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GuJiaXian Sergeant
 652 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 06/12/2008 10:25 AM |
| | Minions still roll to hit, but their damage is static. For example (and this is just off the top of my head, not from the MM), a kobold minion might have a +4 to hit with an attack that does 4 damage (not 1d4+2 or something). So, there's always the chance that the minion's attack will miss, but if it does hit, it saves the DM the trouble of rolling damage (all kobold minions would do a flat 4 damage when they hit). | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| MarioCleanstuff Warrior
 323 Posts



 San Diego, CA
 | | 06/12/2008 10:27 AM |
| The Kobold Dragonshields are not minions, so they roll their damage as normal.
A better example here would be Kobold Minions versus Kobold Skirmishers, as both are the same level. Kobold Skirmishers attack at +6 vs. AC for 1d8 damage. They have 15 AC, 11 Fort, 14 Ref, and 13 Will. They also have 27 HP.
Kobold Minions attack at +5 vs. AC for a static 4 damage; they don't roll for damage. They have 15 AC, 11 Fort, 13 Ref, and 11 Will. They also have 1 HP, since they're minions, and are not harmed by missed attacks.
Minions still roll to hit, and have appropriate (but slightly low) attack bonuses and defenses for their level. This makes it possible to fail to kill them (thanks to their defenses), and it also makes them deal some appropriate damage if they can manage to hit.
Of note is that four minions give the same amount of EXP as one standard monster of their level, and are counted as such when building encounters.
EDIT: GJX beat me to it, but I provided some hard and fast numbers, so this stays. | | Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 652 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 06/12/2008 10:44 AM |
| Posted By MarioCleanstuff on 06/12/2008 10:27 AM The Kobold Dragonshields are not minions, so they roll their damage as normal.
A better example here would be Kobold Minions versus Kobold Skirmishers, as both are the same level. Kobold Skirmishers attack at +6 vs. AC for 1d8 damage. They have 15 AC, 11 Fort, 14 Ref, and 13 Will. They also have 27 HP.
Kobold Minions attack at +5 vs. AC for a static 4 damage; they don't roll for damage. They have 15 AC, 11 Fort, 13 Ref, and 11 Will. They also have 1 HP, since they're minions, and are not harmed by missed attacks.
Minions still roll to hit, and have appropriate (but slightly low) attack bonuses and defenses for their level. This makes it possible to fail to kill them (thanks to their defenses), and it also makes them deal some appropriate damage if they can manage to hit.
Of note is that four minions give the same amount of EXP as one standard monster of their level, and are counted as such when building encounters.
EDIT: GJX beat me to it, but I provided some hard and fast numbers, so this stays. Thanks for tossing in the numbers, Mario. I'm at work and don't have access to my books right now.
| | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 11221 Posts



 The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 06/12/2008 10:46 AM |
| | Overall, I DO like the monster illustrations in the MM. On some of them previous editions still encapsulate what I consider the ideal look to be, but most of the pictures are quite well done. | | Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 5839 Posts




 | | 06/12/2008 10:48 AM |
| | Thanks for the details, I'm down wich ya now. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| MarioCleanstuff Warrior
 323 Posts



 San Diego, CA
 | | 06/12/2008 10:48 AM |
| I love the new Bulette artwork. That shepherd and his sheep are in for some trouble, though.
I also loved the old Bulette artwork. I guess I just like Bulettes. | | Completed trades: Brenigin, desiderata, HockeyFan, MikeyChraal, Raland, GuJiaXian | |
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Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 06/12/2008 12:31 PM |
| I like minions static damage, because, as stated previously, it's easy on a DM damage wise. Generally, it's just barely below average.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|  Fun Guy from Yuggoth Cthulhufnord Warlord
 10802 Posts



 Umass Amherst Baby!
 | | 06/13/2008 2:12 AM |
| Fighter or Rogue + Arcana Trained + Ritual Caster Feat. 
| | Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 06/13/2008 9:42 AM |
| CF, I love the sig.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Loquacious1 Sneak
 59 Posts



