wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
    
 | | 03/20/2008 1:51 PM |  Alert | | in peoples opinions what are the sacred cows of 3.5 that should not have been changed in 4.0? i understand that there are a lot of changes that people are not happy with and that some say any change is a bad change. this is just your sacred cows | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1340 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/20/2008 5:29 PM | Alert | The current attribute bonus system works really well. Aa does the 25 point buy for standard campaigns. It helps a fair bit when thinking out encounter challenges. Keeping the half orc as a core race. It isn't going to happen but it should. They are the classic brute and no other core race fills that role. Although I like gnomes the halfling pretty much fills that role. Â | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/20/2008 5:58 PM | Alert | | I don't think there is anything wrong, inherently bad, or broken about Vancian spellcasting and see no reason to get rid of it. It is one feature that makes D&D what it is. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1340 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/20/2008 6:01 PM | Alert | Posted By Ghendar on 03/20/2008 5:58 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong, inherently bad, or broken about Vancian spellcasting and see no reason to get rid of it. It is one feature that makes D&D what it is. I don't think they are actually gettting rid of it. At least not completely. Characters still have abilities that can only be used once a day. And wizards still have to select when daily abilities they will prepare for the coming day.
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Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 6:42 AM | Alert | | so vancian spell casting is a sacred cow and how ability scores are calculated is another? at the end of this i hope to compile a clear list | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/21/2008 7:20 AM | Alert | | The old great wheel cosmology is another cow. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/21/2008 7:21 AM | Alert | Posted By minatoman38 on 03/20/2008 6:01 PM Posted By Ghendar on 03/20/2008 5:58 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong, inherently bad, or broken about Vancian spellcasting and see no reason to get rid of it. It is one feature that makes D&D what it is. I don't think they are actually gettting rid of it. At least not completely. Characters still have abilities that can only be used once a day. And wizards still have to select when daily abilities they will prepare for the coming day.
Yeah, there is still a vestige of it in 4e. By 5e it will be (imo) gone completely. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 8:07 AM | Alert | | was the great wheel something that existed in first edition or did it get introduced at the end of second/third? not even thinking about 5th right now | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/21/2008 8:31 AM | Alert | | I'd have to go back to my 1E books to check. | |
The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5362 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/21/2008 11:37 AM | Alert | Posted By Ghendar on 03/20/2008 5:58 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong, inherently bad, or broken about Vancian spellcasting and see no reason to get rid of it. It is one feature that makes D&D what it is.
I completely agree, I like Vancian Spellcasting. I just think the Wizard is too dependent on it. It should be a major feature, but not THE major feature.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/21/2008 12:37 PM | Alert | | Hit points are a sacred cow. No wound/vitality in D&D please. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1375 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 2:36 PM | Alert | | I think the concept of the great wheel appeared in the 1E manual of the planes. I don't recall if it was named like that, but it was already it. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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yack
Commander
3082 Posts
Ottawa, Canada
| | 03/21/2008 3:04 PM | Alert | | Rolling for Hp ever level is sacred.... and gnomes and half orcs as a race. | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
ATG: Fog Giant
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 3:28 PM | Alert | | gnomes and halforcs did not appear until 2nd edition or later. A sacred cow should be from the begining. halforcs have not been consistent enough between editions. is there vitality or wounds in 4th? If not then at sacred cow hasnt been touched. ill add the wheel to sacred cow. rolling for hit points as well as gnomes? | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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yack
Commander
3082 Posts
Ottawa, Canada
| | 03/21/2008 4:11 PM | Alert | Half-orcs were in AD&D in the first edition they are in the orange spine books anyways under race. See page 18 of the orginal PHB first edition. It's core.
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Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
ATG: Fog Giant
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 5:18 PM | Alert | | and then they went away with little complaint. not there in 1st edition. not core | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/21/2008 5:19 PM | Alert | | let me clarify prior to ad&D | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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yack
Commander
3082 Posts
Ottawa, Canada
| | 03/22/2008 9:13 AM | Alert | Ok thanks, but I guess I'm wrong because I thought the orange spine books are first ed. I guess I never played 1st ed. I have been had!!
See link:
http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/540/540509/magic-memories-the-complete-history-of-dungeons-dragons-part-v--20040819072337366-000.jpg
Sorry... if I'm wrong , I'm done agruing. (or whatever way it's spelt) I'm off the thread. Back to the topic.
