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Subject: What would it take?

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ckissee
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09/17/2007 1:09 PM  
I've seen a lot of discussion on here (and other sites) regarding the pending release of 4th Edition, with much of the discussion being of a complaining nature.  Since we are still at a loss for complete infromation, let's put a more positive spin on this:

What changes could WotC make upon the release of 4th Edition that would entice you to *want* to convert to playing it?

For me, I think the main thing that I would want to see is software (downloadable, preferably, but online would be ok) that allows to you utilize the information available in *every* supplement that you purchase.

For example, if I have a character generator, and I own the 4th Edition PH and some other 4th Edition supplement that adds new classes (etc.), then I can add in the fact that I own the supplement in order to be able to use the contents of that product in the generator.Â

Of course, the ability to do this should require little effort on my part and *no* customization.  I would prefer to have the ability to customize the software and add your own content available, as well.

What do you think?  What would it take for you to switch?

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09/17/2007 1:20 PM  
To be honest, I'd really like the books to cost less. While this is something that isn't limited to 4th edition, I'm tired of paying $35+ for a 150-page book (with about 20 pages of useful information). I'm not expecting $5 books or anything, but these things are being cranked out in print-runs of 100,000 and more, so dropping the price to $20-25 should be more than reasonable. Splat books should be $15-20 tops.

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09/17/2007 1:35 PM  
I would expect them to combine much of the extended information in the actual PHB and DMG instead of planning on dozens of splat books. I don't like the "must print a splat book every month" mentality. I would rather have solid work that they have put the time into getting it right the first time.

They have already announced that some races and classes that won't be in the original PHB for 4e will be printed in future releases.

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09/17/2007 1:57 PM  
Simpler rules, no modified fluff (too late for that, I hate re-modeling homebrew or continuing in the same universe that has suddenly and spontaneously changed), and as you said generators that work for what you buy! I hate subscription fees, HATE them. If the generator is downloadable/uploadable (can upload your characters to somewhere online for ease of download perhaps) even better. I also hate errata - please edit stuff more carefully, so many mistakes in the Saga books were just dumb.

1. Simpler Rules
2. No Modified Fluff (not as big of a deal for new campaigns, but sucks for conversions)
3. No Subscription Fees for things we've purchased.
4. A Generator (because no matter now much simpler the rules are, character generation/advancement could always be done faster and more accurately)
5. Little to No Freakin Errata or Edits


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09/17/2007 6:12 PM  
meh... I'm sticking with 3e.

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09/17/2007 6:18 PM  
Cheaper books that were still usable with the 3.0 and 3.5 material.

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New Britain, CT

09/18/2007 12:16 AM  
Posted By ckissee on 09/17/2007 1:09 PM

What do you think?  What would it take for you to switch?

My gaming group making the change.

Based on the limited information we currently have I would likely stick with 3.5 if it were only my decision.

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09/18/2007 1:21 AM  
Posted By Star on 09/18/2007 12:16 AM
Posted By ckissee on 09/17/2007 1:09 PM

What do you think?  What would it take for you to switch?

My gaming group making the change.

Based on the limited information we currently have I would likely stick with 3.5 if it were only my decision.


Agree with Star, what I hear so far 4.0 sounds cool, but we won't be switching until my group runs out of adventures (we got all "expeditions" still waiting for us).

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09/18/2007 3:47 AM  
My DM wants to switch, thus I will be playing 4E.

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09/18/2007 6:21 AM  
However, if I were dead set against it, the thing that would get me to play would be a design philosophy that acknowledges the past and doesn't seek to tear down what has come before it in order to move ahead. In other words, make future D&D products contain those elements that are unique to D&D, or at least some of those elements that started with D&D and make them work better in future product. Sacred cows, if you will. WotC's philosophy moving forward seems to be to discard whatever has come before if you can make a better game. My contention is that you can also make a better game by keeping some of the aspects that make D&D what it is.

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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29

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09/18/2007 11:13 AM  
Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/17/2007 1:20 PM
To be honest, I'd really like the books to cost less. While this is something that isn't limited to 4th edition, I'm tired of paying $35+ for a 150-page book (with about 20 pages of useful information). I'm not expecting $5 books or anything, but these things are being cranked out in print-runs of 100,000 and more, so dropping the price to $20-25 should be more than reasonable. Splat books should be $15-20 tops.
Print runs of 100000 are only for PHB and DMG (and possibly MM1). The other books have smaller print-runs.
But yes I agree that 35 euros (because for us europeans it's even worse - the books are 1,4 times more costly... Talking of FLGS, not the discounted prices of amazon and others) per book is far too much, that's 100 euros/dollars to just have the 3 necessary core books...
I'd be ready to have less art/colors in the books for this, even a sotf cover would be fine.


