Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
    
Umass Amherst Baby!
 | | 06/07/2008 11:24 PM |
| Allright, so last night I buckled under (mostly due to boredom) and picked up the 4th Ed PHB. Today I played in the games day Shadowhaunt demo game. I have to say after after reading the rules and playing the Demo game, I do not like 4th ed. First off my issues with Shadowhaunt.
For a first level adventure for folks who have never played 4th ed or possibly D&D...... it was too freaking brutal. We had a TPK today. A good chunk of it was the Four or Five crits the DM rolled against us, but another good chunk was the disparity in power levels. The Hobgoblins for instance were far too buff. In addition to the nasty oil trap that we fell for, they had a higher AC, Hitpoints and Attack Bonus than either of our two "Fighters". When the two of them were fighting side by side I needed a 15 or better to hit them. With Clerical healing nerfed as it were, once our Tanks started falling down in combat it was pretty much all over. In the end it was the Wizard and the Clerics attack spell that did them in. We could never touch their AC, but we could get past their saves.
The two Animated statues were brutal, esp since they were attacking us while we were going after the Warlock and his Skellies. I spoke to a few other people running demos at other game stores and they only used one animated Statue. Having two of them tag team a PC pretty much guarenteed a PK. In the end we were toasted by a combination of the Warlock and the Skeletons, having the two statues crash through our back ranks was just insult to injury.
Sections of the Dungeon were unclear or vauge about what was going on. We had tro refrence the PHB frequently throughout the game. The quick start rules didn't even say what a second wind was. While the PC's were not as poorly put together as the ones last year, they still were not optomized terribly well. I'm still very unclear why they bothered to give the Dwarf a Dex of 14 rather than a con of 16. I was also fairly upset that neither the Dwarf, nor the Fighter were given a ranged weapon on their equipment sheet. We could have bought those in town certainly. However both were present on the minatures, so we were under the assumption we had them.
Instead of getting the five of us interested in the new edition. The Adventure and incomplete PHB (poor grappling rules, no unarmed damage) turned us off completly. Most of us were fairly experienced players and being beaten as badly as we were, was both humbling and infuriating. I'd say prior to playing we were quite open minded about 4th ed. After playing, we have have little interest in doing it again.
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/07/2008 11:52 PM |
| When I ran the adventure, my players were more put off about the adventure than the ruleset. Three new players were able to jump right into the action without much explanation. All three want to try playing again in a less brutal adventure.
I actually didn't get a single complaint about 4e rules (the 3.5 vet who loved playing Rogues was ecstatic to hear that he could sneak attack undead).
That said, the statues were definitely far more than the players could handle. The adventure called for two, but I'm beginning to think there's a reason that only one miniature was included.
As for ranged weapons... The Dwarf Fighter could throw his two handaxes. | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/08/2008 6:21 AM |
| | As much as I enjoy 4th edition, I have to agree that Shadowhaunt was NOT a well-designed little module. The animated statues battle was definitely tough, and tossing in the collapsing ceiling/cave-in was just brutal (especially since one player--one of the fighters, in fact--was carrying one of the boys when the ceiling collapsed on him, creating treacherous terrain). If I ran the adventure again (I was the DM), I'd write out the entire cave-in trap at the very, very least. It was a good idea, but just didn't work well in execution. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2151 Posts
| | 06/08/2008 9:27 AM |
| | in the adventure "undermountain" the first rom can be a tpk. Did you have the option of buying bows? I always check my character sheet for torchs,arrows,food, etc. It sounds like it was a hard module but corect me i'm wrong but back in th old days of D& werent they all | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
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i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 06/08/2008 9:40 AM |
| Sounds like you fought the Hobgoblins in the most advantageous situation to them. Their AC's are only better than the Fighters if they get cover and/or are adjacent. It's not like you didn't have Push effects to try and move them apart and take advantage of your combat challenges to give them reason not to move back together.
I don't know what went on at your table, but it sounds like you played the combat more like you would have 3.5 and did not take full advantage of your abilities and powers. As to the attack bonus, that is either outright cheating on your DM's part or total misconception on your part. They had +6 ranged and +7 melee.
Grapple is not the same beast - you only have Grab now. You plain missed unarmed damage. It's in the weapon charts. Right with a clearly defined "improvised weapon" listing too.
