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Darkfather Commander
 3457 Posts



 Queensland, Australia
 | | 09/21/2007 6:06 AM |
| http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20070918
and for those net-challenged...
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Online or Tabletop?I keep hearing that there’s still confusion in the community about the nature of the 4th Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game. The question at the top of this column is the wrong question. It isn’t an “either/or” question. The earth is still round, the sun is still the center of the solar system, wizards still cast fireballs, and D&D 4th Edition is still a tabletop roleplaying game. Really. We love the analog world. We love physical products and interacting in person with our gaming groups. We love books and miniatures and dice and dungeon tiles and maps and frosty beverages and snacks and … well, everything related to sitting around a table and playing D&D with our friends. It’s not only what we do professionally, it’s our hobby and our passion. These things are not going away. I’ve got the D&D R&D schedule right here in front of me, and it shows that we’re working on at least one hardcover D&D game product every month for the length of this very long spreadsheet (we’re talking years here). It shows three sets of D&D Miniatures booster packs every year. It shows adventures, supplements, accessories, and Dungeon Tiles coming out on a regular and frequent basis—all of which will be on sale at your brick-and-mortar, real-world game, hobby, comic, and book stores (as well as other places) each and every month. Why the confusion, then? Probably because there’s so much information flying around that it’s often hard to see the goblin in the cave full of bugbears. With D&D Insider, we're offering an optional online component to 4th Edition D&D. It consists of magazine content, player aids, Dungeon Master tools, and a D&D Game Table that allows you to play the pen-and-paper D&D game over the Internet. These features are in addition to our regular selection of analog products. They don’t replace them. I’m going to say that again: D&D Insider does not replace our analog products. Insider is an additional component meant to enhance your D&D experience. D&D 4th Edition is online and tabletop. Can you play D&D over the Internet using the tools available with D&D Insider? Absolutely. Can you play D&D in person, around a table, with your real-world friends? Absolutely. We’re not eliminating options here; we’re adding more ways to interact with the hobby we love. It’s your choice. We fully expect that, for many people, the way to play D&D will continue to be your regularly scheduled face-to-face game, supplemented with additional games on the D&D Game Table. For others, it will be all analog, all the time. Some groups will even go the all-Internet route due to preference, or because they don’t have access to an analog game group. More options, more choices, more D&D play. ConversionThe other issue that seems to have caused a stir revolves around the conversion of characters from 3rd Edition rules to 4th Edition rules. There are a few key concepts that need to be made crystal clear so that everyone understands them. First, 4th Edition D&D is still powered by the d20 System. At its core, if you know how to play 3rd Edition D&D you’re going to know how to play 4th Edition. Second, this is a new game. It uses all of the trappings of the current d20 System, but it approaches all of the rules from a new and exciting perspective. That means that while you’ll know how to make attack rolls, skill checks, and damage rolls (the broad concepts), you won’t necessarily know all of the nuances of the fighter class or the arcane power source, or the death and dying rules (the details). Third, we can’t physically replicate eight years of products and options right out of the gate. It just can’t happen. With these things in mind, straight-up character conversion won’t be possible. As James Wyatt so eloquently expressed it, however, you’ll have no problem expressing the concept and story of your 3rd Edition character within the framework of 4th Edition. As we’ve seen during playtesting, in many ways the new rules allow you to better match the rules to the character concept you had in mind than the 3E rules ever did. In essence, using the 4th Edition rules, you’ll be able to rebuild your character around the same concept and backstory as before, but there won’t be a magic formula that says, “change this number to that number” or “this power to that power.” Next time, maybe I’ll get to telling you about a typical day for me here at the office ... or we’ll talk about something more pertinent and interesting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DF
| | [INSERT WITTY QUOTE HERE] 233 Confirmed Trades, 230 Completed Trades, 3 Failed TradesChampion of Dark Mantles | |
| Shottglazz Sergeant
 970 Posts



 Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 09/21/2007 6:12 AM |
| | Thanks DF - much appreciated (especially since I'm websensed at work) | | Shottglazz "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand; I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 48 ): Pikel, Darrell, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x3, Wraithborne x5, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x4, Generic Fighter, Auric, Relientkitten Pending trades ( 0 ): WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| Dordledum Commander
 3191 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 09/21/2007 6:48 AM |
| I like the combination of the following two sentences especially:
"I’ve got the D&D R&D schedule right here in front of me, and it shows that we’re working on at least one hardcover D&D game product every month for the length of this very long spreadsheet (we’re talking years here). It shows three sets of D&D Miniatures booster packs every year."
3 sets of DDM and we're talking years here (plural!). DDM will be around for a while!
D. | | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis! | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6621 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/21/2007 9:38 AM |
| See also new playtest report from DM:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drpr/20070921a
Thursday Night, Wizards Conference Room (Wayne Manor). Campaign Arc: Castle Smoulderthorn DM: Dave Noonan Players: Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, Logan Bonner, and Toby Latin
By now, you’ve probably read playtest reports from Bruce Cordell, Logan Bonner, and Rich Baker. They’re all players in my Thursday night Eberron game. And they’re really good at capturing feedback—good, bad, and ugly—so I won’t duplicate what they’re trying to do. But I have a perspective they lack. Because I’m the DM, I’m also “playtesting” how the game functions away from the table. It’s crucial to get the game itself to work, of course. But it’s also important to get NPC creation, encounter design, and adventure-building right.
That’s the subject of this playtest report: How the game is functioning when the dice aren’t rolling. Session One: Welcome to 4th Edition
My Thursday night group is about half Wizards game designers (including the aforementioned Rich, Logan, and Bruce), and half guys and gals in their thirties who work in various high-tech jobs here in the Seattle area. It’s a big table—seven regulars, and we get five or six of ‘em for every single session.
For years, they’ve been a personal testbed for whatever my day-job design task was. They played the Player’s Handbook II classes before anyone else, battled their way through Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and faced off against the denizens of Monster Manual V. So back in June, they were among the first groups to try out the new rules.
At the time, the new rules weren’t complete, and they sure weren’t pretty. I dropped a lot of three-ring binders in the middle of the table on that first night, gave a little lecture (complete with whiteboard diagrams) about some of the overarching rules changes, and said, “Create a new version of your character that’s as faithful to your existing character as you can manage.”
It took about 90 minutes, because this iteration of the rules is fiendishly complex. (We’re paring it down as I write this, actually.) There were a couple of pieces I knew I’d be missing. The gnome and warforged races hadn’t been written yet, but Logan and fellow designer Chris Sims came to my rescue with serviceable versions. Bruce’s character, Infandous, used both a race (élan) and a class (psion) that we hadn’t written yet. In his case, we punted. We’re using the mechanics for a human wizard, but Infandous is still acting like an élan and describing his abilities in psionic terms. For now, that’ll do.
I suppose the good news is that we pulled it off. We got rolling again that night, using the new rules. We only played two encounters, but my players were drinking from the proverbial fire hose, so that was probably for the best.
And the first session cheered me in another way. I felt like I probably saw a process that’ll be replicated in basements everywhere come next year. It’s probably inevitable that early on, other gaming groups are going to have to “reinterpret” their characters rather than slavishly “convert” them. There’s just no way that on release day, we’ll have the same amount of character options that it took us eight years to write in Third Edition.
But if we could do it with fragmentary rules in three-ring binders, you can do it with the nicely polished rules we’re going to deliver next year. Session Two: Lots of Prep Time
My players had to get used to the idea of reinterpretation rather than strict conversion. Like Bruce’s “I’m a psion, not a wizard” character, they had to use one rules element but pretend it was another. That was a technique I needed to employ, too.
