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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10885 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/21/2007 8:43 AM |
| http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071119
A proper command of terrain wins battles -- generals from Sun Tzu to Norman Schrwarzkopf have known this to be true. There's a similar relationship between encounter design and terrain -- a canny use of terrain can transform good encounters into great ones. One of the goals of the 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide is to help the Dungeon Master perform just such transformations, which includes providing a bunch of evocative terrain types and advice on their placement and use. Since the book doesn't come out for a while, let's illuminate some of the basics of terrain in 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons.
While it might seem elementary, let's first examine what we mean by terrain. Terrain is not just what litters the field in an encounter; terrain also forms the dimensions and tactile experience of the encounter itself. Knowing that, there are some things about 4th Edition D&D design that you should keep in mind when building encounters.
First and foremost, not only does the standard 4th Edition encounter tend to have more combatants than in 3rd Edition, both PCs and monsters are more maneuverable as well. This means that the 10-foot by 10-foot rooms of yore have gone the way of the dinosaur (actually that happened in 3E, but that's not relevant to this discussion). Likewise have the 20 by 20 room and even the 30 by 30 room as the sole encounter areas. In fact, the minimum amount of space you typically want to have for a standard encounter is one of those large 10-square by 8-square dungeon tiles! That's 50-feet by 40-feet for all you still counting in feet. Just hold on before you start chucking all those 2-by-2 square dungeon tiles in the garbage -- you'll still need them!
Any DM worth her salt knows that dynamic and interactive stories are more satisfying than railroading narratives. The same is true for battle areas. Larger spaces with interesting terrain that both the PCs and their enemies can take advantage of -- or be foiled by -- is infinitely more fun than a small and relatively empty room that constrains combatant choice to a small set of dreary moves.
But here's the rub -- large areas of interconnecting chambers, complete with alcoves, galleries, and antechambers, are far more exciting than just plopping down a 10 by 8 tile and sprinkling it with rubble. Creating a network of interconnected areas creates numerous avenues of conflict and creates the possibilities for a series of evolving fronts that metamorphoses same-old encounters into tactical puzzles that'll sing like legend to a gaming group. See, you're going to need all those smaller pieces!
Then, once you have the main layout done, populate it with furniture, shrines, rubble, pillars, or maybe even the occasional lightning column or patch of doomspore where needed (and where appropriate), and you've got yourself a pretty vibrant encounter area for your combatants to interact with.
Oh, here's a bit of sound advice that'll keep you out of trouble. Be careful with pits and other steep inclines, and leave 100-foot (or endless) chasms for paragon- or epic-level play. Some of that increased maneuverability of the combatants in 4th Edition comes from attacks that can move foes against their will -- which is all fun and games until someone loses a character!
That aside, D&D is more than just a tactical skirmish game; it's also a game of storytelling and heroic adventure. When designing adventures, you're doing more than just placing interesting terrain pieces for the battle that (let's admit it) will most likely occur; you are also setting the stage of your story. A canny eye toward terrain set up can also help you communicate story elements to your players quickly and without the need to say a single word. Just put down some sarcophagi, and the players will know it's a crypt. Put down an altar, and you've just communicated that it's a temple. Put down piles and piles of bones in front of a yawning cavern, and the players will know their characters are likely in a world of trouble … or you've seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail one too many times.
What the Heck is Doomspore? Isn't it annoying when those know-it-all designers and developers drop an Easter egg in a preview article and don't back it up with any description? Yeah, I hate that too -- unless I am the one doing it. That said, I empathize a little, so here's the doomspore (or at least a recent version of it).
Doomspore (Any) Usually found in large, natural caverns, this fungus takes the form of a clump of toadstools, some of which reach a height of about 3 feet tall. A square of doomspore is difficult terrain and provides cover to anyone standing within.
If any creature enters a doomspore's square (or uses a standard action to kick or poke at it, if within reach), a doomspore releases a cloud of spores that provides concealment to all creatures within its own and adjacent squares. Furthermore, a bloodied creature in the area of a cloud when created, who moves into the cloud, or begins its turn in the cloud, is subject to a Fortitude attack (+10) that deals 1d10 points of poison damage on a hit. In addition, a target hit by a doomspore is weakened and takes ongoing poison 5 (save ends both conditions; creatures with immunity to or resist poison 5 are immune to the weakened condition also).
This cloud (and its effects on a bloodied character) persists for the remainder of the encounter (or for 5 minutes). Once the cloud settles, the doomspore can't produce another for 24 hours.
Placement Advice: More than one doomspore in a room may give an advantage to creatures immune or resistant to poison. Intelligent undead tend to cultivate doomspore, and this debilitating fungus can often be found in caverns infested with zombies. It absolutely inundates areas of the Shadowfell as its growth thrives in the presence of undead flesh that has been shed from its host.
As for the lightning column -- well, you'll just have to wait for that one. I would say I am sorry … but you know I'm not.
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| | No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/21/2007 8:51 AM |
| This is interesting if not very revealing.
On a side nte, 3E had the problem that melee battle usually ended up with opponents bunched up at some area on the map, usually a choke point. And then the battle remained essentially static (with exceptions, of course) since moving away would provoke AoOs or in the alternative make a creature loose a turn in withdrawal (a turn being important in battles that often last only 5-6 turns). I truly hope that this will be addressed in 4E. If it is in that creatures will be allowed and encouraged to move about to take advantage of the terrain, then terrain will all of a sudden become very important.
Sky | | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10885 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/21/2007 9:07 AM |
| I'm puzzled and a bit concerned about this bit.
Oh, here's a bit of sound advice that'll keep you out of trouble. Be careful with pits and other steep inclines, and leave 100-foot (or endless) chasms for paragon- or epic-level play. Some of that increased maneuverability of the combatants in 4th Edition comes from attacks that can move foes against their will -- which is all fun and games until someone loses a character!
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it but it seems to suggest that I'd be a bad DM if I put non epic characters in a situation where they might get dumped into the chasm. Am I being unfair to my PCs if I do this? Is this just as bad as a save or die effect in their eyes?
| | No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 11/21/2007 9:15 AM |
| | If they were foolish enough to fall in, it's their fault, not yours. I never intentionally kill a PC unless they do something really stupid. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10885 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/21/2007 11:18 AM |
| | I agree, but the article seems to suggest that unless they are epic levels, you shouldn't put them in that position to begin with. | | No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 3440 Posts



