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vanrulzz Commander
 2523 Posts



 ¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 10/08/2007 6:05 AM |
| this went up 2 days ago...
Grab a d20. Roll high. That’s the basic rule of 4th Edition just as it was in 3rd Edition, but the new edition puts that mechanic more solidly in the core of the game than ever. Ever faced one of those life-or-death saving throws? Hours, weeks, or even years of play can hang in the balance. It all comes down to that one roll. There’s drama in that moment, but it’s drama you didn’t create, and you don’t want. That’s gone in the new edition. Have you played a spellcaster and been a little envious of the excitement of other players when they roll critical hits? Have you wished that you could do that for your spells? You can in 4th. Have you ever had some confusion or miscalculation about your normal AC versus your touch and flat-footed AC?  You won’t have to worry about it. If you want to know whether or not you succeed in doing some action in 4th Edition, you grab a d20 and try to roll high. Just as in 3rd Edition, you add a modifier to that roll from your character sheet, and you check for any extra bonuses or penalties from the situation or from your allies. The key difference in the new edition is what you roll for and what you add. The standard defenses remain (AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will) but now they all work more like AC. When a dragon breathes fire on you, it attacks your Reflex and deals half damage if it misses. The DM rolls a d20, adds the dragon’s modifiers, and asks you what your Reflex score is. The dragon might roll a 1 and automatically miss no matter how much tougher it is than you, but there’s also the frightening possibility that it will roll a 20 and deal double damage. Folks familiar with the new Star Wars Saga system will recognize this concept, but it’s evolved a bit to better suit D&D. In 4th Edition, when a creature only needs to touch you to deliver an attack, it targets your Reflex. When you’re surprised, you grant combat advantage, but you don’t need to look at a special AC on your sheet -- the normal number works fine. When a pit suddenly opens up beneath your feet, you make a check to jump out of danger, but if a crossbow trap fires an arrow at you, it the bolt attacks your AC. What we mean when we talk about streamlining the system is this: making design decisions that make learning and using the game less difficult, while keeping the system just as robust. And making it more fun as the result.
not much new stuff there, but still useful. | | | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 10/08/2007 7:45 AM |
| I had no intent to comment at first, but frankly I can't help it. Posted By vanrulzz on 10/08/2007 6:05 AM this went up 2 days ago... Ever faced one of those life-or-death saving throws? Hours, weeks, or even years of play can hang in the balance. It all comes down to that one roll. There’s drama in that moment, but it’s drama you didn’t create, and you don’t want. That’s gone in the new edition.
So we keep on with this 3E trend : less and less risk involved, life or death effects disappear.
But what the point in playing this game if danger disappears ? Shouldn't heroes take great risks to be... HEROES ? (and BTW, does raise dead disappear in 4E ?)
Reminds me when we explored the crypts of Ravenloft some 20 years ago, and we opened the tombs and we didn't know what kind of horror could be inside, and our group slowly getting tired and weaker, spells almost exhausted, and Stradh lurking somewhere... Anxiety and excitement, that I still recall as if it was yesterday. Not sure I'd get that kind of excitement in 4E now, even if I was a beginner. Games with no real danger get boring quickly. No risk = no fun.
Have you played a spellcaster and been a little envious of the excitement of other players when they roll critical hits? Have you wished that you could do that for your spells? You can in 4th.
A large part of the fun of playing a wizard was the sheer number of possibilities offered by the spells : damage of course, but party buffs, teleportation, divination, conjuration of allies, cleverly used illusions, etc. It looks like the 4E wizard is only a basic battlemage (fireball ! magic missile ! cone of cold ! fireball ! err... fireball !) Only a feeling I have, but that's not the first article I'm reading this (wizards having a specific "role", etc.)
Have you ever had some confusion or miscalculation about your normal AC versus your touch and flat-footed AC? You won’t have to worry about it.
Why not simplifying ? Never thought it was that hard to calculate my AC though... Some of us here will call this "subtle 3E bashing" 
The standard defenses remain (AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will) but now they all work more like AC. When a dragon breathes fire on you, it attacks your Reflex and deals half damage if it misses. The DM rolls a d20, adds the dragon’s modifiers, and asks you what your Reflex score is. The dragon might roll a 1 and automatically miss no matter how much tougher it is than you, but there’s also the frightening possibility that it will roll a 20 and deal double damage.
That's illogical. Didn't they say just above that "we" didn't want these life-or-death situations anymore ? And you don't even have the chance to roll the dice, it's the DM...
Unless a fire-breathing dragon DOUBLING his damage is not a threat anymore for an adventurer. If this is it, I'm not interested in this game. From various articles I've read, it looks like the adventurers are turning like marvel superheroes/hollywood movies heroes/cartoon characters : they appear to be in danger, but you know they always succeed in the end and never die. I have always been bored by systematic happy endings, and the lack of suspense...
I'm probably in the minority. And I just don't care.
| | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6802 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 10/08/2007 9:42 AM |
| | I agree with PaSquall. No risk=no fun. Also, superhero characters without risk of dying on one roll are stupid and boring. I really don't like Eberron due to superhero feel. Action points are dumb. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 10/08/2007 10:32 PM |
| I don't care what they do to the rules - characters can die in any game I run. Especially if they're stupid.
As for the rest of the article, I'm neutral.
I never had a problem with save or die effects but I won't miss them either.
If evasion exists and it's possible to take half or no damage from a spell I suppose it makes sense for the opposite to happen so getting a critical with a spell is ok. I wonder if they'll have the improved critical feat with spells.
I like that they're simplifying the game but I don't know if it's necessary to simplify AC. It doesn't take much more time to calculate your touch or flatfooted AC than it does to calculate your reflex save. Even if it did you should calculate it when you get new armor or your stats change and write it down on your character sheet. I'm not sure how helpful this will be.
The streamlined game may play better than what we have now. I can't tell until I play it. | | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12319 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 10/09/2007 4:51 AM |
| Adventuring nerfed just for you. How long before we are able to "save" our game and then reload when we die?
I can just see it now. WotC's spin for 5E will be along the lines of, hey, remember how much it sucked when that dragon tore your PC into little bits of chum with its claws? We've fixed that in 5E, all you have to do is reload your saved game and your good to go.
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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|  zenthrus Warlord
 5082 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 10/09/2007 6:49 AM |
| Hmmm...another nail in the coffin so to speak. My current gaming group already won't engage in battle with anything that might even remotely pose a threat (eek, it's an Ankheg RUN!). I'm seriously considering disbanding the group (which will be sad since I'll have to find another group to game with). Granted, since I'm the only person who doesn't play Neutral Evil (their character sheets all show varying degrees of good, but...) it's probably better for my sanity to go sans gaming than continue to deal with subpar-gaming.
If I want to play consequence-free RPGs I'll stick with console/computer games with save points.
Well, I suppose I really should just be thankful. The less interest I have in 4E, the less money I'll end up spending on it and the happier my wallet will be.  | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 4195 Posts



