| | | | | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
minatoman38
Underboss
1341 Posts
    
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
 | | 09/18/2007 6:08 PM |
| Well there doesn't seem to be a thread about this yet.
So from what we've heard and what we are hoping for does anybody have anything positive to say. Thus far everything is speculative but I am fairly happy about what I am hearing and guessing at.
For me...
1) The possibility that the skill points we be dumped in favor of level based skill advancement. I really enjoyed running the Star Wars Saga games where all skills (Even untrained ones) improved each level. The heroes were a lot more dynamic and making NPCs was a lot easier.
2) The possibility that spells will renew on an encounter basis as a opposed to a daily basis. If this can be done in a balanced way it will really help in the story telling aspect of the game. Characters can move from encounter to encounter with a sense of urgency that is often hard to do when the mage and cleric are out of spells for the day and everyone is down to 10% hit points. Those final dramatic battles against a library clerk and a kobold just haven't been cutting it for me for awhile.
3) Separating Forgotten Realms the gaming setting from forgotten realms the books would be nice if they do that. I've always shied away from FR because it has too many big book heroes and the players will always feel like distant runners up. What little I have read makes the setting sound fine (a fairly conventional RPG setting) but the uber-characters have always kept me away.
4) Knocking back the number of attacks per round would be nice if they do that. I again really like the Star Wars Saga way of eliminating the extra base attacks and instead focusing on making your one attack count for more. I ended my last campaign around 14th level largely because I got sick and tired of the Multi-Weapon Fighter spending 15 minutes rolling dice to come up with a total of about 20 points of damage.
5) A bit more focus on developing races. I like the idea of race choice being more relevant. There has been an attempt to incorporate it into the 3.5 but I'd like to see it standardized. As an example I really liked the idea of the shifters in Eberron but I've found that they have to eat up so many feats to get the flavor of their character that it is hardly worth playing one. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
| |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6567 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/18/2007 8:36 PM |
| I would like more diversity in speed
Like elves have 40' speed, halflings have 25' speed, humans 30', dwarves 20'. All are slowed except dwarves by heavier armors. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/20/2007 10:38 PM |
| I was hoping to see more activity in this thread. But so far my opinion of what I've seen has either been bad (changing the Forgotten Realms) or just different (AOO, core classes going up to level 30, talent tree's etc). Some of the things that are different will probably end up being good or even great - but it's too soon to see.
I'd like for them to release something that makes me really excited about 4th edition. I'd like to be excited about it and have a reason to buy it other than the rest of my group intends on changing. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|
minatoman38
Underboss
1341 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 09/20/2007 11:35 PM |
| I have a feeling this thread was premature. We actually need to see a bit more concret info before we can say whether we like it or not. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
| |
|
Dordledum
Commander
3107 Posts
Netherlands
| | 09/20/2007 11:41 PM |
| Posted By minatoman38 on 09/20/2007 11:35 PM I have a feeling this thread was premature. We actually need to see a bit more concret info before we can say whether we like it or not.
Well, it does say "expected" in the title.
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis! | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5583 Posts
| | 09/21/2007 10:25 AM |
| | I'm expecting the rules to really be simplified in 4e, I know this is vague, but if you've played Saga you'd get a good idea of my expections for game play/character creation. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10104 Posts
United States
| | 09/21/2007 8:04 PM |
| Yep. Presently, the only real comparison is Saga, and Star Wars is different enough from D&D that it's really hard to know what to expect based on Saga.
But, given what we have seen, and given what's in Saga, I'd guess that the skills in D&D will be very much like skills in Saga.
I am worried that the martial characters are headed too much in the neo-fantasy direction (i.e. less Conan and more Yu-Gi-Oh). I don't like the idea of a fighter having unexplained magical powers that somehow have something to do with his sword (or the Freudian references we can draw...). I prefer my knights to be guys in armor, riding horses, and being distrustful of wizards. But, that's me.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6567 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/22/2007 9:35 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 09/21/2007 8:04 PM
Yep. Presently, the only real comparison is Saga, and Star Wars is different enough from D&D that it's really hard to know what to expect based on Saga.
But, given what we have seen, and given what's in Saga, I'd guess that the skills in D&D will be very much like skills in Saga.