 West Virginia
 | | 11/21/2007 12:51 PM |
| | The article suggests that but I think it's silly. Kind of like saying it's bad DMing because a group of 1st level characters decide to go to the Troll Fell Swamp and then they get killed by Trolls. If you get close to a cliff and don't think your enemy will try and knock you off you deserve to roll up a new PC when he does. | | Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 6558 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 11/21/2007 2:13 PM |
| Hmm, interesting, if contentious, read...
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/22/2007 10:49 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/21/2007 9:07 AM I'm puzzled and a bit concerned about this bit.
Oh, here's a bit of sound advice that'll keep you out of trouble. Be careful with pits and other steep inclines, and leave 100-foot (or endless) chasms for paragon- or epic-level play. Some of that increased maneuverability of the combatants in 4th Edition comes from attacks that can move foes against their will -- which is all fun and games until someone loses a character!
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it but it seems to suggest that I'd be a bad DM if I put non epic characters in a situation where they might get dumped into the chasm. Am I being unfair to my PCs if I do this? Is this just as bad as a save or die effect in their eyes?
They're only saying that pushing other creatures in holes will be easier. Consequently, you can put bottomless pits in your dungeons if you want to, but it's likely that they'll be more deadly than they were before. Both for PCs and NPCs, but the fate of most NPCs being to be killed anyway, they only talk about the consequences for the PCs.
Situations that can kill easily and frequently PCs without a corresponding counter by PCs are usually not designed into adventures. Thus, there are usually no disintegrate traps or the like in most low-level commercial 3E dungeons. The CR of such a trap would be too high.
Also, in 3E, bull-rushing creatures into holes is not easy because movement is limited due to AoOs and bull rushing has other inherent limitations. I don't know how it goes at your table, but i don't think i have a PC that managed to bull rush an opponent into a pit or hole a single time in 3 years of playing; and monsters probably bull-rushed PCs 2 or 3 times in that same period. So to say that it is rare is quite an undertatement. (I don't hang out in min/maxing forums mind you, perhaps there is a build for an effective bull-rusher.)
So in 4E, with the "challenge rating" (inasmuch as CR applies to 4E) of pits increasing due to the ability to push creatures in them becoming more frequent and/or easier to use, they are essentially saying that bottomless pits will be "of a higher CR", making this too high CR for low-level campagins.
I don't see how this statement is either puzzling or of concern nor how this philosophy differs from the present 3E one. It sounds like simple common sense to me.
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/22/2007 11:00 AM |
| Posted By Kaya Kenobi on 11/21/2007 9:15 AM If they were foolish enough to fall in, it's their fault, not yours. I never intentionally kill a PC unless they do something really stupid. My, what a declaration. I'm not even sure how this should be interpreted since "stupid" is quite an arbitrary concept. What is stupid for one person might not be for the next. But i digress.
Back to the topic at hand, if i put a CR-10 monster in a level 1 adventure where the PCs cannot flee the monster, i call that intentionally killing a PC.
Likewise, if a battle occurs in a room with a bottomless pit in it and the room is full of creatures that can easily push low-level PCs in the pit where a fall means death, then that is also a situation where killing the PCs can occur IF IT IS EASIER TO PUSH PCs in the pit than it was in 3E. And that last part is exactly what they're saying in their article as i understand it.
Since designing an adventure according to WotC personnel means preparing encounters with terrain where battle will occur, this means that putting bottomless pits in those encounters might result in PCs dying. Let's be frank: this is quite different from 3E where a vast majority of opponents have much better choices than bull-rushing the PCs to try to push them into a pit.
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/22/2007 11:28 AM |
| As a side note, one of my gripes with the recent encounter design in 3E that will apparently be transferred to 4E is precisely that encounters are to take place at very specific areas. I think this is railroading in its purest form. I mean, as a PC that encounter format means that you are being led one step, er... encounter at a time towards the end of the adventure. Did you manage to defeat the adventure? Yes? Then you did EXACTLY what you were supposed to do: you followed the path that was pre-designed for you. With this encounter format, you can't even think of battling the bad guy outside of his castle instead of in his throne room: the encounter is prepared for the throne room, period. If you come in at any time of day or night, he'll be in the throne room waiting.
I like to design my adventures in a mush more open-ended format. I'll prepare some specific encounter areas, but these will mostly be when the PCs have declared that they will be going there. Generally, I prepare for example a castle, and i have no idea where battle will occur, or if it will occur at all for that matter. There is no pre-set encounter area.
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 10885 Posts



