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NotAnotherDrizztClone
Warrior
265 Posts
    
 | | 03/10/2008 10:36 AM |  Alert | It's been a rather long time since I have posted on this board. By-and-large after collecting from Harbinger to about Unhallowed I called my D&D mini collection complete. Further, my D&D playing days seem to be nearing an end as well as it becomes increasingly difficult to find gaming groups and adult life removes the ability to devote the time necessary to play D&D. I have been following the progression of the development of 4e however and I've noticed some things I'd like to share and discuss.Â
I've played World of Warcraft on and off since it first came out and have found it to be a decent substitute for D&D (I live in Oklahoma where gaming group are few and far in between) WoW is definitely inspired by D&D but there are significant differences in the way classes work (better suited for a computer game than a table-top). The more I hear about 4e the more I recognize WoW philosophies incorporated into D&D.
For example, if you look at the stripped down functionality of all classes in WoW, they all are basically made up of the same elements: their functionality is based off of the ability to harm or to heal, they all have 2-3 important ability scores, they are intended to fulfill a role in the group dynamic (tank, healer, dps, cc) and do not function well if at all outside of intended fuction, all classes are fundamentally the same, you spam abilities that either help your party or hurt the monsters.
Now let's look at classes within D&D 4e: much variability has been removed from classes with a heightened focus on combat (ability to heal or harm), all classes have 2-3 important ability scores (this has been a norm in D&D even before WoW), now all classes have been refitted to perform a "group task" (tank, healer, dps, cc) and will not be able to function as well outside of intended area of expertise as in previous editions, all classes are fundamentally the same, you spam at will/per encounter/per day abilities to kill things. Â
Add to this the addition of things like armor sets and such that were introduced towards the end of 3.5, the addition of talents to the SW Saga rules (also known as D&D 4E playtest), and a big step away from Vancian spellcasting (which is a fundamental cornerstone of D&D imo) and you have a huge shift in influence away from the fundamental traditions of tabletop D&D in favor of a D&D that is more reminicent of World of Warcraft then the actual WoW roleplaying game. Â
I'd love to hear what other people think...
NADCÂ | |
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Pedro
Commander
3443 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/10/2008 12:41 PM | Alert | | I haven't played WOW, but I think the end of memorizing spells put the game very far from what it had been and moves it much more closer to PC games, where you just use mana or such. | |
C[][illillillilli][lloll]{=========================
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2.0 Champion of ...
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
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NotAnotherDrizztClone
Warrior
265 Posts
| | 03/10/2008 12:47 PM | Alert | Posted By Pedro on 03/10/2008 12:41 PM
I haven't played WOW, but I think the end of memorizing spells put the game very far from what it had been and moves it much more closer to PC games, where you just use mana or such.
That's exactly my point. I'm not saying that the format that WoW and other online rpgs has created is bad (I love WoW) but I think it works best for that medium. I question how well that will translate into pen-and-paper. I enjoy playing computer rpgs, but I expect a different experience when I play tabletop, I don't want something that is simply trying to recreate the experience I get online.
NADC | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
5147 Posts
| | 03/10/2008 3:09 PM | Alert | | I imagine it's being made this way to make DDO easily tranferable... in a sense. I've played WoW as well, and I'd have to agree with your assessment (so far). | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9464 Posts
United States
| | 03/11/2008 9:56 AM | Alert |
I've never played WoW, so, I have little to compare here.
I was thinking about the per-encounter, and per-day "spells" in 4e and I got to thinking that it's just a different sort of limit. I mean, in all the previous editions of the game, a wizard is limited in one way or another (spells per day, usually). So, for me, it's just one limit replacing another.
As far as classes and combat and all that, I agree that 4e seems optimized to deal with the combat of the game, and away from the role playing. This tells me that the role playing aspect of the game is left in the hands of, hopefully, competent DMs.
But, regarding gaming at, say, the RPGA level, I think that a more combat-focused system is actually better.
Dave | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/11/2008 12:04 PM | Alert | Posted By Vrecknidj on 03/11/2008 9:56 AM
I've never played WoW, so, I have little to compare here.
I was thinking about the per-encounter, and per-day "spells" in 4e and I got to thinking that it's just a different sort of limit. I mean, in all the previous editions of the game, a wizard is limited in one way or another (spells per day, usually). So, for me, it's just one limit replacing another.
As far as classes and combat and all that, I agree that 4e seems optimized to deal with the combat of the game, and away from the role playing. This tells me that the role playing aspect of the game is left in the hands of, hopefully, competent DMs.
But, regarding gaming at, say, the RPGA level, I think that a more combat-focused system is actually better.
Dave
Here's a thought I've been having.