Later.
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Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
ATG: Fog Giant
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/22/2008 12:29 PM | Alert | Posted By wicked cool on 03/21/2008 3:28 PM
 A sacred cow should be from the begining.
Meaning what? That we go all the way back to the earliest D&D box sets like this?
http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6463 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/22/2008 3:24 PM | Alert | The thing about "sacred cows" is that people can have their sacred cows, but it isn't really productive asking them to tell you what they feel are their "sacred cows" and then to tell them, "No, that can't be a sacred cow because of x." Yes, D&D has been an evolving game. To say that something has to be in the earliest version of D&D to qualify as a "sacred cow" when D&D has been changing for over 30 years is to dismiss just about anything anyone would say.
To say, well this and this have changed so more can change leads to the conclusion that anything can be changed and as long as you put the label "Dungeons & Dragons" on it, then all is good.
Well, I am not going to say they can't call it D&D--they own the brand name, I don't.
But I can still believe that they have changed the game too much and I don't want to play it. I am not interested in debating what "sacred cows" are. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
1959 Posts
| | 03/22/2008 4:28 PM | Alert | | Corim you are right. It was a dumb idea on my part. i started the topic for my own curiousity and got caught upin long history of the game. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
5362 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/22/2008 10:58 PM | Alert | I think Sacred Cows are personal, just like art or beauty. Â And, much like those things, some people are going to like change, and others aren't. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10174 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 03/23/2008 1:05 AM | Alert | Wound / Vitality points realy don't work so well. They make criticals far too deadly. The massive damage from 3.5 is good, the bloodied rules from 4.0 don't look to bad.
Posted By nyjastul69 on 03/21/2008 12:37 PM
Hit points are a sacred cow. No wound/vitality in D&D please.
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Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Robert E. Howard | |
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Alamanther's comeback
Sneak
137 Posts
Denmark
| | 03/23/2008 10:23 AM | Alert | Wizard versatility. I don't mind if there are necromancers/illusionists who are better at necromancy/illusion than wizards, but the very theme of the wizard to me is that he can potentially become able to do anything. There's a sense of wonder about that that defines the class. And I'm not saying that a given wizard should be able to do everything, indeed he shouldn't, but the prospect of wizards being reduced to feeble area attacks makes him way too onesided.
And this onesidedness strikes me as extremely boring, regardless of class. I don't want to be doing the same thing encounter after encounter, regardless of whether I'm playing a rogue, a cleric, a wizard, or a fighter. I'm hoping that character roles will be much more fluid than they seem now. | |
Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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kyrin
Commander
3107 Posts
| | 03/23/2008 5:27 PM | Alert | Posted By wicked cool on 03/21/2008 8:07 AM
was the great wheel something that existed in first edition or did it get introduced at the end of second/third? not even thinking about 5th right now
Well, it was kinda square at the time, but the Great Wheel idea was part of the 1st Edition Players Handbook.
JIM
aka kyrin
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My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/24/2008 1:45 AM | Alert | Levels.
Hit points.
Saving throws.
Sacred Cows. Period.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3595 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/24/2008 3:47 PM | Alert | Posted By PaSquall on 03/21/2008 2:36 PM
I think the concept of the great wheel appeared in the 1E manual of the planes. I don't recall if it was named like that, but it was already it.
My first ed. AD&D players has the great wheel at the back iirc | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10652 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 03/25/2008 4:44 AM | Alert | Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/22/2008 10:58 PM I think Sacred Cows are personal, just like art or beauty. Â And, much like those things, some people are going to like change, and others aren't.
That pretty much sums it up.
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The details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner and RPG designer from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute and RPGA certified DM named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark and THAC0. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons, D&D every night. In the spring we'd make meat helmets for LARP. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag, forced to walk the walk of a thousand four siders, and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe, which was very handy for D&D. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles for LARP. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
Spreading the love of the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6463 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/30/2008 12:08 AM | Alert | Posted By wicked cool on 03/22/2008 4:28 PM
Corim you are right. It was a dumb idea on my part. i started the topic for my own curiousity and got caught upin long history of the game.
I'm not sure it was a dumb idea. I think you genuinely wanted to explore the ideas you put forward. I like the comment Teflon Jeff said about sacred cows are different to different people.Â
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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