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vanrulzz Commander
 2563 Posts



 ¯\(°_o)/¯
 | | 11/26/2007 9:04 PM |
| | One of the most useful and popular additions to Dungeons & Dragons that appeared in 3rd Edition was the concept of feats: special bonuses, benefits, or actions that characters could acquire outside their normal class features. Throughout the lifespan of the edition (and even between the covers of the Player’s Handbook), the potency, utility, effect, and coolness of feats have varied widely. Some feats offer utilitarian but unexciting benefits, while others grant characters entire new options in combat. It’s hard to argue with the utility of Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, or even (for 1st-level wizards and sorcerers) Toughness, but that same feat slot could purchase Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Spring Attack, or Empower Spell. When we started talking about feats for 4th Edition, we already knew that we wanted the bulk of a character’s powers—the exciting actions he performs in combat—to come from his class. Even character classes that hadn’t traditionally offered class-based power options (that is, non-spellcasters) would now acquire these special attacks, defenses, maneuvers, and so on directly from their class’s list of such abilities. Once that decision was made, a lot of the most exciting feats suddenly looked more like class-based powers. Spring Attack, for example, now looked an awful lot like a power for the rogue or melee-based ranger, rather than a feat that just anybody could pick up. Manyshot, Whirlwind Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shot on the Run—these were specialized powers appropriate for particular character archetypes. So what design space did that leave for feats? After some discussion, we came to see feats as the “fine-tuning” that your character performed after defining his role (via your choice of class) and his build (via your power selections). Feats would let characters further specialize in their roles and builds, as well as to differentiate themselves from other characters with similar power selections. They would accomplish these goals with simple, basic functionality, rather than complicated conditional benefits or entirely new powers that you’d have to track alongside those of your class. Here are four examples of feats taken from the latest draft of the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook. The first two demonstrate the minor evolution of familiar favorites from 3rd Edition, while the other two show off some new tricks. As always, nothing’s final until you read it in the printed book, so take these with a grain of salt. Toughness Tier: Heroic Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level. Alertness Tier: Heroic Benefit: You don’t grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks. First Reaction Tier: Paragon Benefit: If you are surprised, you may spend an action point to act during the surprise round. Golden Wyvern Adept Tier: Paragon Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
Action Poins standard? Yes! I like the new feats system too. Anyone have a clue what combat advantage is? Maybe something to do with init? | | | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5104 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 11/26/2007 9:47 PM |
| Combat advantage is likely a static modifier bonus gained in the surprise round (rather than losing Dex while surprised in the current system).
The only thing that interests me from this article is the reference to rangers. Sounds like rangers are not one of the classes getting the axe from the first PHB. | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 12482 Posts



 The G Spot
 | | 11/27/2007 3:40 AM |
| One of the most useful and popular additions to Dungeons & Dragons that appeared in 3rd Edition was the concept of feats: special bonuses, benefits, or actions that characters could acquire outside their normal class features.
Throughout the lifespan of the edition (and even between the covers of the Player’s Handbook), the potency, utility, effect, and coolness of feats have varied widely.
Some feats offer utilitarian but unexciting benefits, while others grant characters entire new options in combat. It’s hard to argue with the utility of Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, or even (for 1st-level wizards and sorcerers) Toughness, but that same feat slot could purchase Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Spring Attack, or Empower Spell.
When we started talking about feats for 4th Edition, we already knew that we wanted the bulk of a character’s powers—the exciting actions he performs in combat—to come from his class. Even character classes that hadn’t traditionally offered class-based power options (that is, non-spellcasters) would now acquire these special attacks, defenses, maneuvers, and so on directly from their class’s list of such abilities.
Once that decision was made, a lot of the most exciting feats suddenly looked more like class-based powers. Spring Attack, for example, now looked an awful lot like a power for the rogue or melee-based ranger, rather than a feat that just anybody could pick up. Manyshot, Whirlwind Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shot on the Run—these were specialized powers appropriate for particular character archetypes.
So what design space did that leave for feats? After some discussion, we came to see feats as the “fine-tuning” that your character performed after defining his role (via your choice of class) and his build (via your power selections). Feats would let characters further specialize in their roles and builds, as well as to differentiate themselves from other characters with similar power selections. They would accomplish these goals with simple, basic functionality, rather than complicated conditional benefits or entirely new powers that you’d have to track alongside those of your class.
Here are four examples of feats taken from the latest draft of the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook. The first two demonstrate the minor evolution of familiar favorites from 3rd Edition, while the other two show off some new tricks. As always, nothing’s final until you read it in the printed book, so take these with a grain of salt.
Toughness Tier: Heroic Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.
Alertness Tier: Heroic Benefit: You don’t grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception checks.
First Reaction Tier: Paragon Benefit: If you are surprised, you may spend an action point to act during the surprise round.
Golden Wyvern Adept Tier: Paragon Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier. | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 4531 Posts