I am worried that the martial characters are headed too much in the neo-fantasy direction (i.e. less Conan and more Yu-Gi-Oh). I don't like the idea of a fighter having unexplained magical powers that somehow have something to do with his sword (or the Freudian references we can draw...). I prefer my knights to be guys in armor, riding horses, and being distrustful of wizards. But, that's me.
Dave Exactly. I loath the idea of fighters having some type of fighter magic they apply to their melee attacks. This is so far against my concept of D&D, I actually find it stupid. Is this what the book of nine swords was about?
| |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Wraithborne
Commander
3440 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/22/2007 7:27 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 09/22/2007 9:35 AM Posted By Vrecknidj on 09/21/2007 8:04 PM
Yep. Presently, the only real comparison is Saga, and Star Wars is different enough from D&D that it's really hard to know what to expect based on Saga.
But, given what we have seen, and given what's in Saga, I'd guess that the skills in D&D will be very much like skills in Saga.
I am worried that the martial characters are headed too much in the neo-fantasy direction (i.e. less Conan and more Yu-Gi-Oh). I don't like the idea of a fighter having unexplained magical powers that somehow have something to do with his sword (or the Freudian references we can draw...). I prefer my knights to be guys in armor, riding horses, and being distrustful of wizards. But, that's me.
Dave Exactly. I loath the idea of fighters having some type of fighter magic they apply to their melee attacks. This is so far against my concept of D&D, I actually find it stupid. Is this what the book of nine swords was about?
Oh no, it's not fighter magic....It's the Martial Power Source, and that's nothing like fighter magic  | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 09/23/2007 5:17 AM |
| | Martial Power Source? You made that up, right? It sounds like a dipping sauce. Marshall's Power Sauce. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
|
hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 09/23/2007 5:43 AM |
| The only thing I'm looking forward to about 4E is a lack of splatbooks. When my group changes systems (and I know they will) I'm not going to allow any of the inevitable splatbooks that follow.
If 3E has taught me anything it's that nothing ruins a game of D&D faster than more rules.
I'm looking forward to starting with a new system. I'm looking forward to actually understanding all the rules of the game I'm trying to run. I'm gonna buy the core 3 books this time, and some Paizo adventures and that's it. Wizards can take their sytem wrecking splatbooks and their ill conceived DI and shove it. They ain't tricking me twice.
OK. Maybe that's a little harsh. But once you've allowed the splatbooks in a game, it's next to impossible to take them out without pissing off your players. I'm looking forward to not making the same mistake with the next edition.
Provided 4E doesn't uck of course. I still haven't seen the sytem so I can't say for sure. | |
Champion of Phanatons. | |
|
minatoman38
Underboss
1341 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 09/23/2007 6:17 AM |
| Wow. Hazel Monday summed it up perfectly. More than anything with the new edition I am looking forward to retracting my nearly anything goes so long as its made by wizards and jump on the if it ain't in the core books it aint band wagon. Endless variety works for a few levels but the corruption really becomes apparent later on. Death to monthly suppliments...more adventures please. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
| |
|
berus316
Sergeant
621 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 09/23/2007 7:11 AM |
| I think I'm on both Hazel Monday and minatoman's pages. There was plenty of flexibility on 3.5 core and letting in the other stuff just got to big and detailed, you let in the first Complete book, and then you had to let in the next complete book and so on... before you know it you've got 850 feats, 100 prestige classes and never an idea of where something was to be found without looking through everything. ugh. A couple of game unbalancing feats and suddenly you're forced to make a choice between fixing a unber-character back down and pissing the player off or letting it ride and just ramping up the game at the expense of the non-uber characters in the party.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304
H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
|
Wraithborne
Commander
3440 Posts
West Virginia
| | 09/23/2007 8:51 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 09/23/2007 5:17 AM
Martial Power Source? You made that up, right? It sounds like a dipping sauce. Marshall's Power Sauce.
I wish I had, but I'm not sure I could come up with something that hokey.
Here's the quote from enworld:
Every class will have a "power source". Every class will have actions based on powers... "You can customise your fighter in many different ways."- Power sources mentined on the cover of the PHB: Arcane, Divine, Martial.
