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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10849 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 10/30/2007 10:02 AM |
| http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071029
The family of gods for 4th Edition is a mix of old and new. You'll see familiar faces like Corellon, Moradin, and Pelor, and some new faces as well, like Zehir, Torog, and Bane.
Yes, Bane.
Before I explain what the Forgotten Realms' god of tyranny and war is doing rubbing shoulders with Pelor, let me say a bit about our thinking when we created a pantheon in the first place.
There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind.
When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods.
When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor.
We ended up creating a new pantheon. At first, we used some of the gods from 3rd Edition as placeholder names -- we thought we'd come up with new names for [Pelor] the sun god and [Moradin] the god of the forge. Ultimately we decided that using some familiar faces was preferable to giving our players a whole new set of names to learn. Besides, if a god looks like an elf and took out the orc-god's eye like a certain well-known elf god, why not call him Corellon?
Corellon: The elf god is a good example of a god who kept his well-earned place in the D&D pantheon. But "the elf god" shouldn't be taken to literally. Sure, he's often depicted as an elf or an eladrin, and many eladrin in particular revere him. But he's equally popular among human wizards, and even dwarves who practice the finer arts are prone to offering him prayers. One of our goals with the new pantheon was to loosen the tight associations between gods and races that has in the past led to the creation of whole pantheons full of elf, dwarf, orc, and goblin deities. Corellon is still associated with elfy things like arcane magic and the Feywild, and he still hates Lolth and the drow. But his appeal is a little broader now.
Bahamut: Here's another example of a familiar, draconic face showing up in a somewhat new light. Maybe it was the Platinum Knight prestige class in Draconomicon that did it, but something convinced me a long time ago that Bahamut was a much cooler god of paladins than Heironeous ever was. Like Corellon, Bahamut's not just for dragons any more. He's the god of justice, protection, and honor, and many paladins of all races worship him. Many metallic dragons revere him as well, thinking of him as the first of their kind. Some legends about Bahamut describe him as literally a shining platinum dragon, while others describe him as a more anthropomorphic deity, who's called the Platinum Dragon as a title of respect. Exhorting his followers to protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order, Bahamut stands as the exemplar of the paladin's ideal.
Bane: Here's another god whose placeholder name just stuck, despite some reservations. We wanted an evil war god in the pantheon, and without Heironeous, Hextor didn't make a lot of sense. We wanted the kind of heavily militaristic god whose temples you might find among non-evil societies who have spent long years at war, as well as among hobgoblins. We wanted a god who embodied just the sort of tyrannical dictatorship that Bane stands for in the Forgotten Realms. We started calling him Bane as a placeholder. He went through a number of different, unsatisfying names. Finally, someone said we should just call him Bane. So Bane he remained.
Like chocolate and peanut butter, we think Bane and Bahamut are two great tastes that taste great together. Does that mean you have to use them in your 4th Edition game? Of course not. But we think that, when you see these gods in action in our core books and adventures, you'll agree that they belong in their new places of honor in the pantheon of the D&D game.
About the Author
James Wyatt is the Lead Story Designer for D&D and one of the lead designers of D&D 4th Edition. In over seven years at Wizards of the Coast, he has authored or co-authored award-winning adventures and settings including the Eberron Campaign Setting, City of the Spider Queen, and Oriental Adventures. His more recent works include Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, and The Forge of War. His second Eberron novel, Storm Dragon, is in stores now.
| | Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10849 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 10/30/2007 10:06 AM |
| This totally smacks (to me anyway) of unnecessary change.
I can understand them wanting to move away from Greyhawk only gods as the "core" (whatever core means these days) but why mix and match between settings? For me, Bane will always be exclusively a FR god.
Thoughts? | | Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Puggins Sergeant
 618 Posts




 | | 10/30/2007 11:06 AM |
| | Every D&D pantheon other than Greyhawk is a mish-mash of semi-original gods and renamed/re-imagined historical gods. The FR pantheon mixes Greek and Norse gods with some original ones. Dragonlance borrows Bahamut and Tiamat. This is business as usual. In some ways, I like that they are straying away from using the Greyhawk gods- using them and not the rest of the setting always seemed a bit off. | | References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4601 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 10/30/2007 1:53 PM |
| I fail to see how Bane is any more specific of an evil deity than Nerull.
I suppose if you're changing the rules for the sake of changing the rules, you may as well change the fluff for the sake of changing the fluff  | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5481 Posts




 | | 10/30/2007 1:59 PM |
| | My biggest beef with 4e is the changing the fluff for the sake of changing it. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Fomorian in Feywild. | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4601 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 10/30/2007 2:21 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 10/30/2007 1:59 PM My biggest beef with 4e is the changing the fluff for the sake of changing it. If you're going to completely overhaul the system, you have to overhaul the fluff. Otherwise, you won't be able to sell new splatbooks to describe temples of Bane or cultists of Trogdor.
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5481 Posts