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09/18/2007 12:03 PM  

 And now, for the topic question :
I'm very happy with my 1E/2E/houserules hybrid, so my group and I don't intend to swich.
I sometimes play in another group, whose DM will probably swich, so I'll certainly be able to try 4E.
The question is : what should make me spend more time with the second group than the first ?
This :
- a complete departure from the previous editions. I mean if I want oldschool feel, I play my hybrid. I'd be interested in something really new (3E didn't succeed at this).
- Very rules light. 12 pages of rules, including combat, at most. Add 1 page per class, and spell, skills and feat descriptions. A 128-pages PHB should be more than enough.
- I'd be tempted to try a complete classless and point-buy system. Each time you level up, you gain some points that you can spend buying anything (skills, spells, feats, weapon mastery...) No limitation on this (alignment, etc.)
you could develop a "jack of all trades" adventurer, who can do almost anything (but low level in each), or a very specialized adventurer in his field (but cannot do anything else), and of course anything in-between.
- possibility to change what you got before (to a limited extend - discard and buy new skills... , with penalties).
- very simplified combat rules (no, I'm not a simulationnist).
- A nifty piece of software that I could buy for myself, which would have a detailed and configurable character generator, an avatar creator with billions of color/hair/eyes/dress/armor/weapons/etc. combinations, a quick sum-up of the main rules, spells, feats, treasure and skills lists, a simple to use dungeon/town/wilderness map creator, monsters artwork, other artwork (houses, temples, caverns, inns...) for players handouts, possibility to save the PCs and maps created. I'd pay the standard price of a new videogame for this, i.e. around 50 euros.

That's all I'm thinking at the moment. But I probably could find more.


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09/19/2007 3:07 AM  
A radical extension of the experience/character progression rules to change game strategy for different character alignments.
In 3.5 character progression requires the same actions regardless of your alignment.
Kill everything for the experience points and loot all the money/magic items you find. Thats a perfect M.O. for a Neutral Evil party. But Lawful Good should get character progression without killing everything that comes in range. Indeed killing things should be worth zero experience to a "Good" character...

Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything.
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09/19/2007 3:48 AM  
Posted By XAos on 09/19/2007 3:07 AM
Indeed killing things should be worth zero experience to a "Good" character...

Huh?
An orc horde descends upon the town and the paladin shouldn't get any XP for killing them?

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How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29

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09/19/2007 7:43 AM  
Posted By Ghendar on 09/19/2007 3:48 AM
Posted By XAos on 09/19/2007 3:07 AM
Indeed killing things should be worth zero experience to a "Good" character...

Huh?
An orc horde descends upon the town and the paladin shouldn't get any XP for killing them?

Nah, he should subdue the evil beasts and quote from the Book of Tyr until they see the error of their ways


Keeping it on topic, if the system had been reverse compatible, or at least easily converted (books and online generators and stuff) and I didn't feel like I was being squeezed for every dime I have and the digital content had been purchasable instead of something I would have to subscribe to and be online to use, I Might have considered it. Add in the fact that I'm still peeved about the 3.5 cash grab and not converting becomes an easy decision for me.

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09/19/2007 8:34 AM  
Posted By Wraithborne on 09/19/2007 7:43 AM
Posted By Ghendar on 09/19/2007 3:48 AM
Posted By XAos on 09/19/2007 3:07 AM
Indeed killing things should be worth zero experience to a "Good" character...

Huh?
An orc horde descends upon the town and the paladin shouldn't get any XP for killing them?

Nah, he should subdue the evil beasts and quote from the Book of Tyr until they see the error of their ways

Correct, a Paladin should get experience points for saving the Town.  Not for killing the Orcs.
Specifically that means if the Paladin kills 10,000 orcs to save a town of 200 people that should be worth exactly as much as killing 50 orcs to save the same town.
Now killing 50 orcs to save a town of 10,000 civilians, thats worth more... Assuming a town that big was at any risk from a piffling 50 orcs in the first place.


Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything.
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09/19/2007 8:55 AM  

I agree that only gaining XP through combat is not always realistic. Should a rogue gain XP for picking a lock? Yeah, sure. Should a Ranger gain XP for successfully tracking a creature? Yeah, sure. But that isn't how D&D works right? How would you change things? Also, why shouldn't "good" fighter type characters gain XP by killing enemies? That's what they do. What about rogues and clerics? They aren't front line warriors but they make part of their trade by engaging in combat.


