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GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/26/2007 1:40 PM |
| From the latest Design and Development article:
Secret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons
game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie
realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these
things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that
adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed. The Feywild The
closest of these alternate worlds is the Feywild, or the realm of
faerie. It is an “echo” of the mortal world, a parallel dimension in
which the natural features of the lands and seas are arranged in much
the same configuration. If a mountain stands in a given place in the
mortal world, a similar mountain stands in a corresponding place in the
Feywild. However, the Feywild is not an exact reproduction. Built
structures and terrains are not copied in the faerie realm, so a valley
dotted with farm fields and towns in the mortal world would simply
exist as untouched, unsettled woodland in the Feywild.
The Feywild’s many vistas can catch your breath with
beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild
might encounter: - A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
- The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
- A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
- A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.
The ShadowfellJust as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so
is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a
different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the
spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their
previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken. Some undead
creatures are born in the Shadowfell, and other undead are bound to it,
but some living beings dwell in this benighted realm. Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the
mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects
built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should
be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. The shadowy echo of a
thriving seaport in the mortal world might be a dilapidated, desolate
port whose harbor is cluttered with the rotting hulks of shipwrecks and
whose busy wharves are empty except for a few silent and furtive
passersby. In the Shadowfell, heroes might venture into: - A necromancer’s tower;
- The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns;
- A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness; or
- The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.
The Elemental Chaos All
of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild
or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse
of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all
fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth,
rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds
and lightning collide in the elemental plane.
Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and
shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands
amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire
falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty
mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or
tamed the living elements to build their domains. Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through
the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and
salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the
nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and
corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably
vast—thousands of miles in extent—and in its maw swirl hundreds of
demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the
tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes
might explore: - The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
- A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
- The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
- A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and
flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant
warlock lies hidden.
The Astral SeaOne final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal
world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of
physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The
divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea’s
unlimited silver deeps. Some of these are realms of glory and
splendor—the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of
Arvandor…. Others belong to dark powers, such as the Nine Hells where
Asmodeus governs his infernal kingdom. A few astral dominions lie
abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have
fallen. Only the mightiest of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves. In the Astral Sea, heroes may find: - The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells;
- An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron;
- The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium; or
- A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.
No one is knows how many astral dominions there are.
Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, are the size of worlds. Others
are no larger than cities, rising like shining islets from the Astral
Sea. Several dominions have been ruined or abandoned, usually because
the gods who made them were destroyed or forgotten. What sorts of
treasures—or perils—might slumber in such places, only learned sages
could say.
| | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/26/2007 1:41 PM |
| | I know people will hate it, but as a long-time Planescape fan, I still think it's cool. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Shottglazz Underboss
 1139 Posts



 Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 09/26/2007 1:52 PM |
| | Thanks for the post GuJiaXian...they really REALLY changed things...wow... | | Shottglazz "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand; I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 51 ): Pikel, Darrell x2, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x4, Wraithborne x6, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x4, Generic Fighter, Auric, Relientkitten Pending trades ( 2 ): relientKitten x2 WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/26/2007 1:57 PM |
| | No worries. Is it sad that the one thing in the article that discouraged me more than anything else is that magma hurlers are likely going to be core monsters? Bleh. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6810 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/26/2007 2:19 PM |
| What's a shadar-kai?
I don't think I like having different dimensions where the feywild is another dimension. I liked fey being part of the regular world. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/26/2007 2:46 PM |
| | I actually see the Feywild as a big nod to the World of Darkness, what with the Umbra and all. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12482 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 09/26/2007 2:54 PM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/26/2007 2:46 PM I actually see the Feywild as a big nod to the World of Darkness, what with the Umbra and all. Have no idea what that means.
I don't hate what I've read, but I don't love it either. I need more info. However, after reading the Feywild part, several good adventure ideas popped into my head.
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/26/2007 2:55 PM |
| | The World of Darkness is White Wolf's gaming system (you've likely heard of Vampire: The Masquerade). The Umbra is a shadowy fey "between" world in the Werewolf game. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6810 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/26/2007 5:39 PM |
| | Anyone know what a shadar-kai is? A new thing? | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| minatoman38 Underboss
 1363 Posts



 Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
 | | 09/26/2007 6:43 PM |
| Overal I really like the sound of this. The shadar-kai are a race of shadow-fey warriors. Fiend folio 3rd edition or something like that. | | Robert Rosehart Champion of the pixie
| |
| Dordledum Commander
 3409 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 09/27/2007 1:55 AM |
| I'm starting to like 4e more and more,
D. | | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/27/2007 2:06 AM |
| The previous cosmology worked well for me, especially the elemental planes infinite sphere. I'll keep them as they were, even if I ever DM 4E. The change of the aligned planes (the great wheel) is not surprising, as much of alignment is going away in 4E. Not sure the new organisation is better than the great wheel though. The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.
The only real good news is that we may get a dryad in the future after all  | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 09/27/2007 2:11 AM |
| | I like some of the ideas here and am interested in reading more. It's about time that they released something that didn't piss me off about 4th edition. I'm still not excited about 4th edition yet. I'm still entrenched in my "Wait and See" mode. | | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/27/2007 8:00 AM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:06 AM The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.
Do note that the description says that people die and go to the Shadowfell only for a short time (in most cases). They then pass on to the "great unknown," which in my mind is analagous to the classical heaven and hell.
| | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 4531 Posts