 The Red Light District
 | | 11/27/2007 7:13 AM |
| Actions points are core? Bleh. One more on the list of things not to like.
I would argue very hard on the utility of the toughness feat in 3.x It's pretty much a waste. The newer toughness is the second thing I've seen that I do like so far.
Interesting that all of the feats essentially have a level requirement. | | Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card -Jimgang
May I mambo dogface in the banana patch? -Steve Martin | |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 11/27/2007 8:15 AM |
| | action points? That should have stayed in the Unearthed Arcana. Or Star Wars, or whatever else it was in... | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|  Fun Guy from Yuggoth Cthulhufnord Warlord
 11004 Posts



 Umass Amherst Baby!
 | | 11/27/2007 9:21 AM |
| | Action points are the one thing I don't mind actually. Most of the pulp games I play and run tend to use a similar mechanic. Of course that's the only thing I don't mind about the new edition. | | Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
| berus316 Sergeant
 656 Posts



 Markham, Ontario Canada
 | | 11/27/2007 10:59 AM |
| I'm not sure how I feel about this....
I like the toughness and alertness feat (I like the switch to Perception, rather than Listen, Spot etc...)
Not sure how I feel about action points (probably because I don't know what they are, or how they are used)
Hate the Golden Wyvern Whatever... now fireballs can miss certain people within the blast radius... does that make any sense?
Pretty sure I hate the Hero, Paragon stuff... nothing wrong with Level 3 or Level 7 if you ask me. Maybe they got something going on here that will be very cool... or maybe some yack at WotC has fallen in love with the word Paragon and needed to find as many uses for it as possible.
Who knows... Overall preview value -1 to my happy factor | | Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304 H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
| Ssylyss Warrior
 181 Posts



 | | 11/27/2007 11:17 AM |
| Golden Wyvern Adept Tier: Paragon Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
I actually like this idea. I dont see any reason why a wizard shouldnt have some control over his magic, at least enough to protect his friends. After all a fireball isnt a molitov cocktail, its magic. | | Champion of (Aspect of) Kurtulmak Trade References | |
| nyjastul69 Commander
 2712 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 11/27/2007 12:01 PM |
| Posted By berus316 on 11/27/2007 10:59 AM I'm not sure how I feel about this....
I like the toughness and alertness feat (I like the switch to Perception, rather than Listen, Spot etc...)
Not sure how I feel about action points (probably because I don't know what they are, or how they are used)
Hate the Golden Wyvern Whatever... now fireballs can miss certain people within the blast radius... does that make any sense?
Pretty sure I hate the Hero, Paragon stuff... nothing wrong with Level 3 or Level 7 if you ask me. Maybe they got something going on here that will be very cool... or maybe some yack at WotC has fallen in love with the word Paragon and needed to find as many uses for it as possible.
Who knows... Overall preview value -1 to my happy factor
AP's are from Unearthed Arcana and the Eberron CS. Here is how they currently work.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm
| | In the constellation of Cygnus, there lurks a mysterious, invisible force:
Rush | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5104 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 11/27/2007 5:22 PM |
| | The Golden Wyvern thingy is an adaptation of the current Archmage PrC's class ability. Not new and not overpowered (although it could be a bit much if you can just take the feat at a certain level...now you need to really build your character specifically and wait until around level 15). | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7675 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 11/28/2007 9:17 AM |
| Action Points are nice, but with the current rules set can be a bit broken.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 11/28/2007 9:44 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/27/2007 3:40 AM Toughness Tier: Heroic Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.
Basically adds 1 hp per level. Not a problem per se, but could be if it stacks. A PC taking it 3 times during his 10 first levels would get 39 more hp at level 10. We'll have to see how hp work in 4E, though.
Golden Wyvern Adept Tier: Paragon Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
Meaning you can blast monsters and PCs with your fireball, and now the PCs will be spared. Quite lame, as there is no point to think of combat tactics anymore. Combined with the per encounter/at will abilities, it will become blast, blast, blast... And the fireball-with-miraculously-placed-holes sounds odd to me. I'll call this gruyere fireball. | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 11/30/2007 7:59 AM |
| | Ummm... 3rd edition already had feats that could spare things inside of a radius... Isn't it something like spellshape? A metamagic feat? And then there's the fact that an archmage could do that feat, only better. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10446 Posts