 San Diego, CA
 | | 06/16/2008 12:43 PM |
| | Hey guys! Personally, I love the minions as well! It can be difficult for the party I'm playing in to see them as a viable 'waste' of an action to defeat, but they tend to deal as much (if not more) damage than the soldiers or even brutes! I think it's just a playing style--the wizard can wipe out multiple minions at once (hence the 'controller' theme), but he was more inclined to shoot magic missiles at the big boss. After a few battles (and some role-playing discussions) we reached a mutual concensus as to how the roles worked a little better. heck, minions were annoying enough that we'd all rather take a little friendly fire (from Scorching burst or whatnot) than risk having a bunch of minions around us, especially considering all of the abilities they have like being harder to hit next to thier allies, etc. | | | |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 06/17/2008 7:21 AM |
| | I have found I love exploding devils. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|  Zenako Commander
 3467 Posts




 | | 06/17/2008 12:17 PM |
| Ok, one bit of confusion here, why is it a part of the minion description that they take no damage on a missed attack? I mean do other types of opponents take damage on a missed attack? (no 4th edition books to look at....)
frankly, minions = grunts = cannon fodder, from any version of the game. All it looks like they did was make sure they are taken out with ANY hit, or at least dropped to 0. Not sure how much different this really is from previous version situations where such mobs might exist, those were also one hit wonders by any melee worth their salt. | | Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project.... http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006 Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 652 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 06/17/2008 12:21 PM |
| | Some attacks do cause damage even when they miss, yes. This just keeps minions as viable fodder--otherwise, you could swing/cast/pray/etc. at them with one of these damage-on-a-miss powers and kill them, regardless of what the dice say. | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 06/17/2008 12:50 PM |
| Posted By Zenako on 06/17/2008 12:17 PM Ok, one bit of confusion here, why is it a part of the minion description that they take no damage on a missed attack? I mean do other types of opponents take damage on a missed attack? (no 4th edition books to look at....)
frankly, minions = grunts = cannon fodder, from any version of the game. All it looks like they did was make sure they are taken out with ANY hit, or at least dropped to 0. Not sure how much different this really is from previous version situations where such mobs might exist, those were also one hit wonders by any melee worth their salt.
Think splash damage or AoE attacks.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|  Zenako Commander
 3467 Posts




 | | 06/17/2008 1:00 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/17/2008 12:50 PM Posted By Zenako on 06/17/2008 12:17 PM Ok, one bit of confusion here, why is it a part of the minion description that they take no damage on a missed attack? I mean do other types of opponents take damage on a missed attack? (no 4th edition books to look at....)
frankly, minions = grunts = cannon fodder, from any version of the game. All it looks like they did was make sure they are taken out with ANY hit, or at least dropped to 0. Not sure how much different this really is from previous version situations where such mobs might exist, those were also one hit wonders by any melee worth their salt. Think splash damage or AoE attacks.
Well I think I would not have considered those to be missed attacks I guess...since those are intended to damage anything in the area. | | Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project.... http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006 Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3858 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 06/17/2008 4:27 PM |
| | Quite a few powers on the gameday adventure had 'on miss do x damage' | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 06/18/2008 9:36 AM |
| I like that, it makes them a bit of a challenge, about like normal minions.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|  Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3484 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 06/18/2008 9:37 AM |
| | I like that 4 is a nice, round number. I mean, come on, D&D 3.5? What's with the decimal? Are we writing software, here? | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
|  Zenako Commander
 3467 Posts




 | | 06/18/2008 10:47 AM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 06/17/2008 4:27 PM Quite a few powers on the gameday adventure had 'on miss do x damage'
Out of context that sounds wierd.... So when you try something you either do X on a miss=fail and Y on a hit=success? (where Y is presumably the more desired result).
| | Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project.... http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006 Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3858 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 06/18/2008 4:23 PM |
| Posted By Zenako on 06/18/2008 10:47 AM Posted By Bert the Troll on 06/17/2008 4:27 PM Quite a few powers on the gameday adventure had 'on miss do x damage' Out of context that sounds wierd.... So when you try something you either do X on a miss=fail and Y on a hit=success? (where Y is presumably the more desired result).
There are the sample characters over here , but for example the dwarf fighter had 'at will' reaping strike: On hit 1d12+5 damage, on miss do 3 damage. The rouge had a daily power that on miss did half damage. I thought there were a couple of others, but maybe is blurred memory between a lot of reaping strikes done, and a few different characters made. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| zdrake Warrior
 279 Posts



