate with the public. That makes part of his job Public Relations. Part of that job is to promote the new product. He's trying to get more people on the 4.0 bandwagon by dissing 3.5. He probably believes that 4.0 is far superior to 3.5 but I'm not going to believe him until I see proof.
In a few years I might be sitting around playing 4.73 and laugh with my friends about how we used to have "Feats". Then again, I might still be playing 3.5 despite efforts like this. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1395 Posts
| | 09/16/2007 8:08 AM |
| Posted By hazel monday on 09/15/2007 1:48 PM
"wait. It's role isn't written down here. What's this guy supposed to do?"
Man, that is pretty weak. I find that statement troubling for 2 different reasons.
Reason 1. If this guy can't tell what a monster is supposed to do without a how to guide, I worry if he's one of the guys actually designing 4E.
Reason 2. If this is how they're marketing the new game, the customer demographic they're aiming for doesn't seem too bright. It seems like this guy is saying "hey you! potential customer! you're an idiot.You clearly can't handle improvising. Let us run your encounters for you."
I could just be way off base. But it seems to support the whole "streamlined = dumbed down" school of thought.
A big +1 here...
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Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1395 Posts
| | 09/16/2007 8:12 AM |
| How Does 3.5 Work?
I realized yesterday that by working on DDM 2E minis and 4E RPG monster numbers, I've completely forgotten how 3.5 monsters work. I was working on one of the Monster Manual V monsters currently slated for DDM set 17, and I looked at it's entry. My thought process went something like this:
Wait. It's role isn't written down here. What is this guy supposed to do?
Easy one : to be trashed by adventurers, like all his mates.
Is 53 hit points a lot?
Noooooo. With his special super combo multi new manoeuvres, half a round is enough for the group's fighter to utterly destroy it.
Wait. I have to look up a feat? Why does this guy even have feats?
Logan, stop it ! Or customers will never buy the "complete book of monster feats 1" slated for autumn 2009...
I will ask Dave what role this guy was supposed to be since it isn't spelled out for me.
Dave ? Dave ? Where are you ? I've got a question...
... What ? Not here anymore ?
... Ah, Dave's took a holiday. But when is he coming back ?
... What ??? March 2008 ? Ah, oh, well...
So maybe I'm just lazy, or maybe I just don't have any perspective on what makes sense in 3.5 terms. I sure hope I don't have to go back and edit any 3.5 products, because I'll have no idea how to do that.
I just hope for laziness...
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Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6589 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/16/2007 9:20 AM |
| I noticed that their opening ads they played at GenCon shownig D&D over the years were making fun of all previous editions. I thought this was a poor move when I saw them on the internet.
I think that the amount of hit points creatures and characters have will be going up, but this is just a guess.
4th edition is sounding so different that I don't think I like it.
It's taken my group over a year to get used to 3.5. I don't want to start the learning process all over--for those that DM nor for players. I don't care if 4th edition is dumb-downed so that it's easier to learn--I still don't want to go through the learning process.
Logan's job is PR. I don't think WotC is in touch with their target audience. I think they are just assuming everyone's going to like it a lot and aren't really thinking about the chunk of those who won't or don't. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/16/2007 10:01 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 09/16/2007 9:20 AM
I noticed that their opening ads they played at GenCon shownig D&D over the years were making fun of all previous editions. I thought this was a poor move when I saw them on the internet.
I agree. Most of the people who will but the new edition are people who bought the current edition (and in many cases the previous editions). You can't make fun of the current edition without making fun of the people who bought and enjoy it.
Making fun of your own product is an insane marketing strategy. Could you imagine a car company making fun of last years model in the hope that you'll buy this years model? No. They tell you how good last years model was and what improvements they've made upon it to make it even better.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7029 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 09/16/2007 11:41 AM |
| Meh, I see one man doing one piece of work. While it's not heartening, I'll wait for the finished product.
To quote an analogy I've heard recently...
"You can't just walk in in the middle of a surgery and freak out. 'Hey, why is that guy's heart not in his chest?' is not applicable. It's not 'What is it now?' It's 'Where will it be when it's done?' that is important." | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 09/16/2007 6:53 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/15/2007 10:42 AM How Does 3.5 Work?
I realized yesterday that by working on DDM 2E minis and 4E RPG monster numbers, I've completely forgotten how 3.5 monsters work. I was working on one of the Monster Manual V monsters currently slated for DDM set 17, and I looked at it's entry. My thought process went something like this: Wait. It's role isn't written down here. What is this guy supposed to do?
Is 53 hit points a lot?
Wait. I have to look up a feat? Why does this guy even have feats?
I will ask Dave what role this guy was supposed to be since it isn't spelled out for me.And this was a monster that uses the new stat block. The old one makes even less sense to me. So maybe I'm just lazy, or maybe I just don't have any perspective on what makes sense in 3.5 terms. I sure hope I don't have to go back and edit any 3.5 products, because I'll have no idea how to do that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok, before I rip on the poor guy, what can we learn from this? Something from MMV with 53 HPs will be made into a mini. I have yet to get the MMV, so I'll have to defer to someone else's wisdom on what it may be. 4e monsters don't have feats. Now, the sentence that bothers me the most is this one: Wait. It's role isn't written down here. What is this guy supposed to do?
I'm sorry, but that is just sad. I sure hope I don't have to go back and edit any 3.5 products As do I Logan, as do I.