 In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
 | | 11/23/2007 7:32 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 11/22/2007 10:49 AM I don't see how this statement is either puzzling or of concern nor how this philosophy differs from the present 3E one. It sounds like simple common sense to me.
Obviously, we are interpreting the article two different ways.
| | No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Lord_rock Underboss
 1658 Posts



 Portland OR
 | | 12/18/2007 12:38 PM |
| anyone else notice the "poison 5" part... If they decided to round everything off at 5 me thinks I'll be angry... very angry...
longsword: 5 dmg Greatsword: 10 dmg dagger: uhh... 5 dmg???
see "angry" above... | | Rock Bottom Pricing: Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5583 Posts




 | | 12/18/2007 12:59 PM |
| Dagger would be -5 dmg, cause a short sword would be 0 dmg, duh.
Actually, for simplicity sakes, they now have; Sword 5 dmg, Bigger Sword 10 dmg. That is all. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| Lord_rock Underboss
 1658 Posts



 Portland OR
 | | 12/18/2007 3:35 PM |
| maybe instead of "see angry above" I should have said... that makes me die a little more inside...
But if that's the way 4.0 is going maybe DDM is moving back to Chainmail stats!!! one can only hope right? No? Why not? don't you have a ton of painted led like mini's lying around your house with stat cards that no longer work for the minis game... how about ones that were never updated for DDM 1.0? That's right, I knew you did...
...
If they are going for simple why have different dmg for weapons at all... | | Rock Bottom Pricing: Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 6558 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 12/19/2007 7:40 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 12/18/2007 3:35 PM maybe instead of "see angry above" I should have said... that makes me die a little more inside...
But if that's the way 4.0 is going maybe DDM is moving back to Chainmail stats!!! one can only hope right? No? Why not? don't you have a ton of painted led like mini's lying around your house with stat cards that no longer work for the minis game... how about ones that were never updated for DDM 1.0? That's right, I knew you did...
...
If they are going for simple why have different dmg for weapons at all...
die a little more inside, so you "die" a little less at the game table. (yes, it's a bad pun.)
I don't think they would do that, it's not a great idea for a complex ruleset. Simplified ruleset (like DDM) sure, but not a complicated one.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5583 Posts




 | | 12/19/2007 11:19 AM |
| | Nah, they won't do that. I was just kiddin around. I'm sure the environment effects might have just happened to be 5 damage, or perhaps only environment effects are simplified. I wouldn't worry just yet. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4677 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 12/19/2007 12:47 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 11/22/2007 10:49 AM I don't know how it goes at your table, but i don't think i have a PC that managed to bull rush an opponent into a pit or hole a single time in 3 years of playing
My non-min-maxed (shocking, isn't it?) dwarf fighter (Thokk) uses Bull Rush regularly to great advantage. Slamming monsters into tables, walls, and dropping them off cliffs or into pits has caused no end of frustration for our DM.
There are published 3.0/3.5 adventures where characters less than level 10 are subjected to situations including effectively bottomless pits and creatures which can take advantage of that using Bull Rush (or just cutting a rope bridge)(Forge of Fury, Red Hand of Doom just to name 2).
Perhaps I've been a DM too long, but the article doesn't offer anything that I wasn't already aware of when designing encounters. The 10x10 unadorned room went the way of the dodo a long time ago (except in WotC published adventures). | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
|  Knight of Wuzz Wuzzard
-827 Posts




 | | 01/08/2008 4:26 PM |
| We always seem to have battles in the hallways between rooms. My guess is that what they are explaining is their rationale behind how they are going to be laying out adventures, not necessarily how you should do it. My fear is that they will consider these large zones as 'encounter areas' and this large space is what will determine per-encounter abilities. I like being able to say to the DM, "I can use my power again because its a new encounter. That last fight was in the other room."
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