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Shottglazz
Sergeant
827 Posts
    
Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
 | | 12/17/2007 6:39 AM |  Alert | Posted By vanrulzz on 12/05/2007 8:48 PM
I am still feeling positive about 4E.ÂMost likely it is going to be a good enjoyable and fun game, and we are just being overly picky and not receptive to change.
Van - I think yer missing the point from many of us long-term players...when you take the game people enjoy and change it entirely but keep the same name, you are going simply on brand power. When WotC announced 4e, they have essentially said that they are changing the rules, flavour and mechanics of the game - and that the old game will no longer be supported. It's like Ford remodelling a Mustang to look like a Volvo, telling you it's the new edition of Mustang, and that replacement parts for old Mustangs will no longer be sold... | |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me."
Completed trades ( 40 ): Pikel, Darrell, JeffDHarvey, BiggPappa001, Ghendar, Valinrook X2, Wolfgang x2, Wraithborne x4, Mr Ruffles, Anothermullen, CKissee x3, Browns_Scoundrel, Kyrin, GuJiaXian x2, Tyngfumv, Basic_Aim, Mickey Mouse, Berus316, Crisisman, Zoons, Rockfrd, Sterling40 x2, Brucemc, 2007 Magical Mystery Trade, Redskullz x2, Stephengroy, Lyus_Sleyden, Foolforthought, 2008 Magical Mystery Trade, Kilsek
Pending trades ( 1 ): Generic Fighter
WotC trades ( 1 ): Red_Deceiver
Bad trades ( 2 ): LeftEyeofGruumsh, Yotebeth | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
| | 12/17/2007 7:20 AM | Alert | | So, I am to understand then that wizards and bards will be in the 1st released PHB for 4e according to the Races and Classes book? Just trying to gather the proper information. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 12/17/2007 10:54 AM | Alert | Posted By Ghendar on 12/17/2007 5:32 AM Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 12/16/2007 1:03 PM
Where does this notion that wizards and bards are out come from? I've got Races and Classes in my hands, and Wizards get a six-page spread to themselves, while bards get a short essay in the "other classes" section. And nothing that I have yet read in this book (I've skimmed it and read select sections thus far) suggests that either one is out. You can, however, add druids to the "possibly out of the first PHB" section. "Mike [Mearls] probably shook things up the most when he designed a few classes that will be appearing in the 4th Edition Player's Handbook II. I looked at Mike's designs of the barbarian and the druid and thought, 'Oh, geez, this is the cool we need to be getting from all our classes.'" So how is this book? My impression is that it's fluff.
It's not bad, actually. I haven't read the whole thing, but it's definitely interesting. It's like a behind the scenes on design thought.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 12/17/2007 11:00 AM | Alert | Posted By Teflon Jeff on 12/17/2007 10:54 AM Posted By Ghendar on 12/17/2007 5:32 AM Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 12/16/2007 1:03 PM
Where does this notion that wizards and bards are out come from? I've got Races and Classes in my hands, and Wizards get a six-page spread to themselves, while bards get a short essay in the "other classes" section. And nothing that I have yet read in this book (I've skimmed it and read select sections thus far) suggests that either one is out. You can, however, add druids to the "possibly out of the first PHB" section. "Mike [Mearls] probably shook things up the most when he designed a few classes that will be appearing in the 4th Edition Player's Handbook II. I looked at Mike's designs of the barbarian and the druid and thought, 'Oh, geez, this is the cool we need to be getting from all our classes.'" So how is this book? My impression is that it's fluff. It's not bad, actually. I haven't read the whole thing, but it's definitely interesting. It's like a behind the scenes on design thought.
Thanks
My other impression is that WotC is charging people $20 for a preview. Is the book just a glorified preview book? In your opinion, does it have stuff in it that will be worthwhile once 4E is released?
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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MarioCleanstuff
Sneak
170 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 12/17/2007 12:32 PM | Alert | The book is mostly fluff, but if you intend to use only the core fluff, it's great for planning characters early on. Also, every once in a while they let some crunch in. For example, Dwarves no longer have a Charisma penalty, and all races are going to have a "net positive" for their ability scores (thus allowing the developers more room to maneuver for making interesting races). Drow won't have a level adjustment (they can gain their trademark powers through racial feats; supposedly level adjustment is going away completely), and "are fey, but in type only." Alignment is now an option (and thus paladins can be of any alignment and can smite anything).