So, yeah, fighter magic. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6567 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/23/2007 9:23 PM |
| There is a lot of grumbling in my group when I only allow the following sources:
PHB
PHB 2
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
I keep getting asked about stuff in other books. I am getting tired of explaining myself when I say no. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/23/2007 10:38 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/23/2007 8:51 AM
Every class will have a "power source". Every class will have actions based on powers... "You can customise your fighter in many different ways."
Customization is good. I think it's cool when there are two characters of the same class in a party but they have completely different skill sets, abilities and feats.
That said - this martial power source thing sounds silly. I'll maintain my "wait and see" approach while hoping that they release some information that will get me excited about the new version. The stuff that they've released seems to be targeted towards teenagers that have grown tired of Pokemon.Â
| |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5583 Posts
| | 09/24/2007 6:47 AM |
| | I ran a campaign where only humans were allowed. My players are understanding (mostly). We've only allowed psionics on occassion, and usually stick to core race/classes, but expand for spells and items. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
|
berus316
Sergeant
621 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 09/24/2007 8:01 AM |
| I think I can guess how they are going to work the Martial Power Source...
each level of each class adds a certain value to the Martial Power Source and based on the combined total you will be given a set of bonus to hit and have certain feats available at those levels. I guess the same would be done for divine and arcane power sources.
I think I'd like it if it worked that way... but who knows.
I remain cautiously optimistic... | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304
H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6558 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 09/24/2007 3:16 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/24/2007 6:47 AM
I ran a campaign where only humans were allowed. My players are understanding (mostly). We've only allowed psionics on occassion, and usually stick to core race/classes, but expand for spells and items.
I had a campaign like that. It's fine, if the story's good. And for a little while, it was. But when your story starts getting lame, people are less likely to accept restrictions. If you won't excite them with the restrictions in place, they are going to want to do it themselves, and races an classesare a way for players to entertain themselves, so to speak. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5583 Posts
| | 09/24/2007 3:23 PM |
| | Seemed to work. Went from 2nd edition to the 3.5 and the conversion really messed things up. I won't be able to take it to 4e, due to fluff changes (I'm certain), but there is some still left in that campaign to do, which will get revisited eventually. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
|
Bert the Troll
Commander
3771 Posts
Adelaide
| | 09/24/2007 4:55 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/24/2007 3:16 PM Posted By greyhaze on 09/24/2007 6:47 AM
I ran a campaign where only humans were allowed. My players are understanding (mostly). We've only allowed psionics on occassion, and usually stick to core race/classes, but expand for spells and items. I had a campaign like that. It's fine, if the story's good. And for a little while, it was. But when your story starts getting lame, people are less likely to accept restrictions. If you won't excite them with the restrictions in place, they are going to want to do it themselves, and races an classesare a way for players to entertain themselves, so to speak.
Good DM's and Invloved players can make anyhing work. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 4:33 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/21/2007 10:25 AM
I'm expecting the rules to really be simplified in 4e, I know this is vague, but if you've played Saga you'd get a good idea of my expections for game play/character creation.
I've played Saga as well and I agree.
| |
No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 4:45 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/22/2007 7:27 PM Oh no, it's not fighter magic....It's the Martial Power Source, and that's nothing like fighter magic 
A rose by any other name?
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 5:04 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 09/24/2007 3:16 PM
I had a campaign like that. It's fine, if the story's good. And for a little while, it was. But when your story starts getting lame, people are less likely to accept restrictions. If you won't excite them with the restrictions in place, they are going to want to do it themselves, and races an classesare a way for players to entertain themselves, so to speak.
You know, I find it funny. I read on ENworld not long ago a post about Ryan Dancey's "secret mission" to TSR back in (I think) 1997. I'd like to be able to find that link but ENworld is blocked from me at work. Basically, he was sent there to investigate the company prior to WotC buying it. One of the things that struck me was that fan feedback at the time (referenced in the article) was that players found 2E too restrictive and that they wanted to be able to do more things with their characters. WotC's response was to the effect of, okay, we can fix that.Â
Now as we all know, when 3E was released it allowed players to indeed do more things with their characters. 3.5 expanded on that and 4E will expand even further on that.
However....
