The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
    
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 04/02/2008 4:33 AM |
| My DM has printed out some 4e material that he got off ENworld. My understanding of it is someone collected all the known info and made a prelim PH out of it. My group has decided to give it a whirl and see how it plays.
Hopefully with this thread I'll be able to chronicle my group's experiences with the new system. Given my opposition to 4e you might be wondering why I would even bother. That's a fair question. Simply put, I can't make a final decision about the system until I play it and since my group has decided to play it, I have two choices, quit the group or play 4e. Since my group consists of people that I consider friends and like hanging out with, I've decided to not quit the group.
Details to follow. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5804 Posts
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wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 04/02/2008 7:59 AM |
| | yeah. im very curious to hear how your playstesting goes and if your preconceptions of 4E change | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/02/2008 8:43 AM |
| My DM is very much the type of person who is into the "new shiny" thing, oftentimes only because it's the new shiny thing. Thus,we are playing 4e. It's an attitude that I don't understand, but I'm just trying to roll with it.
I encourage questions once this gets going. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/02/2008 9:04 AM |
| First session impressions - Healing
There are no spells in this prelim PH, therefore the only healing is available via Healing Surges and the Second Wind feature.
Healing Surges are available to any class and it appears that each class gets a certain amount and each heal a certain amount of damage. For instance, the Ranger might get 6 healing surges per day and each one heals 5 points of damage. Healing surges are used outside of combat.
Second Wind - Used once per encounter
This seems to reduce the typical cleric dependence that has been present in previous editions of D&D. However, I'd still want a cleric close by. Here is the excerpt from the prelim PH.
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Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/02/2008 9:40 AM |
| Wow, this is going to be very interesting. Assuming this is a lasting thing, will you be purchasing a PH and/or other books?
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/02/2008 10:38 AM |
| | I have the PH on order with Amazon. That's the only book I plan to buy up front. I suppose my experience with this prelim stuff could disgust me so much that I cancel the pre-order. Have to wait and see. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10283 Posts
United States
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/03/2008 10:16 AM |
| Interesting, thanks Dave.
My group almost decided to do 4E like this, but we opted for SWSE instead. We'll review 4E in a few months.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/09/2008 1:42 PM |
| | I like the second wind feature in Saga edition. It has a nice flavour feel to it. | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
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Master of the
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/10/2008 10:20 AM |
| Posted By Pedro on 04/09/2008 1:42 PM
I like the second wind feature in Saga edition. It has a nice flavour feel to it.
As do I, it gives a very cinematic feel to the game. Very heroic.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/10/2008 12:24 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 04/10/2008 10:20 AM Posted By Pedro on 04/09/2008 1:42 PM
I like the second wind feature in Saga edition. It has a nice flavour feel to it. As do I, it gives a very cinematic feel to the game. Very heroic.
Exactly. 
| |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/10/2008 12:31 PM |
| Meh. For me, the second wind feature does not enhance in any way the enjoyability of D&D. Death has been deemed anti-fun and WotC seems intent on snuffing it out. Or at least making it way more difficult for PCs to die.
Okay, cantakerous rant off.
Next session is this Saturday. Hopefully, I'll have some updates for this thread. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/10/2008 12:49 PM |
| Awesome, between your game, and van's tourney, Monday morning is looking better.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 04/10/2008 1:07 PM |
| | i'm not a big fan of death. its also no guarantee you roll well. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/10/2008 5:48 PM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 04/10/2008 1:07 PM
i'm not a big fan of death. its also no guarantee you roll well.
I'm not a fan of pointless PC death, but let's face it, adventuring is serious dangerous business. I know that 4e wants to minimize death but there has to be a very real threat of PC's occasionally dying or it just becomes a video game where you reset from your last saved game.
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Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 04/11/2008 6:38 AM |
| | If your the dm and you are playing a module death is a big problem. your buddies are visiting for the day or weekend and you are in the middle of a dungeon and one of the pcs dies. If you dont have raise dead that players fun experience goes way down. by giving them another chance to be saved youve increased the fun factor. It happens in movies and tv all the time. with a last ditch effort the hero saves his comrade and brings him/her back from the brink of death. In some cases the hero fails. I think its a great idea and im sure some DMs already had some houserule in place. Worse case if you dont like it as a dm then dont use it. I cant se many players saying " i dont want to roll for a chance to live" | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/11/2008 7:48 AM |
| Can I be completely candid?
