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gausse Sergeant
 961 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 06/18/2008 1:34 PM |
| A 10th level 3.5 specialist Wizard might have these spells:
Cantrips-Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending 1st-Burning Hands, Color Spray, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp 2nd-Flaming Sphere, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Summon Monster II, Web 3rd-Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Manyjaws, Stinking Cloud 4th-Ice Storm, Invisibility-Greater, Orb of Force, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire 5th-Blink-Greater, Cone of Cold, Wall of Force
While a 10th level 4e Wizards might look like:
At-Will Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation Magic Missile, Thunderwave Encounter Burning Hands, Shock Sphere, Fire Burst Daily Flaming Sphere, Expeditious Retreat, Stinking Cloud, Levitate, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Arcane Gate Rituals Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Tenser’s Floating Disk, Eye of Alarm, Water Walk, Detect Secret Doors, Enchant Magic Item, Knock, Travelers’ Feast, Brew Potion, Cure Disease, Raise Dead, Disenchant Magic Item, Leomund’s Secret Chest, Remove Affliction, Water Breathing, Wizard’s Sight, Consult Mystic Sages, Detect Object
Comparisons The 3.5 wizard had at his disposal 4-8 area attacks that could do 10d6 (35 avg) While the 4e wizard has 3 encounter spells that do 2d6+6 to 3d6+6 (13-16 avg) and 3 Daily that do even less
So the 4e wizard goes from about 35 to 16 average damage Plus the monsters on average have about 3 times the hp, so its really like going from 35 to 5
To add additional insult the wizard will likely miss half of the time, halfing his effectiveness yet again.
Very very lame. Guess the designers were all sword swinger types.
I do like 4e Flaming Sphere, Mordenkainen’s Sword and Mage Hand. They would be fun to play around with.
But the wizard just doesn't keep pace with the other 4e classes like the Ranger for example. Ranger can do 2d10-3d10+6+1d6 to multiple targets. He can easily average around 21-26 damage it looks like.
Other Impressions
We played most of the Keep on the Shadowfell module. The battles took forever, mainly because the monsters have 3x the hitpoints and the wizard is nerfed. I DMed, the players said picking up the rules was easy, but they seemed to get bored with their options quickly. The party would have been TPKed on at least 3 encounters if I hadn't fudged the monsters attacks and tactics. The options all seemed to be the same for everyone, just the names changed, just whack away. None of the cool effects ever lasted long enough to be interesting or a challenge. Effects would last 1-2 rounds tops before a save.
Minions are just lame! They look like there was a huge hole in the game mechanics, and minions were a half hearted attempt to cover it with a quick patch. This Ogre has 1hp and the next one has 111hp, lame. No Ogre should ever have 1hp!
After reading the powers for a while they all just started to feel the same, only the names changed. Same damage and toss in something random (shift, move, slow) to make it seem different. Feels kinda like more whack-a-mole and less a RPG. | | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7617 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 06/18/2008 3:35 PM |
| In a day of 18 encounters, the 4E wizard is very much more powerful.
Furthermore, the 3.5 wizard misses sometimes too.
This is like saying a bazooka is more powerful than a machine gun. maybe, in some cases, but the machine gun can still kill more people over a longer time than the bazooka.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5091 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 06/18/2008 6:22 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/18/2008 3:35 PM This is like saying a bazooka is more powerful than a machine gun. maybe, in some cases, but the machine gun can still kill more people over a longer time than the bazooka.
Plus the machine gun tends to have ammo longer than the bazooka.
Comparing 4e and 3.x character builds seems somewhat futile anyway. The mechanics are structured so differently that 3.x character and 4e characters are bound to be vastly different.
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5091 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 06/18/2008 6:24 PM |
| | Also, a 10th-level 3.5 character should really be compared to a 15th-level (possibly 20th-level) 4.0 character if you're going to make comparisons. Levels (and power) scale quite differently in 4e. | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| gausse Sergeant
 961 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 06/18/2008 7:21 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/18/2008 3:35 PM In a day of 18 encounters, the 4E wizard is very much more powerful.
Furthermore, the 3.5 wizard misses sometimes too.
This is like saying a bazooka is more powerful than a machine gun. maybe, in some cases, but the machine gun can still kill more people over a longer time than the bazooka.
Don't think you will make it 18 encounters in 4e. In our testing the group made it 3-4 encounters max without running out of healing surges. The bad guys have a lot of hp. If its mainly non-combat encounters then you might reach 18 without a long rest.
I do like the idea of the at-will spells. Would have been better if they did damage a little more in line with the other classes. Another thing that would be nice is if you could memorize encounter spells like daily spells, choosing at each rest from your spellbook.
I do really like flaming sphere and mordy's sword in 4e. They can be sustained and could be a real pain for the baddies. | | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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| Sean-Khan Commander
 2720 Posts




