I will welcome 5E when it comes in about 10 years or so.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 05/20/2008 12:18 PM


Yes, it should, and that's the goal of 4E. 3.5 was better than 3.0 was better than 2e, etc. 4E is hoping to be better as well. I'll concede, some of the stuff looks disheartening, but in my actual play experiences with 4e (demoing Keep on the shadowfell and the sembia adventure, as well as playing a game or two with other delegates) and I'm convinced it will be better. Now, that's a subjective choice, and I understand if one man's better is another man's abomination. But there are problems with 3.5. Whether or not you have experienced them, other have,, and it's been enough people to necessitate a change

I think it's this: let's say the power level can be ranked 1-10. infinite everything (Pun pun) being a 10. Let's say most fo your group is tooling around the realms at about a 4. Then, one guy becomes a 5. Is this okay? What about a 6? 7? it's the heap problem, because while they are more powerful than the other characters, when does it cross into broken?

Or this, I had a character with a high AC. that was his schtick. But that meant to hit me, the DM brough in higher attack bonuses, that almost never missed my comrades. how much do you ask me to lower my AC? And doesn't that remove some of my enjoyment of the game? A new, basic system is fun for everyone, as we all get the thrill of discovering it, on equal footing. Will it last? No, which is why I will welcome 5E when it comes in about 10 years or so.

Posted By Bert the Troll on 05/21/2008 4:27 PM
But this is hardly going to disappear as an issue no matter what RPG system or version you play*. 'This' being small increments of power difference to creep to large ones.
Easier to change play style than keep needing to change editions every xxx supplements/years.

But in *my* games, its a problems when the fun is impacted

* assuming you play a system that allows varience in characters etc.

Area efect damages? Save effects? Rings of protection for some of the others? Etc. Don't really know enough about the rest of your character information or the other characters to know if lowering your AC would be viable , enjoyable or even effective. Nerfing existing abilities is one of the last resorts, not first options, but certaintly applicable to someone who rolls up pun pun.
The finers points of being better than another through good design of character to being broken is indeed subjective.
A high AC knight who hits less hard than the low AC barabarian (eg skirmigh CG vs LG) can be considered balanced. There's nothing inherently bad about one character being better at some things than others either, including combat (imnsho).

But if  one player's character is making the game a whole lot less fun for 5 other people, then some sort of change is probably needed. And is not the RPG system in my view.

Probably is a difference in play style, as it the equal footing line sounds like your gaming is about being competive with other characters, trying to be best in the group as oppossed to being best for the group.
(edit: I don't mean that as being a bad thing either. Fun has a high varience level)

Posted By wicked cool on 05/21/2008 6:57 PM
why do the people who are buying into 4th edition worry about those who are not. They are not in my gaming group or yours. Its going to sell and make a lot of money for WOTCl. Most feel that the problems with 3.5 were not problems at all and with a houserule they could be easily fixed. the holdouts can scream and wail all they want

Posted By Ghendar on 05/22/2008 12:29 PM

For what it's worth, I'm done with the same old same old. My next step is to play 4e and evaluate. Hopefully, I'll have some relevant comments.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 05/22/2008 9:17 AM
Bert, that is one of the best posts I've read here in a long time. Thank you, you've hit it on the head.

For my group, largely, the most fun we have is the exploration of the rules themselves. Finding cool things to do and new themes to uncover. 3.5 is just about tapped out in that area. There are only so many ways to say "Dwarven High priest", you know?

I had not realized how much of our game's enjoyment came from that. But now that I do, I can see the palpable differenc of a group that doesn't enjoy that. for them, 4E could be seen as a hassle of having to relearn something they already know how to do. I had that feeling for 3E, because I didnte to much for the rules at that time.

So, Thank you, Bert, and I hope my post helps people understand some of the different playstyles.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 05/22/2008 1:32 PM


How's the scrambled 4E rules game going? I'm assuming they'll be running your through Shadowfell shortly...

Posted By Shottglazz on 05/21/2008 9:37 AM

Ewww - don't talk like that Jeff! LOL