 West Virginia
 | | 10/09/2007 10:14 AM |
| Trying to add something without just going, "Yeah, what he said!!!"
There is nothing difficult about AC, be it touch, flat-footed or otherwise. There's a nice space on your character sheet for it and everything.
I find it very sad indeed that one day very soon, I'll be hanging out in the FLGS talking to one of my buddies about past adventures and some kid will say, "What's a saving throw?"
I definitely agree that there's little difference in a wizard or cleric pointing at you and saying, "die" and a dragon critting on a breath weapon. Either way, it's one roll of a die and you're dead. If not, well I have even less interest in a game where a dragon's breath is so weak that doubling the damage still won't kill someone, though I supect that may be true, especially with the "math is hard and it typically takes 20 minutes to add up 15d6 so roll a couple and take an average for the rest" approach that seems to be coming.
| | Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies. -Roger the Shrubber | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6802 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 10/09/2007 11:55 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 10/09/2007 6:49 AM Hmmm...another nail in the coffin so to speak. My current gaming group already won't engage in battle with anything that might even remotely pose a threat (eek, it's an Ankheg RUN!). I'm seriously considering disbanding the group (which will be sad since I'll have to find another group to game with). Granted, since I'm the only person who doesn't play Neutral Evil (their character sheets all show varying degrees of good, but...) it's probably better for my sanity to go sans gaming than continue to deal with subpar-gaming. If I want to play consequence-free RPGs I'll stick with console/computer games with save points. Well, I suppose I really should just be thankful. The less interest I have in 4E, the less money I'll end up spending on it and the happier my wallet will be.  If you end up disbanding that group, and are looking for a group more on the good side, there may be room in my group, and I don't think I live too far away.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| thekidxii Sergeant
 450 Posts