At the same time, WotC and the fan base promotes the idea that if you don't like something, you can ignore it. Well, you can't have it both ways can you? Corim, for instance, only allows certain things and that does not sit well with his players. I can understand both sides of the argument. As a DM, you want a certain level of control and as a player you want to be able to use whatever splatbooks you own. I get it. However, as I said the two concepts are in conflict. 3E's premise is to be able to do more stuff, while at the same time everything is optional. I think it's a fine idea in theory but not always in practice.
So what is the answer? I don't know.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/26/2007 8:50 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/26/2007 5:04 AM
At the same time, WotC and the fan base promotes the idea that if you don't like something, you can ignore it. Well, you can't have it both ways can you? Corim, for instance, only allows certain things and that does not sit well with his players. I can understand both sides of the argument. As a DM, you want a certain level of control and as a player you want to be able to use whatever splatbooks you own. I get it. However, as I said the two concepts are in conflict. 3E's premise is to be able to do more stuff, while at the same time everything is optional. I think it's a fine idea in theory but not always in practice.
So what is the answer? I don't know.
I just recently switched gaming groups.
The first group loves anything weird and different - they take level adjustments and templates and bizarre things. After I stopped DMing because of work commitments the new DM decided to run a pirate game in the Forgotten Realms. I decided to play an Elf Swashbuckler. Along with my character there was a ghost cleric, a lich, a Feyri-Half dragon something and a four armed sahuagin monk. Having just finished DMing for them I was somewhat used to their unusual character concepts but this was a departure even for them. I changed my character to something that was about 12 kinds of broken just to show them how to make a character with level adjustments and templates and be effective. I'm not going to say what I played because I'm kind of embarrassed by it - I'm not usually that much of a munchkin. I dropped out of that game for reasons unrelated to their crazy characters.
I was invited to another game that I've been playing with since then. They like using only the core books and don't approve of prestige classes - much less weird races and templates. I'm currently playing the Elf Swashbuckler that I had originally wanted to play with the last group.
My point is to find a group with similar interests and preferences as far as which optional rules to use and not use. I had fun in both of the above groups and can adapt my characters and playing style to fit either one. Most of the other players in both groups could not switch groups and still have fun because the styles are so different from what they're used to. Find a group with similar preferences. If you have all the splatbooks and want to use them then find a group that will let you. If you don't want your players to use all the optional rules then find players who don't want to use them.
| |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 9:05 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/26/2007 8:50 AM
My point is to find a group with similar interests and preferences as far as which optional rules to use and not use. I had fun in both of the above groups and can adapt my characters and playing style to fit either one. Most of the other players in both groups could not switch groups and still have fun because the styles are so different from what they're used to. Find a group with similar preferences. If you have all the splatbooks and want to use them then find a group that will let you. If you don't want your players to use all the optional rules then find players who don't want to use them.
That is certainly an option and one that you have had success with. However, it's not really an option for me and others. For some, it's geographically daunting to impossible to find another group. Others (myself as an example) like the group that they play with and don't want to find another group. I honestly think that 3.5 gives players too many options and it's a problem when players feel entitled to play something just because WotC released it in a splatbook.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6567 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/26/2007 10:22 AM |
| With my group, it's just two of the six players that want to have more splat book freedom.
I think part of the solution for me would be for them to do good playtesting and add more races and classes to the Core PHB for 4e. I really don't like the comment that was made about the spellsword--we decided to put it in a future supplement. They made a class that they like and are intentionally delaying it for a future supplement. I would much prefer doubling the number of races and classes in the PHB over having a few in this splat book and a few in that splat book. Assuming that they are carefully balanced. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/26/2007 11:04 AM |
| The large number of splat books and supplemental material released is either a good thing for players or a bad thing for players depending on who you ask. I think that adding options and additional material is a good thing if it's done in moderation - say three-four complete books a year instead of one each month. But that's just me and asking someone else will get you a different opinion.
While the virtue of releasing so many books is debatable I don't think that the necessity of it is. WOTC is a company and their primary goal is to make money. They have bills to pay and profit goals to achieve. If they don't make those goals then they will cease to exist. They make money by producing and selling books and supplemental material for those books. The more books they sell the more money they make and the long term viability of the company is assured. The less books they release the less money they make and their continued success is not quite as certain.
Is releasing a new edition and a large amount of support material every five years or so a good thing? Maybe. Is it the smart thing for them to do as a company? Absolutely.
| |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 11:33 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/26/2007 11:04 AM
Is releasing a new edition and a large amount of support material every five years or so a good thing? Maybe. Is it the smart thing for them to do as a company? Absolutely.