The possibility of PC death has always been something that we accepted and dealt with. We didn't whine and cry about it. (NOT saying you did that, but I'm guessing that lots of folks did) PC death is a very real possibility. It has to be, or that sense of accomplishment is diminished. You say that PC's dying reduces fun. I say, nearly unbeatable PC's also reduces fun.
| |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/11/2008 8:57 AM |
| I can see both sides. Without death, the game isn't fun. I agree. However, too much death can dampen the fun too.
In WC's example, I wouldn't choose an RPG as the game of choice, because I wouldn't want to have a player spend 3 hours making a character, 1 hour playing him, then the rest of the day hanging out (or making a new character{although, some people like making characters more than playing them})
I like that players have more ways to avoid death, but at the same time, everybody dies some time, even more so in the dangerous business of adventuring.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/11/2008 9:57 AM |
| | In any event, my views on various parts of 4e are well documented. I don't need to reiterate them out of context in this thread. In the future, I will post actual experiences with 4e and then present how I feel about the system. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/14/2008 2:19 PM |
| Frankly, based on my experience with a 4E demo this past weekend, I can foresee a lot of death in the future for 4E players. A lot of TPK, frankly. Our cleric could only heal us once, and then it was a mass heal, whether we needed it or not. That meant that when the front-line fighters went down, they went DOWN, and did not get back up. That can be disastrous for a party.
Sure, you can do a "healing surge," but that's a round you're not attacking, and they'll just hit you again. You've only extended things by a round.
So instead of one player (the cleric) being bored because of running around and healing folks, two or three players are bored because they're rolling to see if they die or not. Whee. I'm not sure that's an improvement over 3.5.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/14/2008 2:43 PM |
| The healing surge is not designed to make dying less likely, Ghendar- it was designed (as per the designers themselves) to make a healer less of a necessity in the group. From all reports, 4e is just as lethal as 3.5e is during the mid-levels.
As for the death rules, I see them as being MORE lethal at lower levels, to be honest. Before you knew exactly how many turns the poor guy had before he expired. Now, assuming that he isn't killed instantly by the attack (reaching -25% or -50% of his hitpoints) he will die in a completely unknown amount of time. Sure, he might have actually suffered a non-lethal injury that he will recover from (rolling a 20), but he might also die in 3 rounds if he's unlikely, or he might be round for a couple of minutes (though that would be spectacularly lucky on the character's part. The uncertainty really appeals to me.
| |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5804 Posts
| | 04/14/2008 7:54 PM |
| | How do your character's know how long a character has to live in 3.5? Do the players announce that they are at -5hps? They probably shouldn't be doing that. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 8:46 AM |
| How do your character's know how long a character has to live in 3.5? Do the players announce that they are at -5hps? They probably shouldn't be doing that.
Well, there's no official rule about that either way. So yes, you can make an unofficial ruling in order to inject some uncertainty, but that doesn't remove the issue. Also, there's only so much uncertainty you can inject without things getting unwieldy. If players know each other's hit point total (which, let's face it, happens all the time), the DM would have to secretly pass damage values to the players to prevent simple calculations from revealing the PC's exact state. The fact that the mechanics now support uncertainty is a bit step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5804 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 10:20 AM |
| Other than knowing that an ally has dropped from damage, we require a healing check to know their HPs, which I think is the definative way that it's supposed to work in 3.5... and that in itself requires 1 round of action adjacent to the character that is down. People that are tracking each other's HPs must have an excellent memory, I don't have a good memory at all and can't track other people's HPs like that. It's also metagaming, even though as a DM or a Player I won't begrudge someone metagaming that aspect.
From what I can tell about 4e is that you have 3 rounds (probably the exact amount of time remaining in combat) before you need to be healing that character AND within that time if they roll a 20, they can just stand up and rejoin the fight anyways.