 No Yack. I said.. we need a DM not BM!
 | | 10/09/2007 8:07 PM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 10/09/2007 10:14 AM
I find it very sad indeed that one day very soon, I'll be hanging out in the FLGS talking to one of my buddies about past adventures and some kid will say, "What's a saving throw?"
LOL Kinda' like THAC0 is now? | | Champion of the dire hippo. Audi Vide Tace "Nothing matters but the weekend, From a Tuesday point of view" -Diamond & Zero | |
| Shottglazz Underboss
 1101 Posts



 Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 10/09/2007 9:56 PM |
| | I miss THAC0 - it wasn't difficult for those who could do basic math...on topic, I'd have to agree that this is getting a little silly...no danger = no risk...might as well be playing a dwarven smith who doesn't adventure or a halfling grocer, or human farmer, etc... | | Shottglazz "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand; I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 51 ): Pikel, Darrell x2, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x4, Wraithborne x6, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x4, Generic Fighter, Auric, Relientkitten Pending trades ( 3 ): relientKitten x2, Redskullz WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 6650 Posts




 | | 10/09/2007 10:44 PM |
| | There's still risk, it's just that the risk is not INSTA death. Sometimes insta-death is better though. Ever been force choked? I'd rather just take the damage each round and be able to do something, than take damage and get to do - nothing. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| berus316 Sergeant
 654 Posts



 Markham, Ontario Canada
 | | 10/09/2007 11:57 PM |
| Goodbye save or die.... I can live with that... I'm sure my PCs will love that.
Attacking Reflex vs AC with touch attack seems to be common sense to me. I like it. I hope they continue down this route.
Change is good. I'm liking everything I've read so far.
| | Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304 H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
| Dimitris Warrior
 195 Posts



 Athens - Greece
 | | 10/10/2007 12:17 AM |
| I 100% agree with Pasquall. I don't like the superhero feel.
Dimitris | | Ha 72/80 De 55/60 Ar 52/60 GoL 67/72 Ab 56/60 Dk 55/60 Af 54/60 Ud 57/60 Wd 57/60 WQ 55/60 BW 57/60 Uh 55/60 NB 55/60 DD 57/60 DuD 53/60 AtG 48/60 | |
| Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 10/10/2007 9:30 AM |
| Posted By Dimitris on 10/10/2007 12:17 AM I 100% agree with Pasquall. I don't like the superhero feel.
I like the superhero feel sometimes. That's why I make it a point to get in on a game of Mutants and Masterminds or some other comic based game each time I go to a gaming convention.
But it's only fun for me for one shot games where I have no vested interest in the character. For a long running D&D campaign I want there to be risk and consequences. As in real life - success means nothing without the risk of failure. | | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
|  zenthrus Warlord
 5082 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 10/10/2007 9:14 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 10/09/2007 11:55 AM If you end up disbanding that group, and are looking for a group more on the good side, there may be room in my group, and I don't think I live too far away.
I may take you up on that. | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6802 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 10/11/2007 10:29 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 10/10/2007 9:14 PM Posted By Corim Danex on 10/09/2007 11:55 AM If you end up disbanding that group, and are looking for a group more on the good side, there may be room in my group, and I don't think I live too far away.
I may take you up on that.
We usually play every other Saturday from about 6 pm until about midnight. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12319 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 10/11/2007 11:24 AM |
| I understand why some don't like save or die effects (SOD). However, I'm not one of them. I think they have a place in the game and probably should not come into play until higher levels.
Once again, WotC is deciding for me what is and is not fun. | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6802 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 10/12/2007 4:41 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 10/11/2007 11:24 AM I understand why some don't like save or die effects (SOD). However, I'm not one of them. I think they have a place in the game and probably should not come into play until higher levels.
Once again, WotC is deciding for me what is and is not fun. I agree that higher levels are better for save or die effects. I would say that after the party cleric can raise dead is a good time for save or die effects. Sure, if someone dies they will lose a chunk of experience. But that's part of what makes the game interesting.
My dwarf fighter 13/paladin 1 has had 3 very close calls, and they were some of the highlights of his adventuring life.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| vanrulzz Commander
 2523 Posts



 ¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 10/14/2007 2:28 PM |
| | I HATE SAVE OR DIE. THANK YOU WOTC. | | | |
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