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Subject: Design & Development - Zombies, get yer zombies here

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The G Spot

10/19/2007 9:29 AM  
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071019a


Shambling, mindless corpses are getting all gussied up for 4E Although it might be hard to believe that something as simple as an animated carcass needed an overhaul, with ample influences in movies and video games, the designers knew the zombie was an ideal guinea pig for applying the new monster philosophy. So they set about keeping the zombie simple to run, but they gave it a clear role and made it feel more like the zombies from the big screen.


Every 3rd Edition D&D player thinks of a zombie, at best, as a tough bag of hit points that can take a beating. At worst, the zombie is seen as a really slow fighter or grist for the turn undead mill. Unfortunately, a Large or smaller 3E zombie really required a weapon to be scary on the damage-dealing side, and they were a lot easier to take out than any movie zombie.


Rethinking the zombie required harkening to the zombie in popular culture while maintaining the D&D elements that make undead cool. Zombies move slowly, dragging their lifeless feet, and it takes a heck of a blow to kill one, so tough is right. But zombies don’t pick up weapons, even convenient ones. They tear you apart with their bare dead hands. They overwhelm you with numbers, drag you down, and eat you.


The new zombie is a brute with just enough reasoning power to know who to kill. It’s easy to hit—zombies don’t dodge—but it’s rotten body just soaks up blows that would kill a living creature. You had better be hitting the zombie hard every time, or it’ll just keep coming. If you manage to hit it really hard, say with a critical hit or a power that deals hefty damage, you might just take the creep out in one fell swing.


That’s right. I did say, “critical hit.” The zombie is vulnerable to that now, which is sweeter than a head shot in any zombie flick.


If you’re a player, take a moment right now to thank the merciful designers that turn undead is still in the game. That power doesn’t send the zombies running off to gods knows where, but if it doesn’t turn them to putrid dust, it does hold them at bay. Believe me—you don’t want zombies close to you. Even though they won’t come wielding greataxes, zombies can take your head off with their vicious slams. The bigger the zombie, the uglier the thump. And when zombies swarm you, some of them are going to grab you, maybe even pulling you to the ground. That’s not the place to be when the dead come knocking.


As a DM, you don’t have to worry about creating the gnoll zombie or the orc zombie. The one set of Medium zombie statistics should do you fine. The players won’t know the difference, except by virtue of your descriptive talents. They should be most worried about the pummeling their characters are taking anyway.


At appropriate levels, a fight against zombies should look more like a horror movie scene. Protagonists have to maneuver to keep away from the possibility of devastating damage while trying to cut their way through a relentless wall of dead flesh. The players get a thrill when a zombie goes down to massive damage, and the DM gets the satisfaction of using a monster that lives up to popular expectations.


It’s a whole new game, even from the very bottom of the undead barrel. Now if we only had a few zombies that added some spice to the basic shambling corpse recipe. Perhaps I’ll go dig a few up for our next look at zombies....


WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
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Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
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10/19/2007 10:18 AM  
Holy crap Ghendar, you sometimes have disturbing avatars :)

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Montreal

10/19/2007 10:32 AM  
I never bought or used the weapon-wielding zombie version myself, so bringing it back to the mindless monster makes sense to me.

This being said, zombies will now do "devastating damage"? I hope this is a colorful expression alike, say, the "terrifying goblins" :) If zombies do "devastating damage", what is to be expected from ogres? Giants? Dragons? I'm looking forward to hearing their choice of words when they describe those beasts...

Overall, not much to put on teeth on in this article. Without numbers and other crunch to support what they say, "devastating damage", "easy to hit", "soaking up blows", that's your usual friendly neighborhood zombie-man, isn't it? Well okay, perhaps i wouldn't qualify the present zombie as doing devastating damage, but that's a question of perspective.

As for zombies now being crit-able, i'm pretty glad for that. Although i understand the idea behind them having no organs and so on, i always figured that whatever the creature, there can always be some way to crit: chop a leg or the head off a zombie, crack the stone golem between your hammer and the column, spill the black pudding over the floor, or whatever.

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The G Spot

10/19/2007 10:43 AM  
Posted By Skyscraper on 10/19/2007 10:18 AM
Holy crap Ghendar, you sometimes have disturbing avatars :)

It's my thing.

WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM

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10/19/2007 10:47 AM  
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 10:43 AM
It's my thing.


Yikes, I'm glad my thing doesn't look like that. :/


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10/19/2007 10:50 AM  
Posted By nyjastul69 on 10/19/2007 10:47 AM
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 10:43 AM
It's my thing.