I'm not saying that 4e has a bad system. I can imagine it working pretty good. I never liked dropping dead at -10 as your character rose in levels becoming more and more likely anyways. There is a level of corniness though that I might be uncomfortable with once I try it out. And in the end, I guess that's what houserules are for. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 11:02 AM |
| Other than knowing that an ally has dropped from damage, we require a healing check to know their HPs, which I think is the definative way that it's supposed to work in 3.5... and that in itself requires 1 round of action adjacent to the character that is down.
That may be a rule in one of the splatbooks, but it certainly isn't the rule in Core. Check the SRD- there is no mention of keeping hit points or your status secret. That said, it's a very reasonable rule.
From what I can tell about 4e is that you have 3 rounds (probably the exact amount of time remaining in combat) before you need to be healing that character AND within that time if they roll a 20, they can just stand up and rejoin the fight anyways.[/.quote] A couple corrections: (1) You know you have a minimum of three rounds. Odds are likely you'll have 4 or 5, but there are no guaranteees. Hell, you might have 20+. (2) 4e has balanced actions with the intent of each combat requiring more turns but each turn requiring less time. Initial reports have confirmed this- most combat run far more rounds than 3.5e, yet take less time to resolve. Thus, it's quite possible that you won't be able to kill all the creatures before your friend dies. There is a level of corniness though that I might be uncomfortable with once I try it out. What strikes you as being corny? | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5804 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 12:31 PM |
| The, being down 20hps, then standing up without magical healing and rejoining the fight part. Then doing it repeatedly.
As far as not knowing allies hps because it doesn't say you can't share it, there's also nothing from stopping a player from cracking open a monster manual while you fight a creature either - it's kind of an understanding in many groups that you just don't share that info. It still doesn't lessen the tension if you do know someone's hps.
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Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 1:34 PM |
| The, being down 20hps, then standing up without magical healing and rejoining the fight part. Then doing it repeatedly.
I've had this conversation with several friends of mine- as strange as it sounds, that's actually a realistic simulation of what a human is capable of doing through physiology alone.
I offer evidence from another hobby of mine: watching Mixed Martial Arts, aka Ultimate Fighting.
Situation #1: Fighter A pounds Fighter B, either with a knee to the skull, a punch to the jaw, or a kick to some other area of the head. Fighter B falls limply to the ground. The referee jumps in between the fighters and calls for the bell. Fighter B jumps up 6 to 10 seconds later and insists that the referee ended the fight too early. The fighter has a black eye, an open gash or a clear hemotoma, but he is completely lucid and is likely able to continue to fight in the short term. The impact gave him a concussion that had a minor short term duration but could have been a serious situation if the fight had not been called.
Most knockouts result in a much longer loss of consciousness, but sudden improvement due to recovery from shock is common enough that I've seen it a good half dozen times in the past couple of years.
Situation #2: As before, Fighter A clobbers Fighter B. This time, however, the referee is far enough away that the fighter jumps on top of his opponent (unaware that the opponent is unconscious) and punches him again. The opponent is actually woken up by the second blow, and begins defending himself intelligently. The referee occasionally doesn't stop the fight, and the opponent that had been knocked out has occasionally come back and won some of these fights.
Now I've heard the argument that I'm sure a lot of readers will bring up- that damage was non-lethal. I disagree- the difference between a knee striking your skull at maximum extension and a mace rebounding off your helmet is relative at best- sometimes the knee will be more lethal due to placement. Sure, a mace against an unarmored head will kill the guy awfully fast, but that's what defines knocking the guy past the death threshold. There are plenty of "lethal" injuries that involve concussions. A sword smashing against your helmet will knock the wiliest veteran senseless to the floor, but he'll recover from it quickly enough if it didn't partially cave the skull in or such. This new system introduces the possibility of being "brained," which is something that I always thought D&D lacked.
