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Subject: The Planes!

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GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/26/2007 1:40 PM  
From the latest Design and Development article:

Secret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed.

The Feywild

The closest of these alternate worlds is the Feywild, or the realm of faerie. It is an “echo” of the mortal world, a parallel dimension in which the natural features of the lands and seas are arranged in much the same configuration. If a mountain stands in a given place in the mortal world, a similar mountain stands in a corresponding place in the Feywild. However, the Feywild is not an exact reproduction. Built structures and terrains are not copied in the faerie realm, so a valley dotted with farm fields and towns in the mortal world would simply exist as untouched, unsettled woodland in the Feywild.

The Feywild’s many vistas can catch your breath with beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild might encounter:

  • A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
  • The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
  • A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
  • A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.

The Shadowfell

Just as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken. Some undead creatures are born in the Shadowfell, and other undead are bound to it, but some living beings dwell in this benighted realm.

Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. The shadowy echo of a thriving seaport in the mortal world might be a dilapidated, desolate port whose harbor is cluttered with the rotting hulks of shipwrecks and whose busy wharves are empty except for a few silent and furtive passersby. In the Shadowfell, heroes might venture into:

  • A necromancer’s tower;
  • The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns;
  • A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness; or
  • The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.

The Elemental Chaos

All of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth, rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds and lightning collide in the elemental plane.

Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or tamed the living elements to build their domains.

Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—and in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:

  • The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
  • A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
  • The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
  • A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.

The Astral Sea

One final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea’s unlimited silver deeps. Some of these are realms of glory and splendor—the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of Arvandor…. Others belong to dark powers, such as the Nine Hells where Asmodeus governs his infernal kingdom. A few astral dominions lie abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have fallen.

Only the mightiest of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves. In the Astral Sea, heroes may find:

  • The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells;
  • An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron;
  • The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium; or
  • A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.

No one is knows how many astral dominions there are. Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, are the size of worlds. Others are no larger than cities, rising like shining islets from the Astral Sea. Several dominions have been ruined or abandoned, usually because the gods who made them were destroyed or forgotten. What sorts of treasures—or perils—might slumber in such places, only learned sages could say.



"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..."

GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/26/2007 1:41 PM  
I know people will hate it, but as a long-time Planescape fan, I still think it's cool.

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Quinte West, Ontario, Canada

09/26/2007 1:52 PM  
Thanks for the post GuJiaXian...they really REALLY changed things...wow...

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Roswell, GA

09/26/2007 1:57 PM  
No worries. Is it sad that the one thing in the article that discouraged me more than anything else is that magma hurlers are likely going to be core monsters? Bleh.

"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..."
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West Valley City, Utah

09/26/2007 2:19 PM  
What's a shadar-kai?

I don't think I like having different dimensions where the feywild is another dimension. I liked fey being part of the regular world.

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GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/26/2007 2:46 PM  
I actually see the Feywild as a big nod to the World of Darkness, what with the Umbra and all.

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The G Spot

09/26/2007 2:54 PM  
Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/26/2007 2:46 PM
I actually see the Feywild as a big nod to the World of Darkness, what with the Umbra and all.

Have no idea what that means.

I don't hate what I've read, but I don't love it either. I need more info. However, after reading the Feywild part, several good adventure ideas popped into my head.

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GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/26/2007 2:55 PM  
The World of Darkness is White Wolf's gaming system (you've likely heard of Vampire: The Masquerade). The Umbra is a shadowy fey "between" world in the Werewolf game.

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West Valley City, Utah

09/26/2007 5:39 PM  
Anyone know what a shadar-kai is? A new thing?

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Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan

09/26/2007 6:43 PM  

Overal I really like the sound of this.

The shadar-kai are a race of shadow-fey warriors.

Fiend folio 3rd edition or something like that.


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Netherlands

09/27/2007 1:55 AM  
I'm starting to like 4e more and more,

D.

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09/27/2007 2:06 AM  
The previous cosmology worked well for me, especially the elemental planes infinite sphere. I'll keep them as they were, even if I ever DM 4E.
The change of the aligned planes (the great wheel) is not surprising, as much of alignment is going away in 4E. Not sure the new organisation is better than the great wheel though.
The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.

The only real good news is that we may get a dryad in the future after all

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New Britain, CT

09/27/2007 2:11 AM  
I like some of the ideas here and am interested in reading more. It's about time that they released something that didn't piss me off about 4th edition. I'm still not excited about 4th edition yet. I'm still entrenched in my "Wait and See" mode.

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GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/27/2007 8:00 AM  
Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:06 AM
The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.