There's a lot of insight into the design process, too. I'd say if you can get it on the cheap ($20 is a bit much), definitely pick it up. It's an interesting read. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1375 Posts
| | 12/17/2007 2:35 PM | Alert | Posted By greyhaze on 12/17/2007 7:20 AM
So, I am to understand then that wizards and bards will be in the 1st released PHB for 4e according to the Races and Classes book? Just trying to gather the proper information.
For what I've read, wizard should definitely be in, but not bard.
The 8 supposed core classes : fighter, ranger, paladin, cleric, warlord, wizard, warlock, rogue.
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Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
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MarioCleanstuff
Sneak
170 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 12/17/2007 10:44 PM | Alert | | Warlord is similar to Marshal from Miniatures Handbook. Makes allies do things. The power they previewed for it lets its allies all make a ranged attack at a designated opponent. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6463 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/18/2007 1:06 AM | Alert | | I have been asked to not share my opinions on 4th edition, so I won't | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
7965 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/18/2007 2:57 AM | Alert | | So no more Sorcerer? | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 12/18/2007 4:26 AM | Alert | Posted By Corim Danex on 12/18/2007 1:06 AM
I have been asked to not share my opinions on 4th edition, so I won't
I'm asking you to reconsider that Corim. I, for one, want to hear all viewpoints.
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
| | 12/18/2007 6:32 AM | Alert | Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 12/17/2007 10:44 PM
Warlord is similar to Marshal from Miniatures Handbook. Makes allies do things. The power they previewed for it lets its allies all make a ranged attack at a designated opponent. Guess that makes them like a support role character (the noble/officer from Saga) then. Kinda the traditional role of the Bard. Odd they felt the need to drop the Bard and add a new class. I expected the Warlord to be more of a fighter... perhaps it's a support fighter? | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 12/18/2007 9:13 AM | Alert | I'l be reading it more in depth sometime this week, so I'll give a more complete review when I'm done. I have a friend reading it as well, I'll try to post some of his thoughts as well.
And Corim, pease, share. I've never known you to be improper, so I think many of us would value your input.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1958 Posts
| | 12/18/2007 5:43 PM | Alert | | ok so dwarves no longer can see in dark? what a awful decision | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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moonglum
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 12/18/2007 6:33 PM | Alert | Things I like:
stream lined rules
wizards rolling to hit
warlocks
teiflings
eldarin
the new cosmology
condensed skill lists
rituals for item creation and the like (saves feats for cool, unique stuff, rather than 'must have' abilities like craft wonderous item)
monster roles
foci
more fun, swashbuckling rouges
Things I don't like, but can live with:
removing half orcs
new magic system. I would like to try it, but am skeptical that it will retain a real D&D flavor. Will the spells remain varied and interesting, or will wizards end up as blasting machines?
removing law/chaos (A friend of mine was horrified that they removed
the great wheel cosmology. I never liked it. But now that it has been
revealed that they are not just removing the great wheel, but removing
the cartesian coordinates alignment system, I relate to my friend's
feelings. If you can't be chaotic neutral, its just not D&D. Then
again, the alignment system really is strange. It combines a somewhat
goofy 2d ethical grid with a notion of cosmic allegiance. It is
more interesting to seperate out personality traits from cosmic allegiance. That way you could have paladins that were mean, but served a god of at least reputed goodness)
Things that I dislike vehemently:
dragon born
more sily, cartoonish art (3/3.5 edition art is so far much better imho)
things I hope for:
warforged as a core race
really cool warlock pacts and curses
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 12/23/2007 9:12 PM | Alert | I haven't even bothered to think about whether or not I like the rules that have been revealed in articles because they have totally ruined the fluff.
I hate what they are doing to elves and eladrin.
I hate what they are doing to Forgotten Realms.
I don't like the points of light approach to civilization in settings.
I don't like gnomes getting the boot, I don't like tieflings taking their place.
I don't like dragonborn having a relatively significant population.
I don't like what they have done to the cosmology.
I don't like what angels/archons look like, as well as a lot of new art.
Its enough to keep me from even being interested in the new rules, because the mechanics (especially race/class mechanics) will reflect the fluff, which I don't like. I dislike 4th edition more with everything I read about it. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2279 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/03/2008 9:54 PM | Alert | Well, I've been busy and haven't had much time to follow what was going on with 4E or to visit these forums lately.
I'm still on the bench on much of the stuff I see, some things good, but others look to be horribly wrong.
Seriously, are they sabotaging Forgotten Realms on purpose in a vain hope that gamers will to Eberron instead? I'm sure Eberron is a fine setting, just leave FR alone FFS!