Yikes, I'm glad my thing doesn't look like that. :/

Haha! :)

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10/19/2007 11:24 AM  
Great googily-moogily YES!! Finally, a fantasy game that does (or claims to do in the future) zombies well!!!!

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10/19/2007 11:35 AM  
Zombies should be scary. Right now they aren't in D&D. Sounds like they're trying to correct that. Good job.

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10/19/2007 11:42 AM  
Posted By nyjastul69 on 10/19/2007 10:47 AM
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 10:43 AM
It's my thing.


Yikes, I'm glad my thing doesn't look like that. :/

I'm surprised of that because it's a known side effect of having Neil Young (ugh!) lyrics in your sig instead of Rush.

WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM

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10/19/2007 12:09 PM  
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 11:42 AM
Posted By nyjastul69 on 10/19/2007 10:47 AM
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 10:43 AM
It's my thing.


Yikes, I'm glad my thing doesn't look like that. :/

I'm surprised of that because it's a known side effect of having Neil Young (ugh!) lyrics in your sig instead of Rush.


I have no idea what you're talking about.  I think you're confused. 


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10/20/2007 3:14 PM  
i like the new zombies...

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10/20/2007 10:06 PM  
Posted By Shottglazz on 10/19/2007 11:24 AM
Great googily-moogily YES!! Finally, a fantasy game that does (or claims to do in the future) zombies well!!!!


*cough* All Flesh must be Eaten *cough*

Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror.

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Quinte West, Ontario, Canada

10/22/2007 6:52 AM  
Posted By Cthulhufnord on 10/20/2007 10:06 PM
Posted By Shottglazz on 10/19/2007 11:24 AM
Great googily-moogily YES!! Finally, a fantasy game that does (or claims to do in the future) zombies well!!!!


*cough* All Flesh must be Eaten *cough*


Yeah, but Dungeons & Zombies kinda sucked...otherwise, I agree with ye Cthulufnord...

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10/25/2007 6:18 AM  
Wow... Those are some lame gimmicky concepts. The worst is undoubtedly the one that hurls lobs of its own flesh. It's really sad that they are cheapening an upcoming core rulebook with trash like this.

Zombies and skeletons retain their concepts best when they are just zombies and skeletons. Zombies throwing bits of flesh and skeletons shooting shards of bone have a silly video game feel to them. Whoever thought that piling on half-baked ideas made anything cool?! I'm disgusted.

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10/25/2007 7:35 AM  
TY alamanther, I feel exactly the same way. I'm getting the feeling that the D&D line is heading to the kiddie pool of yu-gi-oh and pokeman. Everything is "cool" and "wicked" - whatever.


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10/25/2007 8:44 AM  
i resent your name calling Greyhaze. kidding of course.

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10/25/2007 12:32 PM  
heheh.


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10/25/2007 1:37 PM  
Posted By Alamanther's comeback on 10/25/2007 6:18 AM
Wow... Those are some lame gimmicky concepts. The worst is undoubtedly the one that hurls lobs of its own flesh. It's really sad that they are cheapening an upcoming core rulebook with trash like this.

Zombies and skeletons retain their concepts best when they are just zombies and skeletons. Zombies throwing bits of flesh and skeletons shooting shards of bone have a silly video game feel to them. Whoever thought that piling on half-baked ideas made anything cool?! I'm disgusted.
Sorry, I have to disagree.  Tell me how your characters will react when a rotting, shambling carcass plunges its clawed, atrophied hand into its own flesh, rips outs a seething mass of pus-ridden bile and heaves it at the players.  That doesn't sounds gimmicky at all- it sounds disturbing and terrifying.

The chillborn are a non-epic, mindless version of the winterwight, which first appeared in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors.  A walking blight upon creation is not gimmicky- it's fairly classic.  Ya know- the creature that kills all life around it as it shambles onwards.

And the gravehounds already exist in 3e.  Nothing gimmicky about them.

There's certainly things that have been inspired by WOW and its ilk, but c'mon, nothing abotu these zombies scream YU-Gi-OH or what have you.


References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231
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10/26/2007 3:41 AM  
I seem to remember in some old D&D supplement a skeleton that could fire its finger bones as missile weapons.

WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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10/26/2007 10:55 AM  
Well, no zombie in this set. Guess we'll have to wait.


Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
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Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves.

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Montreal

10/30/2007 10:49 AM  
Posted By Alamanther's comeback on 10/25/2007 6:18 AM
Wow... Those are some lame gimmicky concepts. The worst is undoubtedly the one that hurls lobs of its own flesh. It's really sad that they are cheapening an upcoming core rulebook with trash like this.