When we started out playtesting, we had 139 pages of monsters. That sounds like a lot, but spread out over the entire level spectrum, it really isn’t. And when you apply the “monsters you’d realistically find in Castle Smoulderthorn, a Blood of Vol fortress floating over Karrnath” filter, the number of available monsters shrinks even further.
A small monster supply was my first dilemma. But I wasn’t sure just how small the monster supply was, because (forgive me if this seems obvious) no one had playtested yet. I didn’t know how far up or down the level scale I could travel and still build fun encounters for my 7th-level PCs. Could I run 9th-level monsters? 11th? 13th? Where does it become just too hard? We have answers we think are right based on the fundamental numbers of the game, but no actual at-the-table yet.
But I had enough monsters to work with for that first session:
* Azer minions and a magma brute for the fire level? Check. That’s a pretty easy swap for the azers and fire elementals I had planned there.
* Bonecrusher zombies and a zombie hulk go into the reliquary. That’s a bit different than the Blood of Vol clerics I’d slotted in there, but I wanted to put the new monsters through their paces. (And a robust NPC creation system is something we don’t have… yet.) I had to knock back some of the walls to give the zombie hulk room to maneuver, but that’s an easy architectural change. But I didn’t stop there, coming up with some shaky ceilings that just might collapse if the zombie hulk rampages too close to the pillars.
* The ossuary has wraiths and rot scarab swarms. That’s an upgrade from my 3.5 design, which had just wraiths in there. I added some alcoves for the rot scarab swarms to scurry out from, and built a little positional/timing tactical puzzle. PCs that kept their wits about them could avoid inciting the rot scarabs for a few rounds, but PCs that rushed in pell-mell would have to face all the monsters at once.
* I saved the entrance platform for last. There I originally had a bunch of Emerald Claw elite soldiers backed up by some Blood of Vol warlocks. I spent a lot of my prep time rebuilding those soldiers and warlocks, because I knew that work would pay dividends for future sessions. Those soldiers and warlocks are spinkled all across Castle Smoulderthorn. I built them as monsters—after all, my players would never know the difference, right? And at this point in the game’s design, monster creation is much more a function of benchmarking than a function of deriving statistics by formula (which is pretty much the 3.5 design technique). I begin with the end in mind in terms of AC, hit points, and all the other salient statistics. I add cool attacks, plugging in relevant numbers there, too. And voila! I’ve got my soldiers and warlocks.
The most exciting part of my four-room redesign was that in each case, I was adding more monster variety to the mix and some more complex environmental nuances. With 4th Edition, I can get away with that now because the inherent “processor load” on the DM is much, much lower than it is in 3.5. Because I have only a fraction of the bookkeeping/information management duties, I can add that complexity back in fun ways. For this session, I’m going to run lots of heterogeneous monster encounters. I’m keeping everything right at level 7; nothing but strictly level-appropriate encounters. Session Three: Holy Hannah, I’ve Got a Game Tonight
Let’s fast-forward a week. Suffice it to say that my four rooms worked like a charm. During the second session, I found myself with extra time on my hands—I think I was actually burdened less by minutiae than my players were. (And like I said, we’re working on the player complexity issue.)
But my day job kept me busy. So busy, in fact, that I found myself at 5 p.m. on Thursday asking myself, “How can I come up with a whole session of material in less than an hour?”
My answer: Be like Bruce.
In the previous session, I’d used up a lot of the monsters that would be “appropriate” for Castle Smoulderthorn. But that left all the inappropriate ones, which I could probably put to work if I just put them into some Eberron- and Smoulderthorn-appropriate clothing.
* The hellsword cambions from the monster three-ring binder? Now they’re my “fire minotaurs.”
* I filed the serial numbers off the githzerai monks and githzerai zerth and turned them into Vol’s “Sentinels of the Ancestral Bloodline.”
* The yuan-ti assassins became Blood of Vol assassins, and I merely moved the poison from their fangs to their weapons, and pretended like they had legs all along.
And at the table, I totally got away with it. This isn’t a technique I recommend as a matter of course, but when you’re dealing with both time constraints and monster-supply constraints, it worked like a charm. I had the whole session buttoned up and ready to go with time to spare.
About the Author
David Noonan is a designer/developer for Wizards of the Coast. His credits include co-designing Dungeon Master's Guide II, Heroes of Battle, and numerous products for the Eberron campaign setting. He lives in Washington state with his wife, son, and daughter.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Shottglazz Sergeant
 970 Posts



 Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 09/21/2007 11:09 AM |
| So anyone else notice we basically got a good clue at some minis in the next few sets?
* Azer minions and a magma brute * Bonecrusher zombies and a zombie hulk * The ossuary has wraiths and rot scarab swarms * The hellsword cambions * I filed the serial numbers off the githzerai monks and githzerai zerth * The yuan-ti assassins
| | Shottglazz "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand; I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 48 ): Pikel, Darrell, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x3, Wraithborne x5, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x4, Generic Fighter, Auric, Relientkitten Pending trades ( 0 ): WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5841 Posts




 | |  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10301 Posts


 United States
 | | 09/21/2007 7:52 PM |
| Lots of juicy stuff here. No surprise about the years of minis thing, I expect that WotC makes a hefty profit from our addiction to plastic toys. And, with a new edition of the game, they get to reprint all the traditional monsters, duplicating sales of loads of pieces. (About which, by the way, I have no gripe. I want more Large Red Dragons, to be honest.)
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| nyjastul69 Commander
 2710 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 09/22/2007 5:30 AM |
| How can he possibly claim that D&D Insider isn't replacing things?
"I’m going to say that again: D&D Insider does not replace our analog products. Insider is an additional component meant to enhance your D&D experience. D&D 4th Edition is online and tabletop."
Maybe he has repeated this enough times to himself that he actually believes it. D&D Insider is in fact replacing print versions of two very popular magazines. | | You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6621 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/22/2007 9:33 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 09/22/2007 5:30 AM How can he possibly claim that D&D Insider isn't replacing things?
I don't know since they have moved all of the preview threads over there. That tells me that when D&D Insider begins to have a fee, I will lose access to internet previews. That would stink.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| nyjastul69 Commander
 2710 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 09/22/2007 9:42 AM |
| | I think the previews and errata type stuff will remain free when DDI implements the subscription fee. | | You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 3546 Posts



 West Virginia
 | | 09/22/2007 7:51 PM |
| The whole thing kind of comes off with an "I don't really want to write this article for a bunch of idiots, but I guess I will" tone to it. If I wanted to be talked down to, I'd go back to Wal-Mart Management.
The spreadsheet encompassing "Years" to me means 2 and literally does nothing to dispel the notion that a new edition, be it 4.5 or 5e, whatever they want to call it, is already being worked on and will be all digital. I don't think it will go all digital that soon, but when it does come and someone brings up this statement, we'll be told that, well, it was more than 1 year and thus a truthful statement. | | The year: 1994. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Earth and the Moon, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin! Two thousand years later, Earth is reborn... A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Ookla the Mok and Princess Ariel, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Sunsword against the forces of evil. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!
| |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 09/23/2007 9:09 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/22/2007 7:51 PM
The spreadsheet encompassing "Years" to me means 2 and literally does nothing to dispel the notion that a new edition, be it 4.5 or 5e, whatever they want to call it, is already being worked on and will be all digital. I don't think it will go all digital that soon, but when it does come and someone brings up this statement, we'll be told that, well, it was more than 1 year and thus a truthful statement. I think you're being pessimistic as far as an all digital version of D+D is concerned.
I doubt that an all digital version would even be discussed. It seems as though they're utilizing it as an option with 4th edition and beyond but I doubt that they would ever totally replace the books and mini's other accessories that they currently sell. From a business standpoint it would make no sense - they would be alienating far too many customers and not gaining nearly enough to make up the difference.
| | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3858 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/23/2007 9:19 PM |
| I'm sure it has been discussed but doubt it will happen.
Though I fully expect most of what we call print to be replaced by something similar to PDF in a decade, that is different to me than going fully digital. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 09/23/2007 10:28 PM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/23/2007 9:19 PM
I'm sure it has been discussed but doubt it will happen.
Maybe it was discussed by accountants that are looking at how much they could save on printing and shipping. As soon as it got to someone that actually plays D+D and knows gamers the accountant would have been told that cutting costs is only good if you can maintain or grow your sales - and taking books, dice and mini's away from gamers would kill their sales.
I'm not saying that having the option of playing online wouldn't be good for the players who don't have access to a gaming group for geographical or other reasons. I would have loved it when I was in the Army stationed in the middle east, but it's a only a cool option for those who can't find a group. It won't replace the real thing and any attempt to try will completely fail.
| | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| Jefftyjeffjeff Warrior
 214 Posts