 Albany, CA (near Berkeley)
 | | 06/18/2008 11:05 PM |
| From my blog entry on what I like about 4th edition: http://zdrake.blogspot.com/2008/06/4th-edition-interactive-pdf-character.html
Things I like about 4th edition:
* Minions! They have 1 hp! They inflict constant amounts of damage, so you don't have to roll another die! They are super simple to run! Now you can throw 20 goblins at the party and things are still manageable! * Everyone gets cool powers! Cool powers are my favorite things, and every class gets 'em. * Skills are broader: Instead of Swim, Climb, and Jump, you have Athletics. Instead of Search, Spot, and Listen, you have perception. This is nice. Also, you don't have to spend a lot of time spending ranks: either you're trained in it, or not. If you want to be super good, spend a feat (you've got a lot more). * Super convenient encounter format: Everything you need to run an encounter on a 2-page spread in the module! Yay! Encounter statistics, setup, map, features, treasure, tactics... it's all in one place without flipping around to a zillion different pages and books! Hooray! * No dead levels! Every level, you get a feat or a power! * Strong start: One hit from a regular orc is not going to drop your 1st level wizard anymore. A first level character isn't so wimpy compared to the amount of damage that low level monsters throw around. * Your race matters: Races give cool powers. Did I tell you I like cool powers? They also allow you to access race-restricted feats. | | Champion of Acererak the Demi-Lich (w/ Epic Card) D&D minis gathering in Berkeley, CA at Games of Berkeley (every other Tuesday, and sometimes every Tuesday.) | |
| gausse Sergeant
 951 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 07/07/2008 11:13 AM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 06/18/2008 9:37 AM I like that 4 is a nice, round number. I mean, come on, D&D 3.5? What's with the decimal? Are we writing software, here? I am sure 4.5 will be along shortly, after reading the 4e books and playtesting it a while.
| | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
| |
| griffrat Commander
 3506 Posts




 | | 07/07/2008 6:19 PM |
| Well, after reading some posts from some of the new and old folks around here, I can say that I am intrigued. Intrigued indeed, minions!! I guess after my trip to Memphis to play some Warhammer I am going to pick up the core books and sink my "teeth" into them.
I am glad to see the interesting aspects as put for by everyone!!! Hoo-ray fun!!! it is all about the fun don't think it has changed!!
| | Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
|  Knight of Wuzz Wuzzard
-827 Posts




 | | 07/07/2008 10:44 PM |
| The best thing about minions is *not* being freed from rolling damage dice. The best part is not needing to record *anything* about them at all! If an attack hits, the minion is *gone*. Just remove the mini from the board. done. So a battle with one boss, two soldiers and eight minions only needs the DM to keep track of three not all eleven.
Also, the points earlier about the minions still being effective. When you rolled-your-own minions in earlier editions, to get ones with small enough HP to make killing them easy you ended up with ones that were not able to actually hit the PC's. Your hordes or goblins or skeletens practically had to roll 20's to even hit. 4E minions are leveled appropriately so they still are a threat, they actually can hit and do damage; not as much as the other bad-guys but still a major threat. | | | |
| Username Warlord
 5636 Posts