Another concern is that allot of the changes look to be cash grab inspired, the online content and the "No Core Books" So instead of getting a complete book that'll have all the basic classes like Druid and Monk, I'm supposed to wait months (or longer) in hopes of being given the privilege of handing them more money for the stuff I got before?
I'm taking a wait and see attitude, but so far, I just may avoid all their FR content. Because voting with my money works better than complaining on their forums. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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Knight of Wuzz
Wuzzard
-831 Posts
| | 01/08/2008 3:21 PM | Alert | | The races & classes book is all fluff. But it is interesting nontheless. It tries to give you the feel of how races & classes will work without giving you any actually numbers or showing you exact mechanics. | | | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 01/09/2008 1:28 PM | Alert | I plan on finishing both over the weekend.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Lady-Bast
Warrior
242 Posts
Central Illinois
| | 01/11/2008 4:21 PM | Alert | | We know two different groups that have been play testing and we are not planning on converting over to 4th edition. Neither group finished the module, not because of a lack of time, but due to a lack of interest. These are all old school gamers, many of whom don't think too much of dropping a couple hundred dollars in books and no one has any interest in buying any of the books. | |
 My Family Business http://www.likelylotusblue.com/
Maxminis Completed Transactions (29)
LDFF, IHawk (x2), Lab Monkey, simage, Cthulhufnord, Nixlord, ares71, vash9284, thom, kestrel.ca, Aswiercz (x2), Drakkengi, Corim Danex, pappabear5, phreak_storm, Stabmastaarson, Dungeon2004, kyrin, Mama Cass, Iyceman, LordStorm, Venport, QuietGargoyle, Chad the DragonLordofAiur (x2), Oryan77, blackthorne
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
| | 01/11/2008 7:41 PM | Alert | | That's some pretty strong words. Would you say that 4e is targetted at a young instant gratification crowd? | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
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Lady-Bast
Warrior
242 Posts
Central Illinois
| | 01/11/2008 8:06 PM | Alert | The people aren't really talking about it, due to a privacy clause, but from what I understand, the systems have matured as they have gone along... basic D&D, AD&D, 2nd edition and then 3.0 and 3.5. This is a throw back to a much less mature system... D&D for kids. One guy compared it to the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, it was cool when he was 9, but now it just doesn't hold any interest. | |
My Family Business http://www.likelylotusblue.com/
Maxminis Completed Transactions (29)
LDFF, IHawk (x2), Lab Monkey, simage, Cthulhufnord, Nixlord, ares71, vash9284, thom, kestrel.ca, Aswiercz (x2), Drakkengi, Corim Danex, pappabear5, phreak_storm, Stabmastaarson, Dungeon2004, kyrin, Mama Cass, Iyceman, LordStorm, Venport, QuietGargoyle, Chad the DragonLordofAiur (x2), Oryan77, blackthorne
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10174 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 01/11/2008 9:16 PM | Alert | So is there going to be an alternate Grown up version then? Oh wait... that would be 3.5 wouldn't it.  | |
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Robert E. Howard | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
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PaSquall
Underboss
1375 Posts
| | 01/16/2008 9:46 AM | Alert | Posted By Lady-Bast on 01/11/2008 8:06 PM  This is a throw back to a much less mature system... D&D for kids.
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Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 01/16/2008 2:37 PM | Alert | I recall a story one time, of how Gygax used ThAC0 on purpose to keep the players of D&D in the intellectual elite. I've often wondered about the wisdom of simplifying the game, as you may well lose your core audience.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Ice_Troll98
Sneak
154 Posts
In your closet
| | 01/29/2008 10:42 AM | Alert |
You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area
or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.
From the feat design and development.
The Wizard is in.
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I'm not afraid of competition, it's mind over matter.
I don't mind, and you don't matter | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
| | 01/29/2008 1:05 PM | Alert | I stopped keeping tabs on the good/bad, the list is getting long and tedious. In the end I'll check out a book at my FLGs and see if it's worth picking up.
Also, I had updated the first post a while ago to include Wizard as a class. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Ghast in Against the Giants, Darkenbeast in Demon Web. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 01/29/2008 1:15 PM | Alert | Posted By greyhaze on 01/29/2008 1:05 PM
I stopped keeping tabs on the good/bad, the list is getting long and tedious. In the end I'll check out a book at my FLGs and see if it's worth picking up.
Also, I had updated the first post a while ago to include Wizard as a class.
Ding!
I'll check the cores, see what's up.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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