Remember- the odds of recovering by rolling a 20 are pretty low overall. You might have been knocked loopy, but you more likely have been dealt a lethal blow that requires intervention. That sounds pretty good to me. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5804 Posts
| | 04/15/2008 1:46 PM |
| You make very valid points (as always). I'm still not seeing too much of a difference except the range of unconsciousness and the possibility to jump back in to a fight on your own, and as I said it's it isn't horrible, but can come off rather corny (if it happens often). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/18/2008 5:59 AM |
| We had our second session this past Saturday (sorry for the delay in posting). Much of the game was taken up by combat. What struck me most about the session was that the combat didn't seem to be any quicker of streamlined than your typical 3e combat.
During the combat, three PCs went down and then the 4e death and dying rules came into play. I've attached a copy of them below.
Note - as mentioned above these are preliminary rules and subject to change in the final product
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Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/18/2008 6:06 AM |
| Posted By kyrin on 04/14/2008 2:19 PM
Frankly, based on my experience with a 4E demo this past weekend, I can foresee a lot of death in the future for 4E players. A lot of TPK, frankly. Our cleric could only heal us once, and then it was a mass heal, whether we needed it or not. That meant that when the front-line fighters went down, they went DOWN, and did not get back up. That can be disastrous for a party.
Sure, you can do a "healing surge," but that's a round you're not attacking, and they'll just hit you again. You've only extended things by a round.
So instead of one player (the cleric) being bored because of running around and healing folks, two or three players are bored because they're rolling to see if they die or not. Whee. I'm not sure that's an improvement over 3.5.
JIM
aka kyrin
So far, my (admittedly limited) experience with 4e has led me to say that I can corroborate what you are describing Jim. There are going to be the same down times in 4e that there were in 3e. Anyone who thinks that 4e will eliminate that is fooling themselves.
By the way, only the second wind feature can be used in combat and only once per encounter. The party cleric is still going to be running around healing PCs.
Once combat is over, healing surges can be used. This helps reduce the cleric heal-bot burden out of combat but doesn't help much during combat when it's often needed the most. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 04/18/2008 6:46 AM |
| | Here is the sample 4e Ranger character sheet |
|
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/19/2008 4:59 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 04/18/2008 6:06 AM Posted By kyrin on 04/14/2008 2:19 PM
Frankly, based on my experience with a 4E demo this past weekend, I can foresee a lot of death in the future for 4E players. A lot of TPK, frankly. Our cleric could only heal us once, and then it was a mass heal, whether we needed it or not. That meant that when the front-line fighters went down, they went DOWN, and did not get back up. That can be disastrous for a party.
Sure, you can do a "healing surge," but that's a round you're not attacking, and they'll just hit you again. You've only extended things by a round.
So instead of one player (the cleric) being bored because of running around and healing folks, two or three players are bored because they're rolling to see if they die or not. Whee. I'm not sure that's an improvement over 3.5.
JIM
aka kyrin So far, my (admittedly limited) experience with 4e has led me to say that I can corroborate what you are describing Jim. There are going to be the same down times in 4e that there were in 3e. Anyone who thinks that 4e will eliminate that is fooling themselves. By the way, only the second wind feature can be used in combat and only once per encounter. The party cleric is still going to be running around healing PCs. Once combat is over, healing surges can be used. This helps reduce the cleric heal-bot burden out of combat but doesn't help much during combat when it's often needed the most.
Ghendar is correct here. Second wind is just a way to limit Healing Surges mid-encounter.
I like this, because it will hopefully bring Clerics back down toearth as far as power level, compared to 3.5
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
berus316
Sergeant
631 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 04/19/2008 6:26 AM |
| I think of all things in 4E that bothered me, the healing surges bothered me the most. It seemed so stupid to me, almost ridiculous.
But over time it's been sort of sinking in as I read more about it.
But this week's 3.5 session finally made me excited about it... We have 2 clerics in the party and as such, I tend to throw lots and lots of monsters at the party. But one player's constant complaining for healing and more healing (8th level character down 8 hps... I need healing). It is a constant distraction and annoys everyone.
Letting people deal with their own resources (which this is) and cutting back on how much the cleric can actually heal may solve this... or it may just leading to a different king of complaining but I'm looking forward to it. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
References http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12304
H/W List http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=berus316 | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/21/2008 8:13 AM |
| I'm trying to figure out which character Kyrin is talking about, because I didn't see any AE heals on the cleric sheet. The cleric had one honest-to-God healing power that he could use twice in the encounter. It involved spending the equivalent of a swift action and had a range of 5, and healed more than a healing surge.