I ran one session. They felt challenged by each encounter and certainly had feelings of about to be overwhelmed, but did not get wiped out in any of the encounters. They even took on the statues, skeletons, and BBEG at the same time. Having been smart with the spirit helped them a lot. They definitely felt like they could have been wiped out in each encounter, but with some team tactics and use of powers, they overcame, and felt the adrenaline rush, but none seemed distraught over the challenge.
The statues were very difficult. But were defeatable. Our Dwarf took them on, and managed to stand upright the whole time. That made them much easier to work against.
Sure, if I spent time threat assessing and trying to kill PCs rather than have the statues and undead attack nearest, I likely could have TPK'd, but then, I'd be doing a poor job as a DM. | |
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javasquirrel
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 06/08/2008 9:47 AM |
| | Our group worked out very well, we had the same situation where it was the Dwarf that was taking on the statues and survived, the only character that did die was our mage (to an animated statue). I'd have to agree that the whole of the adventure wasn't as poorly thought of as everyone is making it out to be, the statues were overboard yes, but you could get around them. My biggest compliant and maybe it's because I glanced over it or flat out missed it was where the pc's where suppose to find out the password for entering the magic circle. | |
If I kill off a 5th level party with only 3 kobolds that were based off Spartans, have I failed or succeeded at my job as a DM? | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1440 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/08/2008 10:58 AM |
| Typos:
White Dragon scenario was full of them.
Anyone else notice the Cleric's list of spells was cribbed from the XP Cleric's sheet without removing the bit about Power of Amuntaur? Just lazy.
Both times I ran this, no one could get in to rescue the boys, so fought Bad Guy next, and of course the statues knocked the doors down.Â
Most of the climax was ruined after Bad Guy was killed trying to get the boys out of the circle [LIVING creatures exiting the Magic Circle...It was suggested the boys be killed then revived later!, but I cautioned against this]
I also ran the White Dragon after each. The second one was a TPK, even though they were more prepared than the first group -- they bought ranged weapons, flasks of oil, which by the way, are NOT listed in PHB!! Both groups ran were experienced players, but found some of the new rules poorly explained, incl. Second Wind.
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Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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vanrulzz
Commander
2778 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 06/08/2008 12:08 PM |
| | lol, I don't know what is with you guys, but our DM (James Wyatt, the guy who wrote the adventures!) was particularly brutal, knew every way around eveything the players could do and used it... and yet even against the white dragon nobody died. and 3 of our players had never played any D&D before. Also as i posted before, the adventure was designed 3 days before game day. Wyatt himself said so. | | | |
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Tooninki
Warrior
272 Posts
Finland
| | 06/08/2008 12:15 PM |
| Posted By vanrulzz on 06/08/2008 12:08 PM
 the adventure was designed 3 days before game day. Wyatt himself said so.
Brutal! :p
Would like to try White Dragon adventure, sadly nobody here go it... :(
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Life is...
Vindicated AtG shot: Shadow Giant (Death Titan)
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/08/2008 12:42 PM |
| Posted By vanrulzz on 06/08/2008 12:08 PM
lol, I don't know what is with you guys, but our DM (James Wyatt, the guy who wrote the adventures!) was particularly brutal, knew every way around eveything the players could do and used it... and yet even against the white dragon nobody died. and 3 of our players had never played any D&D before. Also as i posted before, the adventure was designed 3 days before game day. Wyatt himself said so.
Not calling Wyatt a liar or anything, but there's no way that even a short adventure like that could be written, printed, and then distributed in less than three days. Trust me--I work in the publishing industry.
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"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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MarioCleanstuff
Warrior
325 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/08/2008 1:14 PM |
| | Perhaps there was some misinterpretation going on and the writing went on ten days before Game Day? | |
Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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vanrulzz
Commander
2778 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 06/08/2008 5:47 PM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 06/08/2008 1:14 PM
Perhaps there was some misinterpretation going on and the writing went on ten days before Game Day?
that could be... Still, 10 days is nothing.
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/09/2008 5:30 AM |
| | Agreed...10 days wouldn't allow much time (or possibly any time at all) for editing/playtesting. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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kyrin
Commander
3172 Posts
| | 06/09/2008 7:37 AM |
| The first group I ran through was barely able to take down BBEG + Skellies + Statues. It was a very near thing. I omitted the statues with the second group, because it was getting close to closing time.