Zombies and skeletons retain their concepts best when they are just zombies and skeletons. Zombies throwing bits of flesh and skeletons shooting shards of bone have a silly video game feel to them. Whoever thought that piling on half-baked ideas made anything cool?! I'm disgusted.

Did i miss something? Where does it say that zombies will throw bits of flesh and skeletons, shards of bone?

This is a concept that i would not like at all...

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10/30/2007 12:15 PM  
In part 2 it talks of variety of zombie.


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10/30/2007 3:52 PM  
Posted By greyhaze on 10/26/2007 10:55 AM
Well, no zombie in this set. Guess we'll have to wait.
He he, if you closely look at the side of the Dungeons of Dread booster, the upper mini really looks like a zombi...


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10/31/2007 6:59 AM  
Well, undead are a staple. It'd be odd to have a set without a skeleton or zombie in it.


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Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves.
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10/31/2007 2:05 PM  
Posted By greyhaze on 10/31/2007 6:59 AM
Well, undead are a staple. It'd be odd to have a set without a skeleton or zombie in it.


Indeed. I'm hoping Zombies are done soon again. I'd like one or two more sculpts for humans, and an elf zombie...

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11/01/2007 12:15 PM  
every time I read design and developments "ideas" about how to "improve" the game, I get the same vision in my head over and over... The scene from the Simpsons when a board of clueless business people are trying to create a new character for the Itchy and Scratchy show who is "edgy" and "extreme".  Yes, that's right. D&D 4E is Poochie. What's funny is how many people are fooled by this non-sense

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11/02/2007 8:54 AM  
Posted By Beware of Kobold on 11/01/2007 12:15 PM
 Yes, that's right. D&D 4E is Poochie. What's funny is how many people are fooled by this non-sense

One thing is for certain. By this time next year, we'll know if 4E is indeed Poochie.

WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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11/02/2007 11:05 AM  
Feels like poochie to me.


Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves.
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11/07/2007 3:41 AM  
Howlingly unfunny debut.

Seriously though, the more I read the more my slim optimism is eroded. D&D is beign turned into something I don't like very much.

WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM

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11/09/2007 10:09 AM  
Ever play Zombies? I'm being reminded of that by this essay on zombies in DnD.. heh

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¯\(°_o)/¯

11/18/2007 7:44 PM  
sorry for being ignorant. but whats poochie?

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11/19/2007 5:32 AM  
A short lived character from the Simpsons.


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11/19/2007 6:05 AM  
Poochie






WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!

Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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11/19/2007 7:21 AM  
Poochie is what happens when a bunch of executives get together and cram something "kool" down people's throats, and then ppl don't like it and the execs can't figure out why.


Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves.

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11/20/2007 1:51 PM  
Posted By Puggins on 10/25/2007 1:37 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree.  Tell me how your characters will react when a rotting, shambling carcass plunges its clawed, atrophied hand into its own flesh, rips outs a seething mass of pus-ridden bile and heaves it at the players.

I think my players would try not to laugh out of respect for the effort i try putting into my game, but will not be able to reach that point and as a consequence will let a few jokes fly about letting the zombie tear itself apart or something to that effect.

It is quite likely that i will not include any flesh-throwing zombies in my game, although i'll wait and see how they present it in the book (i can't even log on to the WotC web site anymore). This is one element that i truly do not like.

Sky

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11/24/2007 11:55 AM  
Posted By Ghendar on 10/26/2007 3:41 AM
I seem to remember in some old D&D supplement a skeleton that could fire its finger bones as missile weapons.


There were a couple of these I think.  One of them was associated with Bane I think.

Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror.

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SLC, UT

11/25/2007 11:19 AM  
Posted By Ghendar on 10/19/2007 9:29 AM
At appropriate levels, a fight against zombies should look more like a horror movie scene.

So, does a 12-gauge deal 2d6 damage? What about a .45? And when do I get to use a chainsaw? Cinematic moments in gaming can be a good thing. Modeling game design off of B-horror films is a bad thing

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11/25/2007 11:47 AM  
Posted By Alamanther's comeback on 10/25/2007 6:18 AM
Zombies throwing bits of flesh and skeletons shooting shards of bone have a silly video game feel to them.
Next up sentient monkeys who create and throw their own fireball material components (is it still guano?). Ook, ook, FIREBALL!

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11/27/2007 1:16 PM  
If you've got any poo, fling it now.

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11/27/2007 6:51 PM  
Zombies critical vulnerable! O.O! it´s the apocalypse!

maybe they try to get the movie zombies that are destroyed by hitting in the head

i always think that zombies should have lots of Hit points, but very low AC, maybe 2 o 3 HD.

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Forums > Role Playing Games (RPG's) > Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition > Design & Development - Zombies, get yer zombies here



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