Getting back to rangers tracking and rogues picking locks, it makes more sense to me for a character gaining skill experience when they successfully do these things. The rogue who is successful picking locks becomes even more successful picking locks because every time he does it the skill goes up.


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09/19/2007 9:47 AM  
Posted By Ghendar on 09/19/2007 8:55 AM

I agree that only gaining XP through combat is not always realistic. Should a rogue gain XP for picking a lock? Yeah, sure. Should a Ranger gain XP for successfully tracking a creature? Yeah, sure. But that isn't how D&D works right? How would you change things? Also, why shouldn't "good" fighter type characters gain XP by killing enemies? That's what they do. What about rogues and clerics? They aren't front line warriors but they make part of their trade by engaging in combat.


Getting back to rangers tracking and rogues picking locks, it makes more sense to me for a character gaining skill experience when they successfully do these things. The rogue who is successful picking locks becomes even more successful picking locks because every time he does it the skill goes up.


2nd edition handled this somewhat by giving bonus xp based on class for using special abilities (or defeating monsters for fighter-types)...

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09/19/2007 11:07 AM  
I think XP should be thrown out completely. Assign progress to characters based upon sessions of play. It's what I do now. I usually play current level +1 sessions to reach the next level provided the sessions feel like full sessions and we have sort of full group of players. So a roleplaying/mystery solving session equals a hack and slash the goblems session. Actually, my answers is Off topic, because I don't care what they do with xp, I'll still be using my progression system.

I'd love to see them throw out the power attack/reach weapon/great cleave combo... it's is so outta whack.
I'd love to see some better unarmed combat rules, and revamp grappling entirely... it's currently crap.
I am excited to see who they deal with the 5 minute work day, that alone has gotten me to think about switching.
I'd love to say goodbye to classes and go with talent trees etc or point buys but that would screw their plans for 2000 different prestige classes in 200 different upcoming non-core books.
I'd like to see spells go back to being arcane spells and divine spells, not my wizard casts this spell at 2nd level but the cleric can cast it at 3rd. hate that.
Good bye to AoO, I'm cool with that. Slows down combat to much. I am very interested in seeing what they come up with for this.

yeah overall, I'm looking forward to getting the new books, whether I'll switch is probably likely but you never know... maybe just steal some good stuff outta 4.0 and stay with 3.5.



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West Valley City, Utah

09/19/2007 4:07 PM  
Posted By XAos on 09/19/2007 8:34 AM
Posted By Wraithborne on 09/19/2007 7:43 AM
Posted By Ghendar on 09/19/2007 3:48 AM
Posted By XAos on 09/19/2007 3:07 AM
Indeed killing things should be worth zero experience to a "Good" character...

Huh?
An orc horde descends upon the town and the paladin shouldn't get any XP for killing them?

Nah, he should subdue the evil beasts and quote from the Book of Tyr until they see the error of their ways

Correct, a Paladin should get experience points for saving the Town.  Not for killing the Orcs.
Specifically that means if the Paladin kills 10,000 orcs to save a town of 200 people that should be worth exactly as much as killing 50 orcs to save the same town.
Now killing 50 orcs to save a town of 10,000 civilians, thats worth more... Assuming a town that big was at any risk from a piffling 50 orcs in the first place.

Ah, but the difficulty of defending said town from 10,000 is greater.  The challenge is greater; the risk is greater.  It is more heroic to defend it successfully from 10,000 than from 50.  Even if you are saying the XP is due to saving the town, there has to be some consideration of the difficulty involved.


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Quinte West, Ontario, Canada

09/20/2007 12:01 PM  
...and why shouldn't a Paladin get xp for killing evil creatures? They're the militant arm of their churches. Their job is to defend the faithful, destroy the heathens (or non-believers) and spread the word of their god...in roughly that order...if they aren't meant to get xp from killing orcs, don't make them a combat class...give them a +0 base attack with a crap progression and lots of skill points for diplomacy, knowledges, etc...

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09/20/2007 1:58 PM  
Right now, its going to take a lot to get me to buy into 4th edition. The only things that I have liked so far are the changes to the fighter class, and the removal of attacks of opportunity.

What it will take for me to get into to 4th Edition will be for them to stick to changing the mechanics, and avoid changing the fluff. At least not changing it as much as they are. Even if I do play 4th Edition, it will be in a campaign setting more akin to those in 3.5 Edition.

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