As for lethality, that's dependent on the DM, of course. You can make 3.5e ultra-lethal too if you give players a nice stream of CR=level+3 encounters. Did these near-TPKs occur during encounters with a reasonable number of xp/character? | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/22/2008 4:10 PM |
| Posted By berus316 on 04/19/2008 6:26 AM
I think of all things in 4E that bothered me, the healing surges bothered me the most. It seemed so stupid to me, almost ridiculous.
But over time it's been sort of sinking in as I read more about it.
But this week's 3.5 session finally made me excited about it... We have 2 clerics in the party and as such, I tend to throw lots and lots of monsters at the party. But one player's constant complaining for healing and more healing (8th level character down 8 hps... I need healing). It is a constant distraction and annoys everyone.
Letting people deal with their own resources (which this is) and cutting back on how much the cleric can actually heal may solve this... or it may just leading to a different king of complaining but I'm looking forward to it.
Agreed, I'm looking forward to letting each player play their own resources to a degree.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1814 Posts
| | 05/02/2008 7:15 AM |
| From my demoing and playing experiences, Healing surges/second wind is a GREAT idea and plays very well. It depends on the player but I would say that a 3.x cleric was very dull for most. Through dozens of campaigns, weekly games, saturday long sessions, RPGA events, etc stretching back to the day the game was released one thing ALWAYS came up: the cleric was always the least liked choice by the group but also the most required for success. This change probably has the most potential for increasing the fun for the group as they no longer have to have a healer. As a bonus the 4e cleric is pretty cool to play even.
For me the thing I want to see the most is how concentration of power effects play. For example 5 Eladrins working together, or a party with triple warlord, etc. There's some amazing effects that when EVERYONE can perform them, removes whole elements of danger from the game. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 05/02/2008 7:39 AM |
| Posted By bshugg on 05/02/2008 7:15 AM
For me the thing I want to see the most is how concentration of power effects play. For example 5 Eladrins working together, or a party with triple warlord, etc. There's some amazing effects that when EVERYONE can perform them, removes whole elements of danger from the game.
Can you elaborate?
Removing elements of danger doesn't sound much like there is an acceptable (for me anyway) risk vs reward ratio. | |
Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 05/02/2008 9:25 AM |
| Posted By bshugg on 05/02/2008 7:15 AM
From my demoing and playing experiences, Healing surges/second wind is a GREAT idea and plays very well. It depends on the player but I would say that a 3.x cleric was very dull for most. Through dozens of campaigns, weekly games, saturday long sessions, RPGA events, etc stretching back to the day the game was released one thing ALWAYS came up: the cleric was always the least liked choice by the group but also the most required for success. This change probably has the most potential for increasing the fun for the group as they no longer have to have a healer. As a bonus the 4e cleric is pretty cool to play even.
For me the thing I want to see the most is how concentration of power effects play. For example 5 Eladrins working together, or a party with triple warlord, etc. There's some amazing effects that when EVERYONE can perform them, removes whole elements of danger from the game.
Interesting, as Cleric was always my first choice, just for it's sheer power and flexibility.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1814 Posts
| | 05/02/2008 6:27 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 05/02/2008 7:39 AM Posted By bshugg on 05/02/2008 7:15 AM
For me the thing I want to see the most is how concentration of power effects play. For example 5 Eladrins working together, or a party with triple warlord, etc. There's some amazing effects that when EVERYONE can perform them, removes whole elements of danger from the game. Can you elaborate? Removing elements of danger doesn't sound much like there is an acceptable (for me anyway) risk vs reward ratio.
Well, you've seen the eladrin that can fey step every 5 minutes. A party of first level ones can ignore any sort of physical challange like a scary bridge, ledge, locked door, etc. It's not bad if one eladrin can use it, but overlapping effects might raise an eyebrow. Our group has already talked that there's probably entire worlds where Eledrin rogue hordes have stolen everything not nailed down by just warping all over the place. :D
They are fun to play though. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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