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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6039 Posts
    
 | | 10/18/2007 5:17 PM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 10/18/2007 11:37 AM
"twisted, devious, or untrustworthy" doesnt make you evil.Probably describes a lot of playe characters especially rogues. Since people have reference hellboy i will as well. He does not show up on the detect evil spell. Nor does Drizzt or Lestat or a halforc. You don't find "twisted" falls under evil personality traits? | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1346 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 10/19/2007 3:25 AM |
| I haven't read this whole thread so this may have already been covered but I for one am very glad the warlock will be included. As a DM it has been one of my Core NPC classes for quite sometime now. Both the concept and the simple use abilities are great. Although it is called the players handbook it is actually a resource for both sides of the fence. It is good to have a really good bad guy (useable from 1st level unlike the DDM's prestiges) in a core book. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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wicked cool
Underboss
2091 Posts
| | 10/19/2007 8:34 AM |
| no i dont think twisted is evil. Twistd is eccentric or flawed as compared to rest of society. The professor in back to the future is twisted. Sur twisted could be applied to other "evil characters in history" but its a reach to say its evil.
Im curious to see if the whole debate on warlocks and tieflings has anything to do with personal religious beliefs? That playing a tiefling or warlock is seen as evil and cannot be justified. Ive brought up half orc up this same discussion and theres been no objections in the past to half orcs. Did anyone play a minotaur in the dragonlance world. In most cases minotaurs are considered evil creatures. no objections to those. Some such as Kaz became somewhat famous. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6039 Posts
| | 10/19/2007 10:38 AM |
| Yeh, for me, demons/devils (and I guess daemons) are inherently evil. There's no fractionilzation or rationalization for their behaviours, they are evil. And it does stem from my beliefs/faith for certain.
A Minotaur or Orc are only creatures with particular limitations or behavioural traits, not immortal souls designed purely for chaos and destruction. I can understand why nobody cares about whether an orc or minotaur is evil or mis-understood - but a demon/devil, absolutely. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/19/2007 10:49 AM |
| Wicked cool: I think tieflings are seen as potentially different because they have demonic blood flowing in their veins, while orcs and minotaurs don't. Myself, i do not see this as problematic as it can easily be explained as insufficient to teint generations and generations with intrinsic, inevitable evilness, so having good tieflings is quite OK from my standpoint, but that's only my own opinion.
As a side note, this will fit quite well in my homebrew, where outsider blood runs in many mortals. The material plane where the action takes place (which is a single world, no universe surrounding it) originates from the main outer plane (i don't use the great wheel) and represents a fragment thereof that was cut from the rest during the everlasting blood war (or the equivalent thereof). So initially, this world had mostly native outsiders as inhabitants. However, as it was separated from the main outer plane, it lost over thousands and thousands of years its intrinsic magical aura. The immortals gradually lost their powers and eventually even began to age, effectively becoming mortals. Still, there are some remnants of powers past in the blood that flows in the mortals of the world, and it is not infrequent that some of them have special powers that come from unknown origins. Sorcerers take their power from that, some pseudo-psionnic powers also exist and some people having the tiefling or aasimar templates (or modified templates) also have that kind of power.
This being said, no alignment restrictions are associated to these powers. You can be the very distant descendant of a powerful demon, have some powers that originate therefrom, and still be good or evil without anything to do with that.
So overall, the tiefling and planes versions in 4E fit my homebrew better than the 3.5 version did.
As for warlocks, i haven't used them in 3.5 as we stuck to core. If/when i buy 4E, i'll see if i want to incorporate warlocks as a class in my world.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 10/19/2007 2:15 PM |
| Im curious to see if the whole debate on warlocks and tieflings has anything to do with personal religious beliefs? That playing a tiefling or warlock is seen as evil and cannot be justified. Ive brought up half orc up this same discussion and theres been no objections in the past to half orcs. Did anyone play a minotaur in the dragonlance world. In most cases minotaurs are considered evil creatures. no objections to those.
Interestingly enough, my willingness to see Tieflings as potentially good creatures also springs from my faith. I see no reason to follow or worship a God who predetermines the fate of any of His/Her creations. I really don't believe in the existence of Satan or Demons, but if they exist I would expect God to have given them a choice as well. I see an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's watch. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6686 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/19/2007 3:13 PM |
| Posted By Puggins on 10/19/2007 2:15 PM Im curious to see if the whole debate on warlocks and tieflings has anything to do with personal religious beliefs? That playing a tiefling or warlock is seen as evil and cannot be justified. Ive brought up half orc up this same discussion and theres been no objections in the past to half orcs. Did anyone play a minotaur in the dragonlance world. In most cases minotaurs are considered evil creatures. no objections to those. Interestingly enough, my willingness to see Tieflings as potentially good creatures also springs from my faith. I see no reason to follow or worship a God who predetermines the fate of any of His/Her creations. I really don't believe in the existence of Satan or Demons, but if they exist I would expect God to have given them a choice as well. I see an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's watch.