Only if the fan base sees each new edition as an improvement over the last one and only if they can bring new blood into the hobby. Releasing new editions too soon can result in a negative backlash. A player who has been around since 1E has a much different view of new editions than someone who came on board with 3.5. If WotC can insure new blood, they will be very successful. Eventually, the older blood will stop buying the newer editions. WotC made some money off me with 3E. If they want to recoup that money for 4E, they will have to look somewhere else because they won't get it from me.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6567 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/26/2007 2:16 PM |
| It makes me wonder what the designers actually considered "fundamental D&D" that should not be changed when they set out to make 4e so different. I don't see a lot of what has been left alone.
I think you still roll dice (primarily d20) and there are races (even the title of race is being debated though) and there are classes and you fight monsters and there are spells and magic items of some kind. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 09/26/2007 2:21 PM |
| I like that options are provided to us, although i'm on the low-end of using them. I've played in two campaigns plus a couple of one-shots, and all were core-books only (with very few extra prestige classes). We like it that way.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/27/2007 1:59 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/26/2007 11:33 AM Posted By Star on 09/26/2007 11:04 AM
Is releasing a new edition and a large amount of support material every five years or so a good thing? Maybe. Is it the smart thing for them to do as a company? Absolutely.
Only if the fan base sees each new edition as an improvement over the last one and only if they can bring new blood into the hobby. Releasing new editions too soon can result in a negative backlash. A player who has been around since 1E has a much different view of new editions than someone who came on board with 3.5. If WotC can insure new blood, they will be very successful. Eventually, the older blood will stop buying the newer editions. WotC made some money off me with 3E. If they want to recoup that money for 4E, they will have to look somewhere else because they won't get it from me.
Obviously not everyone that is a current WOTC customer is going to remain one with the new edition. Unless they're stupid, they've taken that into account.
I believe that they hope that a majority of the current players will buy the new edition - if not now then eventually because the old edition will no longer be supported. To replace (what they hope to be) the minority of current customers who don't make the switch they plan to recruit new customers by targeting different demographics - kids who like WOW for example. I would be surprised if they don't do a lot of advertising in video game magazines and comic books.
Yes - there will be a negative backlash from some customers. They know it - and they're ok with it. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|
PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 09/27/2007 2:29 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 09/26/2007 2:16 PM
It makes me wonder what the designers actually considered "fundamental D&D" that should not be changed when they set out to make 4e so different. I don't see a lot of what has been left alone.
I think you still roll dice (primarily d20) and there are races (even the title of race is being debated though) and there are classes and you fight monsters and there are spells and magic items of some kind. Agreed.
I'll add they certainly won't touch many of the iconic monsters. We'll see kobolds, goblins, orc, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, trolls, giants, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, vampires, liches, elementals, dragons of many colors, mind flayers, beholders, etc.
| |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
|
Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/27/2007 6:39 PM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:29 AM
I'll add they certainly won't touch many of the iconic monsters. We'll see kobolds, goblins, orc, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, trolls, giants, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, vampires, liches, elementals, dragons of many colors, mind flayers, beholders, etc.
They might dramatically change how those monsters look though.
The cynical side of me suspects that the aesthetic changes will be to make previous mini's obsolete in an attempt to get us to continue buying mini's. "You know those 347 kobold mini's you have? They're worthless! Kobolds are now large and.... ethereal! Kobolds are large and ethereal and all your old kobold mini's are worthless! Throw them out and buy new mini's!" | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/28/2007 3:45 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/27/2007 6:39 PM Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:29 AM
I'll add they certainly won't touch many of the iconic monsters. We'll see kobolds, goblins, orc, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, trolls, giants, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, vampires, liches, elementals, dragons of many colors, mind flayers, beholders, etc.
They might dramatically change how those monsters look though.
The cynical side of me suspects that the aesthetic changes will be to make previous mini's obsolete in an attempt to get us to continue buying mini's. "You know those 347 kobold mini's you have? They're worthless! Kobolds are now large and.... ethereal! Kobolds are large and ethereal and all your old kobold mini's are worthless! Throw them out and buy new mini's!"