 | | 07/08/2008 12:52 PM |
| | I'll try to read my books, and let y'all know. | | Originally posted by Schooly_D Username - he deals in minis Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4834 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 07/08/2008 8:08 PM |
| Posted By Wuzzard on 07/07/2008 10:44 PM The best thing about minions is *not* being freed from rolling damage dice. The best part is not needing to record *anything* about them at all! If an attack hits, the minion is *gone*. Just remove the mini from the board. done. So a battle with one boss, two soldiers and eight minions only needs the DM to keep track of three not all eleven.
Also, the points earlier about the minions still being effective. When you rolled-your-own minions in earlier editions, to get ones with small enough HP to make killing them easy you ended up with ones that were not able to actually hit the PC's. Your hordes or goblins or skeletens practically had to roll 20's to even hit. 4E minions are leveled appropriately so they still are a threat, they actually can hit and do damage; not as much as the other bad-guys but still a major threat. Wuzzard is a genius.
Exactly my thoughts on minions. I also like that fact that their "take no damage on a missed attack" trumps missed-attack alternate effects. They go down easy but you do have to actually connect 
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 07/09/2008 9:47 AM |
| I agree with Wuzzard, the best part of minions is the lack of bookkeeping needed.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| oldboy88 Skirmisher
 1 Posts



 | | 08/11/2008 3:49 PM |
| I registered just now so I could add my two cents on minions. It's surprising how divided the reception to them is.
My favorite thing about minions and making monsters in 4th Edition is how versatile it's become. Now if I want to play some uber/superhero epic campaign where the PCs are level 1 badasses I can make hoards of ogre, troll, demon etc minions that fall in a hit. I don't have to work them up some predetermined ladder of monsters. Sometimes you just don't want to fight goblinoids.
On the opposite side however, if I want a grittier, more realistic game I can just choose not have minions at all, or only use them for the absolute weakest of enemies. I can also make human/core class enemies of any level without all the work that was generally required before.
The best thing about it is that I have the option to choose which feel I'm going for based on what I think my players are looking for, and no matter which I decide making monsters for either feel is easy and enjoyable. The new system for creating monsters and npcs is a real boon in my games. | | | |
| Thailfi Sergeant
 955 Posts




 | | 08/12/2008 7:57 AM |
| My group never made the jump from 2e to 3e so I can't make any comparisons about game play. From just reading the rules it seems like 4e greatly simplified gameplay without going back to the make up the rules on the fly that 1e/2e needed. I like that every class always has something unique and worthwhile to do in every combat. I like that you can take every class in multiple directions. All the races and classes have a unique flavor in keeping with a fantasy setting. I like that they helped out 1st level characters so that low level encounters are not so deadly. I like that they seem to have eliminated 1 shot kills from the game. No save or die stuff in this edition. I really like that level draining is completely gone. Minions are a cool idea.
I am concerned about the length of combat. Just doing the math on higher level encounters and the characters ability to dish out damage, it seems like the fights are going to drag on a little. I'll have to actually play them to get a good read on them though.  | | Thailfi's Have/Want List Thailfi's References | |
| ransom Sneak
 92 Posts




 | | 08/22/2008 6:58 AM |
| I like the minions---and love the lack of bookkeeping. I am much in love with the lack of multiple attacks--I know that there are feats you can take--but nothing would slow a game(3.5) more than a player that would use the sword/dagger combo and then seem to need to switch back and forth every other combat round
1st level magic missile every round---now with a roll to hit---keeps the game in balance and does not leave the the wizard with nothing to do after all spells are cast
Quick for new players to pick up---I ran 3 intro games during Gencon each group had 2 combat encounters and 2 skill challenges---everything went smooth. | | | |
| tirwin Sergeant
 455 Posts