 | | 09/24/2007 8:14 AM |
| Given my experience in publishing and editorial calendars, "years" probably does mean multiple years, probably between 3-5.
But what everyone on the inside understands is that beyond maybe 12 months, it's speculative. The rest is very much written in pencil.
What the editorial reveals is that they've loosely got DDM and hardback books planned for the foreseeable future. But it's subject to change if there's a compelling reason to change it. | | Jeff Quick, Philadelphia 22 Successful Trades: benimoto, bonepinhamer, bradu, Changeling, dnd3eplayer, drowdude, Drift, Gausse, Ghendar, Ihawk, ikill4adollar, Khaibit_ema_Neteru, Lance H, marjorie, MeepoTheMighty, mulkhoran, Puggins, Ryngard, vrecknidj, wuzzard, xbrendanx, Zenako (x2) Pending Trades: | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 09/24/2007 3:13 PM |
| Posted By Jefftyjeffjeff on 09/24/2007 8:14 AM Given my experience in publishing and editorial calendars, "years" probably does mean multiple years, probably between 3-5.
But what everyone on the inside understands is that beyond maybe 12 months, it's speculative. The rest is very much written in pencil.
What the editorial reveals is that they've loosely got DDM and hardback books planned for the foreseeable future. But it's subject to change if there's a compelling reason to change it.
Pretty much. Nothing that isn't in stores is set in stone... | | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| warty_nosed_goblin Underboss
 1384 Posts




 | | 09/25/2007 7:41 PM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 09/22/2007 5:30 AM How can he possibly claim that D&D Insider isn't replacing things?
"I’m going to say that again: D&D Insider does not replace our analog products. Insider is an additional component meant to enhance your D&D experience. D&D 4th Edition is online and tabletop."
Maybe he has repeated this enough times to himself that he actually believes it. D&D Insider is in fact replacing print versions of two very popular magazines.
I think what he meant by that is that you in no way need D&DI to actually play the game- it doesn't replace any elements of the game itself. It might (and in the case of Dragon and Dungeon clearly does) replace some of the supplemenatary but not strictly neccessary elements of D&D- but leaves the game itself alone.
Personally, even if they only have things planned out two years in advance, that's still pretty good- how many people really know what they'll be doing in two years? I know I don't- I don't even know where I'll be living in two years. I understand that Wizards is a corporation and expected to plan farther ahead, but really, that's still good news for me. | | Call me: W.N. Gobo! originally posted by grim: While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 11227 Posts



 The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 09/26/2007 11:00 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 09/22/2007 7:51 PM
The spreadsheet encompassing "Years" to me means 2 and literally does nothing to dispel the notion that a new edition, be it 4.5 or 5e, whatever they want to call it, is already being worked on and will be all digital. I don't think it will go all digital that soon, but when it does come and someone brings up this statement, we'll be told that, well, it was more than 1 year and thus a truthful statement. I'm convinced that 5E will be discussed soon after release of 4E. Will it be digital? No, I don't think so, although I truly believe that the future of D&D (at least as long as WotC is at the helm) will be digital. Not sure when but it will eventually happen and the change will be so gradual as to not even warrant a whimper from the fan base.
However, having said all that, I'm tired of it. I'm tired of trying to fight that good fight and wave that noble banner. My finger is getting mighty wrinkly in the dyke here. More and more, I am dismayed by what the future of this game holds. Since the cancelation announcement of Dungeon & Dragon, WotC has been systematically pissing me off. So much so, I may eventually abandon current D&D altogether and return to previous edition D&D. There are too many people who would so willingly throw away the past in the name of making a "better" game that I risk being overwhelmed by it. More's the pity that too few of us seem to care. Certainly not enough to change things. And no, I expect no sympathy, except maybe from those who feel as I do.
It seems weird though that sometimes in some of the 4E stuff I read, it looks like the designers are attempting to take at least some inspiration from the past but at the same time they are fundamentally changing the mechanics of the game.
| | Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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