At risk of discussing a potentially volatile topic, I will simply state for your background understanding, part of the basis of my beliefs which back up my ideas on this topic. Just to be clear, I am not telling anyone to believe anything. I am just giving background information. PLEASE DON"T READ THIS IF READING RELIGIOUS COMMENTARY WOULD BOTHER YOU.Â
I do not believe any creature was created in this world by our Creator to be evil or good. He doesn't do that. I imagine He hopes they will be good. But He gives them that choice. Including Satan and those who have chosen to follow him. I personally refer to Satan as the devil. Satan was created before he became Satan as one of the children of God along with the rest of us, as spirits, a long time before this earth was formed. During that great span of time between the creation of us as spirits (including Satan and Jesus), Jesus chose to follow God better than anyone else did. Satan became a great leader, and then, down the road from the time he became a great leader, chose to rebel against God. Due to the high stature he held, he influenced many to follow him. Ironically, Puggins observed that he expects God to give us (those He created) a choice. Satan's rebellion was that he wanted to have the children of God not have freedom of choice, but to supposedly gain all the blessings and rewards by being compelled to "live right". Since everyone would do the right things (since they would not be capable of sin) they should all gain the rewards. Satan wished to dethrone God and take His place.
What followed was the fall of Satan (he became a devil as consequence of his choices), the creation of this world, and the opportunity for all those who chose to follow God as spirts the opportunity to come to earth and gain bodies.
Note that Satan, having rebelled, lost the opportunity to gain a body. He doesn't have one and never will have one. Whatever choices he made were so severe, he forever lost the opportunity to gain a body. Among his other lack of attributes is a jealousy that we have bodies and he doesn't, and it's his desire to destroy us any way he can--through direct and/or subtle attacks--through convincing us he's not really there, for example.
Note also that Jesus, after he died, resurrected (meaning he regained his body permanently--only the body he regained when resurrected, while the same one he had while living on earth for about 33 years, was changed so that it would never die again. When Jesus appeared to some of his disciples on the sea, they were afraid because they thought he was a spirit. However, he ate food and asked them to touch him so that they knew he was alive (meaning a spirit in a body joined and living) and not a spirit.
Note also that since we lived as spirits for a great many years (I would venture to say several thousand is an underestimate) before being born, we acquired talents, abilities, etc. which are only demonstrated partially by us on earth--however wecome to earth having certain traits that were developed before being born. Mix into that some sort of inherited abilities (physical, emotional, etc.) from our physical parents on earth, and you have a truly unique person born when a baby is born. Most to virtually all of our memory of our life as spirits before being born is masked during our life on earth to see if we will choose to follow God when we can't really remember living with Him for centuries before being on earth.Â
Note that you will know what I am talking about when you die and see God again. You will be startled to realize how familiar you already are with Him. That will be because you lived with him for centuries before coming to earth and your memory won't be masked forever.
Puggins stated that he sees "an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain
inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's
watch."Â Well, God didn't/doesn't have such a creation.
In reference to D&D--tieflings would be descendants of evil outsiders. In my religious views, "evil outsiders" are incapable of having offspring of any kind since they have no bodies to procreate with. They're just spirits, well evil spirits.
There's a lot more to what I know about religion and the ideas I have posted about than what I have posted. I am just trying to give a taste of the background behind my thoughts about, well, evil outsiders and such.
I am not posting this to debate religious ideas with anyone.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 10/19/2007 4:30 PM |
| Puggins stated that he sees "an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's watch." Well, God didn't/doesn't have such a creation.
I think you got the wrong impression from what I wrote, Corim. You're under the impression that I don't believe in God or that I don't follow him due to reasons that I wrote down. Actually, when I said that this whole Tiefling business "springs from my faith," I meant that I have faith in God too. I'm a practicing Christian, and yes, I agree with you that God doesn't have such a creation. I don't really put much stock in the existence of demons, but if they exist in D&D and D&D assumes they can procreate (which I understand is not possible in your mind), I'd like to think that the progeny would have the same choice that the demons had.
From where you live, what you write and what I learned from living in Idaho, I'm fairly certain I'm familiar with the core of your beliefs, and I have several friends from your same denomination. Even though I'm from a different strain of Cristianity (closest to liberal Catholicism), we share most core convictions, even though certain particulars (ie, the actual existence of Satan and Demons) differ. I have a lot of respect for you faith. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6686 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/19/2007 4:33 PM |
| Posted By Puggins on 10/19/2007 4:30 PM Puggins stated that he sees "an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's watch." Well, God didn't/doesn't have such a creation. I think you got the wrong impression from what I wrote, Corim. You're under the impression that I don't believe in God or that I don't follow him due to reasons that I wrote down. Actually, when I said that this whole Tiefling business "springs from my faith," I meant that I have faith in God too. I'm a practicing Christian, and yes, I agree with you that God doesn't have such a creation. I don't really put much stock in the existence of demons, but if they exist in D&D and D&D assumes they can procreate (which I understand is not possible in your mind), I'd like to think that the progeny would have the same choice that the demons had. From where you live, what you write and what I learned from living in Idaho, I'm fairly certain I'm familiar with the core of your beliefs, and I have several friends from your same denomination. Even though I'm from a different strain of Cristianity (closest to liberal Catholicism), we share most core convictions, even though certain particulars (ie, the actual existence of Satan and Demons) differ. I have a lot of respect for you faith.