 North Dakota, USA
 | | 08/24/2008 2:48 PM |
| I have been playing since 1983 in Jr. High and feel each edition has had improvements. I liked 3.x a lot and wasn't very happy about changing it but after playing 4e I must admit that I enjoy it and can see how it will speed up play and make high level play easier which hopefully means more fun (I have impatient players who dislike a slow pace of endless math and difficult game play and I can't blame them). I have thousands of dollars in 3rd edition books but I will still change and hope some remain somewhat useful in the grand scheme of things. I will defintely not hesitate to go back to third edition with all my books and adventures if I become disenchanted with 4e, but I will give it a chance and spend more money (what can I say I'm a sucker).
 I am really looking forward to high level play now and that wasn't the case with 3rd edition. I think the new stat blocks are also more understandable and easier to use. Encounters with pc levels will now be easier to operate without being a master at every class ever created. 3.x really frustrated me with all these character level opponents, especially since I play once a week and have a family and a job. I never had time to master all these classes and had only played a few myself before becoming a full time DM. What I like about 4e is the special abilities of each class from a leg sweep by a fighter type to spell abilities by wizards that are at-will powers. I also like the array of actions possible on one turn because of the standard action, move action, and minor action, plus the possible free action. It just seems like the categories are better thought out and allow you to do much more in a turn with certain classes like the cleric.Â
I know a cleric doesn't have to be the group medic and when I made one I saw myself as more of a fighter, but others in the group expect you to sit and heal them and this annoys some people. There is nothing worse than people telling others how they should run their character, but this is why some feel clerics become medics. I have a few high maintance people in our group who are constantly try to steal the spotlight from others or run "the show" so to speak, and I know when the cleric in the group doesn't heal him when he needs it he complains about the cleric for the next two weeks. Some people just aren't blessed with common sense or proper social graces, and think they know it all and are always willing to tell you about it. Just turn the other cheek and hope they eventually figure it out, but some never do. Our "must be the center of attention character" is slowly improving but he still has his moments where we all want to roll our eyes. | | Here is my have want list: http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=tirwin Successful Trades: Irav222 (x2), Darkfather, Kaya Kenobi, conanb1, dudeeehm, Uk, Master Elminster, tmertz, Shasack, Drewskie, et39100 (x2), Gaddszooks (x4), Romers, Weinbergphp, Vaasic, Navaire, lurch_E_bean, dobblegog, cjmax, jthm, Meds x2, hellfire2, w33zrfan, unmaker, sthig, Eldarion, drowdude, DM Lackey, griffat, eryador, tsech (not sure if this is his screen name?), Jordan, entropysoda, MikeWis, HalifaxDM, Targan, Drakul, wraith428, dmindock, mythoscreature, Tenlado,Chaotic Good, Asteroidjawa, Puggins, Bdog, slapdragon, Drakkengi,WarRabbit(2), Mnpatsfan, Greymouse, Snapdragon, Isondaho, Halofurry, Krush, Ekomega, Amator, Minatoman38, + many new trades recorded by maxminis, and never had a bad trade so please help keep the streak alive, thanks! Harbringer 80/80, Dragoneye 60/60, Archfiends 60/60, Giants of Legend 72/72, Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, War Drums 60/60, War of the Dragon Queen 60/60, Blood War 60/60, Unhallowed 60/60, Night Below 60/60, DoD 60/60, I'm done listing just assume I have them all because I do, thanks. | |
| Board Rider Skirmisher
 39 Posts



 | | 08/26/2008 1:21 PM |
| I am a bit weird when it comes to 4E D&D. A lot of the stuff I like I also find disenchanting. A few examples are the new PC classes. They scale easier, are easier to handle at higher levels and have no dead levels. But I hate them for that to. It's a bit too static and compartmentalized for my taste. Want to be a dual dagger weilding rogue? Well, you *can* but be prepared to spend a lot of feats and time on it.
I like the way skills are easier to progress through but find them to be a limited as well. No more bluffing (trained) unless your class allows it or you take a feat. In 3.5 I liked how you could dabble in other skills.
I like minions as a DM for disrupter pieces (catching things on fire, holding down PCs) but hate them as a player. As a player I feel I am just going through the motions to get to the BBEG. As a DM they do allow for some more creativity when creating encounters.
PCs are tough, but a little too tough. I have found, as both a player and DM, that unless you go above the XP pool alloted for an encounter then the PCs usually win out with little issue. I have read about TPKs but usually those came from poor encounter design (way too high level enemy) and not player tactics. I literally have never feared for my Warlocks life or for my Swordmages either. As a DM I get frustrated that a well balanced encounter usually means a mop up for the players unless I specifically stack the terrain against them.
I like how things are back to a more DMs fiat kind of play but cringe to think if I played under a DM who had no idea what he was doing or was having a bad day.
I suppose my biggest issue has nothing to do with 4E at all. I simply never had an issue with all of the math, optimizing, splatbooks or mechanics that came with 3.5. Of course, some people did so 4E is probably best for them. That is a good thing for the community to have that option.
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