Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
    
Umass Amherst Baby!
 | | 06/13/2008 11:07 PM |
| So in the PHB hitpoints at first level are determined by adding your Con Score + the Starting Hitpoints for the class. At 2nd level and above your class provides more HP but you do not add your Con modifier. I noticed the group of players in my 4th ed game played much less attention to the Con score, most had it at 10 or 11. When you you can use your strength to determine your Fort saves, con does not seem as important.
Now when I went through the DMG for creating NPCs for my campain I noticed they did not add the Con score at first level, rather they added the modifier at 1st and all other subsequent levels. This seems more in line with earlier editions of D&D and would make Con less of a dump stat in the new edition.
Any Thoughts?
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/15/2008 9:21 AM |
| This is a tough one because I won't have a handle on how I like things until I play several characters and have some experience with the new rules. That said, the pre-gen 1st level characters we've been using thus far have so many hit points (and access to so many during play) that I'm really not seeing hit points as an issue right now. This may change in a few levels, when a character's HP/Level ratio calms down. But, I suppose that this will happen with some of the PCs' adversaries as well.
I do like the options available for saves, that opens the door for some more flavorful characters.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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vanrulzz
Commander
2778 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 06/15/2008 9:44 PM |
| | I would rule it more the second way. the hp/level gain, even with the 1st level mega boost, seems way too low. | | | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/15/2008 9:59 PM |
| I just don't like Con ending up as a dump stat.
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/15/2008 10:33 PM |
| Con does seem to be the 4e dump stat. Only fighters and warlords have powers which utilize Con. The only skill which is Con-based is Endurance.
However, anyone wishing to use armor heavier than leather needs at least a decent Con score. A number of feats (Dark Fury, Fast Runner, Improved Dark One's Blessing, Improved Fate of the Void, Potent Challenge, Raging Storm, Armor Specialization, Deadly Axe, Hammer Rhythm, Solid Sound, Steady Shooter, Axe Mastery, Bludgeon Mastery, Pick Mastery) all have Con requirements.
Con looks like it's less essential than it was in 3.x but it's not precisely a dump stat. Bonus HP, armor proficiencies, and a fair number of feat pre-reqs mean respectable Con scores should be standard on most builds. For Wizards, however, Con can be a dump stat (which was not really true of 3.x Wizards). | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/15/2008 11:38 PM |
| Aside from the extra HP at first level, con does not give you any more hp from levels 2-30. Unless I'm reading the rules incorectly / rules are laid out poorly.
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2731 Posts
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/16/2008 2:19 AM |
| | A warrior will still go for a high str/con/dex while forgoing the rest. They might have a high wisdom or charisma though for will saves. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/16/2008 8:15 AM |
| Don't forget that CON adds to your healing surges as well.
Personally, I think there are stats that are far more dump-worthy than CON (INT, for one). I think people are seeing the large value of up-front hitpoints and assuming that characters are already so survivable that four or five more Hit Points are not going to be necessary. That doesn't seem to be panning out- we're seeing a lot of deaths. The game is just as deadly, it's simply not quite as swingy as before, where a critical took a 1st level mage from full hit points to well past -10.
Con isn't the automatic 14 stat that it used to be, but it certainly doesn't seem worthless either. Look to INT for that for any class not beginning with a W. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/16/2008 10:01 AM |
| It seems more in line with the other stats now. It has some uses, it just depends on how you want to go with things.
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/16/2008 11:23 AM |
| I'll have to see how the campain pans out. All of my players with the exception of the Warlock left their con at 10.
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Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Loquacious1
Sneak
61 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/16/2008 12:49 PM |
| | Hmm, I don't see con as being a 'dump' stat, per se. Since all of the ability scores have two different options for choosing the best modifier, anyone who would want a better than base Fortitude save--and was a class where Strength was of little use, such as the Wizard or the Warlock or the Trickster Rogue--would be more likely to put a better score into Con. Plus, since defensive spells are less common now, every extra bit of hit points or healing surges was quite helpful! Many a combat my group have been in has resulted in at least one of us ending up with no healing surges left. | | | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2151 Posts
| | 06/18/2008 5:59 AM |
| | the difference between 18 and 10 is huge for first level character. for my paladin character Con seems very important. I gave him 14 in con using the point array system and it my third highest stat. the extra healing surges are importnat for lay on hands and having those extra surges could be huge | |
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