 United States
 | | 12/04/2007 9:28 AM |
| I've used action points (well, I've called them hero points) for a long time now (since 2e--a friend had used an equivalent since the late days of 1e). I like them. I like the control that it gives the players and I don't find that it significantly takes away from what I, as the DM, can do.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7675 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 12/04/2007 12:36 PM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 12/04/2007 9:28 AM I've used action points (well, I've called them hero points) for a long time now (since 2e--a friend had used an equivalent since the late days of 1e). I like them. I like the control that it gives the players and I don't find that it significantly takes away from what I, as the DM, can do.
Dave
Seconded.
In Eberron and SW, the same theme comes across. More heroic, less bumpy, better enjoyment all around.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Shottglazz Underboss
 1139 Posts



 Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 12/04/2007 2:03 PM |
| Meaning you can blast monsters and PCs with your fireball, and now the PCs will be spared. Quite lame, as there is no point to think of combat tactics anymore. Combined with the per encounter/at will abilities, it will become blast, blast, blast... And the fireball-with-miraculously-placed-holes sounds odd to me. I'll call this gruyere fireball. Remember, in 4e it's not considered fun for your character to be in danger of being hurt, killed, incapacitated or unable to use a spell-like ability (even if yer a fighter)...
| | Shottglazz "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand; I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 51 ): Pikel, Darrell x2, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x4, Wraithborne x6, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek x4, Generic Fighter, Auric, Relientkitten Pending trades ( 2 ): relientKitten x2 WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| Puggins Sergeant
 622 Posts




 | | 12/04/2007 2:20 PM |
| Meaning you can blast monsters and PCs with your fireball, and now the PCs will be spared. Quite lame, as there is no point to think of combat tactics anymore. Combined with the per encounter/at will abilities, it will become blast, blast, blast... And the fireball-with-miraculously-placed-holes sounds odd to me. I'll call this gruyere fireball.
Like Kaya says, the "holes" effect is already in 3e in multiple ways. The Sculpt Spell feats does a better job than the Golden Wyvern feat. Ditto the Archmage effect, and you can get the Archmage feature in today's "paragon" levels, just like Golden Wyvern. The Dragonfire Adept has an invocation that makes allies plain invulnerable to your breath.
In other words, this is nothing new. | | References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 4531 Posts



 The Red Light District
 | | 12/08/2007 7:44 PM |
| Is Paragon and Heroic really that much easier and cooler to say than 5th level or 12th level or 17th level or whatever? Seems like someone said, "Hey, 20+ levels have their own name...we should name all the levels...that would be cool." | | Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card -Jimgang
May I mambo dogface in the banana patch? -Steve Martin | |
|  Vrecknidj Warlord
 10446 Posts


 United States
 | | 12/09/2007 5:25 AM |
| I don't know that it's about coolness. It might be.
I'd like to see that what they're doing is something like this.
Feat Name Here (type of feat) Prerequisite: prerequisites Benefit: You get to do awesome stuff. At paragon levels, you get to do this other awesome thing. At epic levels, you can also do this other awesome thing.
That would reduce the dependence upon feat chains and would make picking feats more meaningful over the long haul.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing; My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Wraithborne Commander
 4531 Posts



 The Red Light District
 | | 12/09/2007 8:08 AM |
| I based the cool comment entirely on the fact that they made room for the Tiefling in the PHB because the art looked cool. They set the precedent, I'm just following it to my own conclusions  | | Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card -Jimgang
May I mambo dogface in the banana patch? -Steve Martin | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7675 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 12/12/2007 5:21 PM |
| Feats that grow with you: good.
Feats you have to take for feat chains or early power, but quickly become useless: lame
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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