Cheers,
Merric
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Merric Blackman
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
319 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 09/16/2007 6:58 PM |
| | Well, I can say without a doubt that the creature is the Shardsoul Slayer. It is the only creature in the book with 53 HP, and it has the Powerful Charge feat to look up, so I'd say this is pretty conclusive evidence. Those with the book can find it on page 150. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3494 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/16/2007 7:22 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 09/16/2007 6:58 PM
Well, I can say without a doubt that the creature is the Shardsoul Slayer. It is the only creature in the book with 53 HP, and it has the Powerful Charge feat to look up, so I'd say this is pretty conclusive evidence. Those with the book can find it on page 150.
Thanks dude....so we're getting this....
 | |
The year: 1994. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Earth and the Moon, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin!
Two thousand years later, Earth is reborn...
A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Ookla the Mok and Princess Ariel, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Sunsword against the forces of evil.
He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!
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| 
Bert the Troll
Commander
3827 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/16/2007 7:43 PM |
| I really dislike the attitude of dumping on older version to sell the next.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10717 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/16/2007 8:28 PM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/16/2007 7:43 PM
I really dislike the attitude of dumping on older version to sell the next.
Indeed, almost makes you want to go with another Fantasy Rpg doesn't it?  | |
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3827 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/16/2007 8:32 PM |
| Posted By Cthulhufnord on 09/16/2007 8:28 PM Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/16/2007 7:43 PM
I really dislike the attitude of dumping on older version to sell the next.
Indeed, almost makes you want to go with another Fantasy Rpg doesn't it?
LOL.
It does doesn't it. After all, 3.5 seems to be so unfun, it makes me wonder how good WoTC _really_ are at designing games  | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6589 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/16/2007 8:53 PM |
| Posted By Cthulhufnord on 09/16/2007 8:28 PM Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/16/2007 7:43 PM
I really dislike the attitude of dumping on older version to sell the next.
Indeed, almost makes you want to go with another Fantasy Rpg doesn't it?
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10717 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/16/2007 8:59 PM |
| | 3.5 has worked out allright for me too. Plus there are tons of great setting and scourcebooks out there for 3.5. Like Conan, Iron Heroes and that Monte Cook series. | |
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul | |
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Shottglazz
Sergeant
944 Posts
Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
| | 09/16/2007 9:05 PM |
| | ...and here I thought the "trash the old system" tactic would die when they killed off 2e... | |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 44 ): Pikel, Darrell, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x3, Wraithborne x5, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x3, Generic Fighter, Auric
Pending trades ( 2 ): Kilsek, Relientkitten
WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver
Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/17/2007 1:09 AM |
| | Sorry to drift off topic - but I have absolutely no desire to own a mini based on the picture in Wraithborne's post. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11088 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/17/2007 4:21 AM |
| Who the F is Logan Bonner and why should I give a crap about him or his opinion?
However, having said that and attempting to give the poor guy a small benefit of the doubt, is it possible this was all said in jest? | |
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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berus316
Sergeant
628 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 09/17/2007 5:25 AM |
| Personally, I like pretty much everything he said. I think monster's stat blocks are *way* to big, I'm not to sure they need a role, but since I don't know what they mean by role, I'm good with it so far. And I've never actually been happy with adding levels and feats to monsters so everything is sounding pretty good so far. Though getting a little sick of the doom and gloom around here...
IMO, 3.5 was better than 3.0 which was better than 2.0 which was better than 1.X, so odds are looking pretty good to me.
and a Shardsoul Slayer is a better mini over yet another good dragon. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304
H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11088 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/17/2007 5:28 AM |
| Posted By berus316 on 09/17/2007 5:25 AM
I think monster's stat blocks are *way* to big,
This I will agree wholeheartedly with and I look forward to this particular change.
IMO, 3.5 was better than 3.0 which was better than 2.0 which was better than 1.X, so odds are looking pretty good to me.
IMO, 3.5 was different, though not necessarily better than 3.0 which was different, though not necessarily better than 2.0 which was different, though not necessarily better than 1.X, so odds are from here on out D&D will change for better or worse. | |
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/17/2007 9:45 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/17/2007 5:28 AM
IMO, 3.5 was different, though not necessarily better than 3.0 which was different, though not necessarily better than 2.0 which was different, though not necessarily better than 1.X, so odds are from here on out D&D will change for better or worse.
Let's not start this again. :)
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 09/17/2007 5:31 PM |
| Great... Sounds almost like they're going back to AD&D style... Rumor #1 I said might soon be confirmed. ;)
Anyways, the version that you like will work for you, but no version is better than the other. One of my friends still runs a boxed set of DnD and says it's the only way to play DnD. Says 3e sucks. Back to old style initiative? | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11088 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/17/2007 5:41 PM |
| Posted By Kaya Kenobi on 09/17/2007 5:31 PM
Anyways, the version that you like will work for you, but no version is better than the other. One of my friends still runs a boxed set of DnD and says it's the only way to play DnD. Says 3e sucks. Back to old style initiative?
The problem I encounter is a sort of anti-old version D&D snobbery. I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I have encountered those who think that just because it's a previous version of D&D, it must be inferior somehow. That's why I say they were different but not necessarily better
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Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 09/17/2007 5:56 PM |
| | So far, 4e doesn't seem like an improvement, it also doesn't seem like something that appeals to me. I like 3e combat too much. Oh, it was so much easier in ADnD when the fighter was the only class with multiple attacks per round. ;) | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10717 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/17/2007 6:06 PM |
| Realy? I thought they were pretty much the same.  | |
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul | |
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