Both groups took out the BBEG pretty quickly. Both knocked him off the pedestal quickly with the Thunderwave, and then it wasn't pretty.
I didn't think it was a bad intro adventure. The statues were nasty, though.
JIM
aka kyrin
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/09/2008 10:22 AM |
| I have heard a lot of complaints about the statues and the adventure.
I haven't had a problem with the ruleset yet, but some of the adventures need better playtesting. The rules are easy and inviting, the adventures are difficult and brutal. try the game with a homebrew adventure, ratcheting down the power a bit.
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/09/2008 4:29 PM |
| We used only one statue and the module was still pretty tough.
Only 2 characters completely died off out of the 50 that ran with it, so that was okay. Though during the first session, I though I was going to drop more people than my last paranoia game :|
The quickplay book was pretty inadequate. I had keep shadowfell to help with some questions, others had 4th ed rules. Without those, it would of been anyone guess to abilities and some damages.
I think everyone though the statues and BBeG together. Hard to avoid checking where that other passage went.
Had lots of fun laughing at the image of lonely gravestones on a lonely mountain.
The module must of been made in advance, as shops in Aus had it nearly two weeks ago.
Very tired of adding 'vs xxx defence' to everything and the mark from warriors would be tiresome in bigger battles.
Only one prisoner escaped out alive from my two sessions.
Both games the wizards missed with their first magic missile, which amused me. Neither got tired of using (& mostly missing) using MM all day. No much different to a box but more in flavour so *shrug*
Everyone wanted to leave the prisoners and steal the everburning torches. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/10/2008 1:42 AM |
| Looking through the 4th ed MM. Shouldn't those skeletons have been minions?  | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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bw
Warrior
249 Posts
Baton Rouge, LA
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| 06/11/2008 8:22 AM |
| I had mixed reviews for the DDGD Demo I ran. We had 6
players and I ran the game as listed not adding any monsters. 2 Players
had DL copies and were 'experts' at the game and the rest including me were
learning as we went. Other than trying to find out how the heck does the
cleric 'heal' anyone we started without a hitch. They handled the
Hobgoblin pretty easily, with only the rouge going down to 0 but surging back
up. They rolled amazingly and got the kids without setting off the traps.Â
In the boss encounter they pretty much handled the Dark Elf and all was going
well until the Animated Statues stared literally stomping the crap out of
players. Once prone they would double team them and kill 3 pc's before
they were taken down. 1 of the 'experts'(He had many of the rules
wrong) didn't like the new game and was going to stay 3.5 but the others all
showed interest in playing again.
"Very tired of adding 'vs xxx defence' to everything and the mark from warriors would be tiresome in bigger battles."
This is also my biggest gripe as DM. I had to ask everytime about X vs Y, also i'm going to have to find a way to keep track of marks.
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hup
Sneak
71 Posts
| | 06/11/2008 8:46 PM |
| Is it just me or did a lot of people miss the obviousness of the trap (collapse and statues) and the fact that both the rogue and wizard could disarm it? In fact the adventure specifically gives away that the magic circle is trapped, the boys tell the party and the party can see the obvious magic rising from the circle.
Yes the statues were a menace but again their hit (especially for the knockdown attack) wasn't very high - and the dwarf isn't easy to knockdown. As long as you had the right character facing them, putting the cleric, or wizard in to face them wasn't the best plan. ;)
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 06/12/2008 5:28 AM |
| My players definitely detected the trap, but the rogue just about critically failed disarming it (the cave-in portion). The adventure specifically stated that if the rogue missed the disarm DC by 5 or more, he sprung the trap. Once the cave-in started and the PCs were feeling the pressure, they basically said "to hell with it" and just grabbed the two boys...thus activating the statues. It went downhill from there.
Ironically, they had more issues from the treacherous terrain than they did with the statues themselves. Automatic 5 damage per square and slowed movement = brutal. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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bw
Warrior
249 Posts
Baton Rouge, LA
| | 06/16/2008 5:03 AM |
| Yeah, the statues weren't too bad if the right characters faced them. Since this was a 1st for most, the wizard and cleric attacked the statues and they were easy to put down. The Dwarf was almost impossible except for 1 roll.
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DDM Singles/Cases FS at: www.battleworks.net
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