It's a lot easier to add role-play to a combat game than vice-versa. So, if they make a good combat system, and they know players are going to home-brew a lot of the flavor bits, then they get a solid "tournament" game that's a little more easily adjustable for home-brew.
Essentially, it's easier to but the Action figure, and make your own accessories, than to make awesome accessories for a crappy figure. People are more likely to make their own accessories anyway.
I hope that came out right...
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Bail Ohmar
Sneak
56 Posts
Black Country, UK
| | 03/26/2008 3:50 AM | Alert | It's a lot easier to add role-play to a combat game than vice-versa. So, if they make a good combat system, and they know players are going to home-brew a lot of the flavor bits, then they get a solid "tournament" game that's a little more easily adjustable for home-brew.
That is very true, but it doesn't stop Role-players wanting non-combat mechanics. Look at Star Wars Saga, all of two non-combat Feats, pathetic. Eg. The whole point of a Rogue (Scoundrel in Star Wars) is that he has lots of skills, strip away those skills and you've stripped away the focus of the class.
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Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/26/2008 4:34 AM | Alert | I've avoided these WoW vs 4E topics because I've never played WoW. What I will say is that RPGs and video games have been influencing each other back and forth for years now. I remember playing Fallout in 1997 and then seeing some of that PC game's features seemingly incorporated into 3e.
WoW just seems like the newest flavor to come along and influence D&D. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/26/2008 8:49 AM | Alert | Posted By Ghendar on 03/26/2008 4:34 AM
I've avoided these WoW vs 4E topics because I've never played WoW. What I will say is that RPGs and video games have been influencing each other back and forth for years now. I remember playing Fallout in 1997 and then seeing some of that PC game's features seemingly incorporated into 3e.
WoW just seems like the newest flavor to come along and influence D&D.
Exactly. 2E had tons of tables and rules, because that was the big thing in the 80's. 3E had more story and simpler design, because of the storyteller games of the 90's. 4E has a more digital feel, because of the MMORPG's of the 00's
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vanrulzz
Underboss
2159 Posts
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| | 03/30/2008 12:27 PM | Alert | | teflon said it right | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10174 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 03/30/2008 12:29 PM | Alert | I seem to recall a second ed, Diablo II game as well.
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/31/2008 10:17 AM | Alert | Posted By Cthulhufnord on 03/30/2008 12:29 PM
I seem to recall a second ed, Diablo II game as well.
Yeah, they had one in 2E (that I recall) and 2 in 3E (one was an adventure.)
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Idzy
Commander
3080 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 04/01/2008 12:43 PM | Alert | As others have said , it is definately WoW like, and this in and of it self isn't a bad thing, but I don't feel that they did a good job of keeping the D&D feel in the new rules from what I have seen so far.
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Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 04/02/2008 4:26 AM | Alert | Posted By Idzy on 04/01/2008 12:43 PM
As others have said , it is definately WoW like, and this in and of it self isn't a bad thing, but I don't feel that they did a good job of keeping the D&D feel in the new rules from what I have seen so far.
I agree about the feel.
Here's my problem.
It seems that WotC R&D made a conscious decision with 4E to try to appeal to the video game crowd in order to get those folks to buy D&D. This may be totally false but it's the impression I get.
My issue with that is the idea that D&D now incorporates features of these games into the paper and pencil world. This, in and of itself is not a problem, but it's not what I need and want out of D&D. Instead of vancian spellcasting, we are seeing a move to more easily and quickly renewable resources. I see this as a trend that will continue moving forward until vancian spellcasting is eliminated altogether. That's a shame, imo because it's a feature that makes D&D unlike most, if not all, RPGs.
I first saw the concepts of feats and adjustable ability scores in video games and then saw those things incorporated into 3e. More rapid level advancement is another one. Alignment will be optional in 4E. Not sure what the reason for that one is? And don't get me started on fluff changes which just reek of change for the sake of change.
I have been a vocal opponent of 4EÂ (duh), not because it's a new edition but because of the breadth of the changes I've seen. I don't oppose change. I oppose this particular change. I haven't seen anything so far that makes me want this or makes me say that it's any "better" than 3e.
I'm not even saying that 4e will suck. In fact, I think it will be a success. I'm just not sure it's for me. When you remove and or change so much it doesn't seem like D&D anymore. At least not to me.
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Master of the
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/02/2008 9:48 AM | Alert | ghendar, I'm curious, how much of the new fluff your DM is pulling in with his 4E campaign? would it be possible to negotiate for a more traditional feel?
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 04/02/2008 10:37 AM | Alert | | We are just getting started. I don't know what he's planning with regards to fluff. All I can say is that he tends to follow WotC pretty closely. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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vanrulzz
Underboss
2159 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 04/03/2008 8:41 AM | Alert | | well i dont think its Wow but its getting closer every day | |
TENTACLES!!!!!