 | | Wraithborne Commander
 3427 Posts



 West Virginia
 | | 10/31/2007 7:07 AM |
| The Greyhawk pantheon being in the PHB has had me wanting to DM some Greyhawk for a while now, but I already had stuff planned for a long time. It's very likely my next campaign will be set there which never would have happened without the pantheon used in the PHB.
This change doesn't rankle me quite as much as some of the others, but still seems to be change for no reason but to change stuff.
The part about dwarves worshipping Corellon bothers me the most.
| | Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4601 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 10/31/2007 9:55 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 10/31/2007 7:07 AM The part about dwarves worshipping Corellon bothers me the most.
Next there will be gnomes worshipping Kurtulmak. Oh, wait, there probably are no gnomes...
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 6247 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 10/31/2007 2:01 PM |
| Yeah, this is really odd. If you want to make FR core compatible, make it the core world. Seems to be the way they are rolling already.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10849 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/01/2007 6:48 AM |
| Does anyone even use the "core" gods they present in the PH? I was wondering about this the other day.
For me, I'm either going to use whatever gods come with whatever world I'm using or I'm going to make my own pantheon for my own homebrew world.
Is the whole idea of putting gods in the PH to give newbies some ideas of what god to use when thery are rolling up a cleric? That's about the only use I can envision. Either that or to give inexperienced DMs a pantheon they can start with.
| | Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5481 Posts




 | | 11/01/2007 8:36 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/01/2007 6:48 AM Is the whole idea of putting gods in the PH to give newbies some ideas of what god to use when thery are rolling up a cleric? That's about the only use I can envision. Either that or to give inexperienced DMs a pantheon they can start with.
I'd say both of these are accurate. It's good to have some kind of launch point for homebrew, and it also lets the new players know whom they can trust and whom they should battle in game. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Fomorian in Feywild. | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 6247 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 11/01/2007 10:09 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/01/2007 6:48 AM Does anyone even use the "core" gods they present in the PH? I was wondering about this the other day.
For me, I'm either going to use whatever gods come with whatever world I'm using or I'm going to make my own pantheon for my own homebrew world.
Is the whole idea of putting gods in the PH to give newbies some ideas of what god to use when thery are rolling up a cleric? That's about the only use I can envision. Either that or to give inexperienced DMs a pantheon they can start with.
Generally, Yeah, I'll use whatever world I'm in/creating.
But for lesser DM's who aren't quite as methodical, they may just want to run a few generic adventures. of course, at that point, as a player, I just use whatever deity I want if they don't specify a limit. My friend and I once played clerical twin brothers of different pantheons (one Eberron, one FR)
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/01/2007 11:38 AM |
| Ghendar: i understand the need for gods in the PH for use in creating commercial adventures. If in commercial adventures you additionally need to define a pantheon and/or several gods and cleric domains and so on, you're increasing your workload significantly. So providing gods in the PH makes sense IMO.
This being said, i also find the idea of mixing gods from different sources a bit odd. They've essentially decided to use the "coolest" or more notorious gods for each sphere (war, sun, death, ...) as far as i understand it. This is kinda lame IMO.
Sky | | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10849 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/02/2007 4:20 AM |
| | I also find it odd that Kobolds could potentially worship Moradin or Corellon. Or that Elves could worship the kobold god. Seems odd to me. | | Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5481 Posts




 | | 11/02/2007 6:12 AM |
| | I think they're gonna drop the racial aspect of the gods. For instance, kurtlemak wouldn't be "the kobold god", he'll be the god of "trickery and traps". | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Fomorian in Feywild. | |
| minatoman38 Underboss
 1341 Posts



 Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
 | | 11/02/2007 6:37 AM |
| Okay. I barely got half way through this horrible thing before I had to stop. What the...!!!!! We didn't want a world filled orc gods of this and elf gods of the same thing. Well that is what gods and races are all about. Look at the world we lot come from. Oden and Zeus, Thor and whoever... It always made perfect sense that every race and culture in D&D worshipped their own set of god. Now they all worship at the Gap. Or the united gods of benetton. You know I kinda of liked the whole Dragonstar, there are only 12 divine beings being interpreted by each race differently but where that seemed kind of deep... Now this feels convenient and disney-like at best. Blahhhh....maybe that has already been stated.
I mean the blahhh....ralph... | | Robert Rosehart Champion of the pixie
| |
| nyjastul69 Commander
 2710 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 11/02/2007 7:30 AM |
| | The Kingdoms of Kalamar CS has one pantheon that is interpreted differently by different cultures, races, etc. I like it a lot. I wouldn't have a problem this set up for D&D. | | You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10849 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/02/2007 7:42 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 11/02/2007 7:30 AM The Kingdoms of Kalamar CS has one pantheon that is interpreted differently by different cultures, races, etc. I like it a lot. I wouldn't have a problem this set up for D&D. Except when you have two groups that are racial enemies of each other. Take elves and orcs. Would any elf anywhere worship Gruumsh? Oh wait, sure they would because WotC is changing everything apparently.
| | Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5481 Posts




 | | 11/02/2007 11:04 AM |
| | The elves probably wouldn't worship Gruumsh, because Gruumsh will be the god of slaughter (for example), and elves don't worship that - they may know of Gruumsh and his followers would probably be enemies with the elves, therefore it still pretty much works. It's not that every race will worship every god, just those that cross in to their belief system. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Fomorian in Feywild. | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 6247 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 11/02/2007 11:12 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/02/2007 7:42 AM Posted By nyjastul69 on 11/02/2007 7:30 AM The Kingdoms of Kalamar CS has one pantheon that is interpreted differently by different cultures, races, etc. I like it a lot. I wouldn't have a problem this set up for D&D. Except when you have two groups that are racial enemies of each other. Take elves and orcs. Would any elf anywhere worship Gruumsh? Oh wait, sure they would because WotC is changing everything apparently.
No, but the may worship a deity of the hunt. It's that no deity has specific ties to any race, and each race interprets them differently. Like odin-zeus.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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