 The Red Light District
 | | 09/27/2007 8:32 AM |
| | Eventually, just by dumb luck, they're bound to come up with something I like. Don't know when, but eventually. This isn't it. If I wanted White Wolf's cosmology, I'd play their games. | | Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card -Jimgang
May I mambo dogface in the banana patch? -Steve Martin | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/27/2007 10:46 AM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/27/2007 8:00 AM Posted By PaSquall on 09/27/2007 2:06 AM The shadowfell is another gripe for me : why should the spirits of the dead SYSTEMATICALLY go to a wretched gloomy place after death ? The classic idea of heaven/hell duality (and each soul went where it was meant to, reflecting alignment and acts in mortal life) was better IMO. Though as usual I'll have to wait for complete descriptions of these planes when the books are out. Most probbaly I'll stick to the 1E/planescape vision, and add interesting tidbits of 4E's system.
Do note that the description says that people die and go to the Shadowfell only for a short time (in most cases). They then pass on to the "great unknown," which in my mind is analagous to the classical heaven and hell. Hopefully (notice they don't say "short", however). Because I can't see why a good soul should endure the shadowfell as they describe it, especially through the encounters examples... Maybe the system has been totally changed : souls don't go to the "outer" planes anymore, and they just fade forever after a time in the shadowfell. Maybe demons and devils don't need evil souls anymore to fuel their ranks. We'll see. But that's at least a 4E book I'm impatient to read... And I'm beginning to think we'll see shadowfell setting books... Could be great if there's a very coherent design behind the shadowfell. | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| berus316 Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Markham, Ontario Canada
 | | 09/28/2007 6:36 AM |
| Started to like it, then it turned on me... nope, not going to use it.
I pretty much always use my own planes philosophy anyways. Might steal something from it, but as a fact of life in my campaign, isn't going to happen.
| | Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304 H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/28/2007 8:54 AM |
| In Rich Baker's latest blog, he gives us some more information on the new cosmology.
"Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign).
"Oh, and regarding the Abyss: When I said thousands, I think I was thinking of Jupiter thousands. Jupiter's like 80,000 miles across and 300 times the size of the Earth. The Abyss is big like that." | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| yack Commander
 3270 Posts



 Gatineau Canada
 | | 09/28/2007 1:18 PM |
| If I play 4th Edition I would still keep the way the planes were... I liked it before. But then again I play in the Realms. but thats if I play 4th Edition. | | Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/28/2007 1:26 PM |
| | Well, even in 3rd edition the Realms' cosmology was radically different than that presented in the DMG and MotP. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| yack Commander
 3270 Posts



 Gatineau Canada
 | | 09/28/2007 1:56 PM |
| | Oh i agree its just that I find the information that they have leaked about what the planes are going to be seems very basic and mushed in together. I like my planes very distinict and more out there. The desriptions that they detail seems very simple like Feywild is were the Fey are and such. Not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly here. :( | | Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/29/2007 7:22 AM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/26/2007 1:40 PM Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. Question : what happens when a structure (let's say castle) is being built in the world : does it appear simultaneously in the shadowfell ? If so do we see hordes of undead constructing it or does it appear "out of nothing" ? I could probably find tons of similar questions.
Oh, and I've just read that this new core cosmology will also be used for the FR. | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/29/2007 7:25 AM |
| Another one : if we assume there are similar solar systems and planets in the "prime material", and so inhabited worlds, we can assume each one has its own shadowfell. Is it possible to travel in the shadowfell of another world ? Are these 2 shadowfells linked or completely independant ? | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/29/2007 7:35 AM |
| Another thing : it appears that these parallel dimensions will be quite easy to travel to, since the first 4E adventure (logically targeting 1st-level adventurers) is called "keep on the shadowfell".
That's not bad news afterall. We can create a "year 2100" FR with technology spaceships, psi networks and anything you want... It will just be a parallel dimension of the FR (or your own homebrew BTW). Easier to add than in the previous cosmology. (Note that I still prefer the previous one...)
Cormyr anti-matter powered battlecruisers !!!
(Just hoping WotC are not reading this, I wouldn't want to give them bad ideas that could end-up in a 2014 setting book...) | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| warty_nosed_goblin Underboss
 1384 Posts




 | | 09/29/2007 11:16 AM |
| | Personally I like it- it feels more mythological to me than the strange jumble that 3.5 had, where you had these weird overlaps like Hell being where the evil souls go, but so is the Abyss! I could see some fantastic things being done with interface between faewild and shadowfell- like needing to retrieve information from a dead soul before it faded, PCs meeting the souls of those they knew in life, or killed in battle. In Faewild, PCs being decieved and confused by the strangely alien landscapes and dark things hidden in familiar places. | | Call me: W.N. Gobo! originally posted by grim: While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7675 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 09/29/2007 11:18 AM |
| This is... interesting. I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. I'm claiming right of Jeff to copy Ghendar. ;)
I find myself leaning more and more towards SAGA instead of 4E... | | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 09/29/2007 7:25 PM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/28/2007 8:54 AM In Rich Baker's latest blog, he gives us some more information on the new cosmology.
"Here's one of the really cool features of the new cosmology that isn't explicitly called out in the article: Each world has its own set of astral dominions. You can make up as many celestial courts or reeking hells as you need to support your pantheon. So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary. Customize your own pantheons, and you can create each outer plane you need. I think it's good if some planes appear in every world's cosmology (the Nine Hells spring to mind), but there's no reason they have to. The constraints imposed by the Great Wheel aren't tying our hands anymore (but if you really really like the Great Wheel, well, no reason you can't have each of those planes as the astral dominions for your own campaign).
The thing that I do like about this is it seems as though it will be easy to make the planes in your campaign as simple or as complicated as you'd like.
| | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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