And if they take this approach, I'll completely ignore such nonsense and Kobolds in my campaigns will remain as they are now.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/28/2007 9:16 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/27/2007 1:59 AM
Yes - there will be a negative backlash from some customers. They know it - and they're ok with it.
Up to a point they are okay with it. If WotC knows they will piss off 50 customers by changing something but they know that 100 will like the change, they will go ahead and make it. However, when 50 like it and 100 don't like it, they risk shooting themselves in the foot.
I know for a fact that they are betting enough folks like the DI and it will make us former print magazine subscribers irrelevant. I know that's just good business on their part (or at least they think it's good business) but it's hard for me not to take it personally when they cancel my print mags, or fundamentally change D&D. However, all of that is meaningless to them because I (and others like me) are no longer in their target market. That's why Paizo gets my money and their DI gets the great big Digitus Impudicus from me.
| |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 09/28/2007 9:51 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/28/2007 9:16 AM Posted By Star on 09/27/2007 1:59 AM
Yes - there will be a negative backlash from some customers. They know it - and they're ok with it. Up to a point they are okay with it. If WotC knows they will piss off 50 customers by changing something but they know that 100 will like the change, they will go ahead and make it. However, when 50 like it and 100 don't like it, they risk shooting themselves in the foot. I know for a fact that they are betting enough folks like the DI and it will make us former print magazine subscribers irrelevant. I know that's just good business on their part (or at least they think it's good business) but it's hard for me not to take it personally when they cancel my print mags, or fundamentally change D&D. However, all of that is meaningless to them because I (and others like me) are no longer in their target market. That's why Paizo gets my money and their DI gets the great big Digitus Impudicus from me.
I know exactly what you mean Ghendar. For me, The only really unforgivable thing Hasbro has done was to cancel the print magazines.
I really enjoyed those magazines,especially with Paizo at the helm. Dungeon was so good, that it actually made me use prepublished adventures for the first time in 15 years of DMing. Dungeon and Dragon magazine were undebatably the best value in gamerdom. For hasbro to cancel them so abruptly was nothing less than spitting in the face of their customers. It's been months since the announcement and I still can't forgive Hasbro.
Maybe it was a great move for them financially. But, as far as I'm concerned, they just showed they don't want my business. I used to buy nearly a case a set. Last set I bought 2 boosters. This coming set, it looks like i'm not buying any. I'll nver buy anither splatbook from them either, and I used to buy one evry couple of months. WOTC used to be able to rely on me for about 600 bucks year. Now that money's going to Paizo. They probably won't miss that money. But I can't see myself throwing that much loot at a company that treats me so poorly. Also, not only will I never put a dime towards the DI, but I'll prohibit my players from using anything from the DI in any game I run.
Now that I think about, the above post sounds knda pissy. But What the hell, I love playing D&D. But I hate throwing my money at a company that hoplds the game and it's players in such low regard. | |
Champion of Phanatons. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/28/2007 10:28 AM |
| Posted By hazel monday on 09/28/2007 9:51 AM
Maybe it was a great move for them financially. But, as far as I'm concerned, they just showed they don't want my business. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, that's exactly how I feel. | |
No Hazel, no peace
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 09/29/2007 4:37 AM |
| Posted By Star on 09/27/2007 6:39 PM Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:29 AM
I'll add they certainly won't touch many of the iconic monsters. We'll see kobolds, goblins, orc, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, ogres, trolls, giants, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, ghosts, vampires, liches, elementals, dragons of many colors, mind flayers, beholders, etc.
They might dramatically change how those monsters look though.
The cynical side of me suspects that the aesthetic changes will be to make previous mini's obsolete in an attempt to get us to continue buying mini's. "You know those 347 kobold mini's you have? They're worthless! Kobolds are now large and.... ethereal! Kobolds are large and ethereal and all your old kobold mini's are worthless! Throw them out and buy new mini's!"
But since I'll have around 3000 minis after DoD, there's no way I'll renew my collection if scale changes. It then would be singles of the minis I'd be missing, or the few that would look great. End of collecting days... I hope not, but...
| |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6558 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 09/29/2007 12:56 PM |
| I do have this to say. Â I find myself more and more satisfied with my SWRPG campaign, and thinking I may be a wait and see adapter. I'll still get all the core books, but my zeal is lessened... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
|