Do note that the description says that people die and go to the Shadowfell only for a short time (in most cases). They then pass on to the "great unknown," which in my mind is analagous to the classical heaven and hell.

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The Red Light District

09/27/2007 8:32 AM  
Eventually, just by dumb luck, they're bound to come up with something I like. Don't know when, but eventually. This isn't it. If I wanted White Wolf's cosmology, I'd play their games.

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09/27/2007 10:46 AM  
Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/27/2007 8:00 AM
Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:06 AM
The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.


Do note that the description says that people die and go to the Shadowfell only for a short time (in most cases). They then pass on to the "great unknown," which in my mind is analagous to the classical heaven and hell.

Hopefully (notice they don't say "short", however). Because I can't see why a good soul should endure the shadowfell as they describe it, especially through the encounters examples...
Maybe the system has been totally changed : souls don't go to the "outer" planes anymore, and they just fade forever after a time in the shadowfell. Maybe demons and devils don't need evil souls anymore to fuel their ranks. We'll see.
But that's at least a 4E book I'm impatient to read...
And I'm beginning to think we'll see shadowfell setting books... Could be great if there's a very coherent design behind the shadowfell.

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Markham, Ontario Canada

09/28/2007 6:36 AM  
Started to like it, then it turned on me... nope, not going to use it.

I pretty much always use my own planes philosophy anyways. Might steal something from it, but as a fact of life in my campaign, isn't going to happen.


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GuJiaXian
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Roswell, GA

09/28/2007 8:54 AM  
In Rich Baker's latest blog, he gives us some more information on the new cosmology.

"Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign).

"Oh, and regarding the Abyss: When I said thousands, I think I was thinking of Jupiter thousands. Jupiter's like 80,000 miles across and 300 times the size of the Earth. The Abyss is big like that."

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Gatineau Canada

09/28/2007 1:18 PM  
If I play 4th Edition I would still keep the way the planes were... I liked it before. But then again I play in the Realms.
but thats if I play 4th Edition.

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Roswell, GA

09/28/2007 1:26 PM  
Well, even in 3rd edition the Realms' cosmology was radically different than that presented in the DMG and MotP.

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Gatineau Canada

09/28/2007 1:56 PM  
Oh i agree its just that I find the information that they have leaked about what the planes are going to be seems very basic and mushed in together. I like my planes very distinict and more out there. The desriptions that they detail seems very simple like Feywild is were the Fey are and such. Not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly here. :(

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09/29/2007 7:22 AM  
Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/26/2007 1:40 PM

Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures.

Question : what happens when a structure (let's say castle) is being built in the world : does it appear simultaneously in the shadowfell ? If so do we see hordes of undead constructing it or does it appear "out of nothing" ?
I could probably find tons of similar questions.

Oh, and I've just read that this new core cosmology will also be used for the FR.

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09/29/2007 7:25 AM  
Another one : if we assume there are similar solar systems and planets in the "prime material", and so inhabited worlds, we can assume each one has its own shadowfell. Is it possible to travel in the shadowfell of another world ?
Are these 2 shadowfells linked or completely independant ?

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09/29/2007 7:35 AM  
Another thing : it appears that these parallel dimensions will be quite easy to travel to, since the first 4E adventure (logically targeting 1st-level adventurers) is called "keep on the shadowfell".

That's not bad news afterall. We can create a "year 2100" FR with technology spaceships, psi networks and anything you want... It will just be a parallel dimension of the FR (or your own homebrew BTW). Easier to add than in the previous cosmology. (Note that I still prefer the previous one...)

Cormyr anti-matter powered battlecruisers !!!



(Just hoping WotC are not reading this, I wouldn't want to give them bad ideas that could end-up in a 2014 setting book...)

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09/29/2007 11:16 AM  
Personally I like it- it feels more mythological to me than the strange jumble that 3.5 had, where you had these weird overlaps like Hell being where the evil souls go, but so is the Abyss! I could see some fantastic things being done with interface between faewild and shadowfell- like needing to retrieve information from a dead soul before it faded, PCs meeting the souls of those they knew in life, or killed in battle. In Faewild, PCs being decieved and confused by the strangely alien landscapes and dark things hidden in familiar places.

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09/29/2007 11:18 AM  
This is... interesting. I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. I'm claiming right of Jeff to copy Ghendar. ;)

I find myself leaning more and more towards SAGA instead of 4E...

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New Britain, CT

09/29/2007 7:25 PM  
Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/28/2007 8:54 AM
In Rich Baker's latest blog, he gives us some more information on the new cosmology.

"Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign).

The thing that I do like about this is it seems as though it will be easy to make the planes in your campaign as simple or as complicated as you'd like.

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