I could tell from what you wrote earlier that you believe in God. I would have been quite surprised had you said the opposite in this post, actually. I was agreeing with your comment that God didn't have such a creation. I was saying you were right, but just explaining my perspective on how you were right.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/19/2007 5:53 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 10/19/2007 3:13 PM I have not posted on maxminis for 1-2 days. I am backing away from active participation in the boards as some don't like my negative comments on 4th edition, and there isn't really much else to talk about outside of trading. I have spent far too many hours on maxminis in the last couple of years anyway. It will do me good to use my free time in other ways.
Since your comment stems from a previous post of mine, i'll clarify something here.
You are indeed one of the persons i was referring to in my "constructive 4E" thread. However, i hold nothing against you personnally. My purpose is not to try to get you away from posting here or anything in that respect. I continue reading your posts because many have interesting viewpoints. I have posted my other message in what i hope to be perceived as a calm state of mind. I stand by what i said there, but i hope you and others will continue posting on different various topics (and 4E too if you feel like it, only hopefully with a different perspective) on these boards. My only purpose was to share my impression on how i perceive the way 4E is discussed on these boards. I have no idea if i am right or wrong in what i am saying (and whether there is a right or wrong). Really. However, i share my impression. The way i see it, either i left the boards because of the way the discussion was going on, or i posted that message and saw if i should leave afterwards, i.e. if everyone felt like continuing in the same vein. I believe in trying to sort things out instead of silently enduring.
I don't necessarily think i was misinterpreted, but i wanted it to be clear(er). I certainly did not want to contribute to driving anyone away.
Cheers,
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6686 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/19/2007 8:11 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 10/19/2007 5:53 PM Posted By Corim Danex on 10/19/2007 3:13 PM I have not posted on maxminis for 1-2 days. I am backing away from active participation in the boards as some don't like my negative comments on 4th edition, and there isn't really much else to talk about outside of trading. I have spent far too many hours on maxminis in the last couple of years anyway. It will do me good to use my free time in other ways.
Since your comment stems from a previous post of mine, i'll clarify something here. You are indeed one of the persons i was referring to in my "constructive 4E" thread. However, i hold nothing against you personnally. My purpose is not to try to get you away from posting here or anything in that respect. I continue reading your posts because many have interesting viewpoints. I have posted my other message in what i hope to be perceived as a calm state of mind. I stand by what i said there, but i hope you and others will continue posting on different various topics (and 4E too if you feel like it, only hopefully with a different perspective) on these boards. My only purpose was to share my impression on how i perceive the way 4E is discussed on these boards. I have no idea if i am right or wrong in what i am saying (and whether there is a right or wrong). Really. However, i share my impression. The way i see it, either i left the boards because of the way the discussion was going on, or i posted that message and saw if i should leave afterwards, i.e. if everyone felt like continuing in the same vein. I believe in trying to sort things out instead of silently enduring. I don't necessarily think i was misinterpreted, but i wanted it to be clear(er). I certainly did not want to contribute to driving anyone away. Cheers, Sky
Don't worry about it. I didn't take offense at what you wrote. I saw what you were saying and understood. 4e is ruining part of the D&D experience for me. I think it's best that I back off, though. Not because of me taking offense, but because D&D is going in a direction I don't want it to go, and I am frankly fairly powerless about doing anything about it. I don't think there are enough posters at maxminis now to support a split audience (3.5 and 4e continuing for years to come). The crowd will inevitably shift towards 4e.Â
To be honest, I am not as motivated to read the new design & development and other articles they are posting since deciding that regardless I won't be buying 4e. There's not much point in learning more about it if I am not going to play 4e.
Don't take my fade away as offensive to you. I have been thinking about backing off high frequency posting for a while. A lot of my comments about 4e have really been for WotC to read. I don't think they're "listening" to me though, so I don't need to continue making comments for them to read.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/20/2007 10:57 AM |
| 10-4, this is what i got from your message, but i felt like confirming.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6039 Posts
| | 10/20/2007 11:59 AM |
| Posted By Puggins on 10/19/2007 2:15 PM
Interestingly enough, my willingness to see Tieflings as potentially good creatures also springs from my faith. I see no reason to follow or worship a God who predetermines the fate of any of His/Her creations. I really don't believe in the existence of Satan or Demons, but if they exist I would expect God to have given them a choice as well. I see an inherent lack of justice in a Creation that pre-condemns certain inhabitants, and so don't see such a creation as possible under God's watch.
For me, I can't see part of our education on how good the light is without seeing how dark things truly can be. There is no light without darkness, and darkness was created so that we might strive against it. I do believe in inherent evil, things without choices, evil by necessity. Do lions have a choice about feeding on gazels? Do birds have a choice about mating during a particular season? Some things are just the way they are, inherent. Man was the only creature given choice, and even then we had still been given our own darknesses to strive against; ask any criminal or even anyone living with regret.
I am also a practicing Christian. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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