STRANGE TEMPLES!!!!
FREE PIE!!!!
IM CRZY KEWL!!!! | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/03/2008 10:11 AM | Alert | Posted By vanrulzz on 04/03/2008 8:41 AM
well i dont think its Wow but its getting closer every day
It's taking aspects, but it should still maintain it's identity.
Remember, "Talent borrows, Genius steals."
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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NotAnotherDrizztClone
Warrior
265 Posts
| | 04/04/2008 6:41 AM | Alert | Posted By vanrulzz on 04/03/2008 8:41 AM
well i dont think its Wow but its getting closer every day
It's getting very close. I cringed at the interview that enworld posted about the color coding of the at-will, per encounter, and daily powers where the WotC rep actually drew a blatant allusion to WoW gameplay and the use of "buttons" for powers. I think he even used the term cooldown which is a WoW term for the amount of time it takes for a skill to be reusable. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1958 Posts
| | 04/04/2008 1:58 PM | Alert | In the end is it a better game? right now i cant picture playing D&d without skills/feats. Everything was house ruled or left up to imigaination of the DM. to me 3.5 was a lot better than 2.0 or prior editions.
4.0 seems to be
1. of more of a miniatures based game
2. there are going to be tools that allows you but doesnt force you to play online,
3. rules will be cleaner,
4. faster game play,
5. less rest time between encounters,
6. 1st level advenures wont have to kill just goblins/rats to advance and give the dm more creative freedom. which everquest/wow makes you do?
7. less opportunitys for power gamers to cheat and say they rolled 3 18's
8. you have a better chance of becoming the character you envisioned.
9. you dont have to take a level in a class just to get the 1 special ability you wanted to create your drizzt clone. not that ive done that. wink
10. once youve expended your 1 spell your no longer a just a liability to the rest of the party
to me its still D&d from what ive read so far. a video game can never match that feeling. if wotc is trying to make it easier for younger players by color coding then so be it.
i would be curious on how much the leel of anger in 4.0 has to do with money spent on 3.5
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Host
Sergeant
554 Posts
| | 04/05/2008 1:07 AM | Alert | ignore this message...
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Pedro
Commander
3443 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/09/2008 1:54 PM | Alert | I think it's better to have more levels and to give the satisfactory and joyous feeling to players more often rather than have less levels. The outcome is the same.
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C[][illillillilli][lloll]{=========================
1.0 Champion of Sa'Di-Noel, the famous Phalanx Captain General who gives bonuses to his armies in the Phalanx Formation
2.0 Champion of ...
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cranium Rat
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/10/2008 10:15 AM | Alert | I like the new 30 level system, as it gives more ability to be off in encounters. If 30 is the new 20, then when you overpower an encounter on accidenet (magma hurler) it's not quite as bad.
Plus, more play time before it gets ridiculous.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 04/11/2008 8:45 AM | Alert | Posted By wicked cool on 04/04/2008 1:58 PM
i would be curious on how much the leel of anger in 4.0 has to do with money spent on 3.5
Not an issue for me.
My antipathy towards 4e starts with WotC's basic design philosophy and ends with the fact that based on everything I've seen so far indicates that this game was not created with an eye towards my particular wants and needs. It's a whole new game for a whole new crowd. Some old timers are okay with that. I'm not one of them.
In all honesty, I was hoping for a new edition that fixed 3.5 but was still essentially an extension of 3.5, not a whole new edition. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/11/2008 11:30 AM | Alert | Something more like 3.75?
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 04/11/2008 11:49 AM | Alert | Yes, and I understand the implications of that.
I also fully understand how a brand new edition satisfies, both financially and creatively, the folks at WotC.
I still maintain however, that WotC could have (if they chose to) made a D&D 3.75 that would have been both fun and profitable.
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5329 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/11/2008 12:01 PM | Alert | I agree, they could have. And short-temr, it probably would have done just as well as 4E.
I do wonder how well it would have done long-term, though. Personally, I would have preferred somthing like a melding of 3.5, SWSE, and the digital initiative.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10644 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 04/14/2008 9:27 AM | Alert | Posted By Teflon Jeff on 04/11/2008 12:01 PM
Personally, I would have preferred somthing like a melding of 3.5, SWSE, and the digital initiative.
Minus the DI, I wouldn't have had many objections to a fusion of 3.5 and SWSE because the core would still have been 3.5.
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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superlad
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 04/30/2008 4:26 PM | Alert | | I think that that because wow copied d&d,people thought,oohh d&d=wow but now because the new d&d is out,made after wow then d&d is copying wow.The old class roles have been out since first edition. | | | |
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