 | | 06/18/2008 11:14 PM |
| 1st level opponents have 3x hitpoints, higher level usually don't, unless they are special. Minions die if you hit them. Wizard has close area blast at will, but he may also have range 10 - area 1 blast at will. But wizards aren't concentrated on damage, but crowd control :)
Optimized 10th level wizard would have +3 implement and INT at least 20; Staff of fiery might 3 would allow rerolling 3 damage dies, so fire blast would be +13 vs Reflex, doing 3D6 (any can be rerolled) +8. I believe there's a feat allowing another +1 to damage, with rerolls that would be average some 7D6. With benefits from a leader and maybe combat advantage from invisibility when needed, you should hit quite well.
Minions are one of the best things in the game, if they are used well. You just don't have the right attitude... Just jump in the story, kill those mooks and concentrate on the BBEG! You shouldn't concentrate on thinking mechanics in 4E as much as you had to do in 3.5E. Tracking hitpoints of 20 lowish-level critters is one of the most annoying things as GM... This handles that problem elegantly. | | Vindicated AtG Called shot: 2nd Huge Red Dragon My collected trade reference links Star Wars tactical combat -project My modelling/terrain pages Suomen miniatyyrikeräilijät / Miniature collectors of Finland | |
|  Fun Guy from Yuggoth Cthulhufnord Warlord
 10987 Posts



 Umass Amherst Baby!
 | | 06/18/2008 11:29 PM |
| Heh in tonights game I even had the Cult Leader scream "Minions!" and order them to dog pile the party. 
| | Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
| Sean-Khan Commander
 2720 Posts




 | | 06/18/2008 11:43 PM |
| Lol, I really love minions :D It was one of the things that made me like True20 too.
And about wizard - we shouldn't forget that 3(.5)E wizard was a lot overpowered compared to fighters and most other classes. When 11th fighter could do maybe an attack roll (with good chance of failing) 5D6+maybe 20 damage with a good magic weapon some power attack to 1 target, maybe 2 if he cleaves, wizard can do an easier attack (even with lower attack bonus, unless using 1st level spell to get +20 to attack...) to deal 33D6 to the target with empower -rod, or alternatively 60+10D6/2 damage at 20ft radius (maximized fireball, empowered with rod) at 840ft, half of that being automatic.
I don't think that's really fair either :) | | Vindicated AtG Called shot: 2nd Huge Red Dragon My collected trade reference links Star Wars tactical combat -project My modelling/terrain pages Suomen miniatyyrikeräilijät / Miniature collectors of Finland | |
| gausse Sergeant
 961 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 06/19/2008 10:22 AM |
| The wizard wasn't so much over-powered as the fighter classes were under developed and boring. They needed some additional powers and abilities. Which 4e provided. But the rogue, cleric and new PH2 druid were easily a match for the 3.5 wizard. So instead of fixing the fighter, they fixed and fighter/ranger and nerfed most of the other classes. Made the solution much more complicated than needed. Getting rid of bonus and specialist spells would have helped bring the wizard down a notch Like the idea of giving the wizard a spell or two that never run out, the 4e at-will powers. But then again, a magic missile wand does pretty much the same thing. | | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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| gausse Sergeant
 961 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 06/19/2008 10:37 AM |
| Posted By Sean-Khan on 06/18/2008 11:14 PM 1st level opponents have 3x hitpoints, higher level usually don't, unless they are special. Minions die if you hit them. Wizard has close area blast at will, but he may also have range 10 - area 1 blast at will. But wizards aren't concentrated on damage, but crowd control :)
I just compared some basic monsters like ogres, trolls, goblins and they were all about 3 times their original hp.
Optimized 10th level wizard would have +3 implement and INT at least 20; Staff of fiery might 3 would allow rerolling 3 damage dies, so fire blast would be +13 vs Reflex, doing 3D6 (any can be rerolled) +8. I believe there's a feat allowing another +1 to damage, with rerolls that would be average some 7D6. With benefits from a leader and maybe combat advantage from invisibility when needed, you should hit quite well.
I figured in a 20 int, but left out magic items for both versions.
Minions are one of the best things in the game, if they are used well. You just don't have the right attitude... Just jump in the story, kill those mooks and concentrate on the BBEG! You shouldn't concentrate on thinking mechanics in 4E as much as you had to do in 3.5E. Tracking hitpoints of 20 lowish-level critters is one of the most annoying things as GM... This handles that problem elegantly. Just not seeing it so far. An Ogre with 1hp is just messed up in my book. In our 4e gaming so far, I did not like them at all. Don't bother rolling damage, he is dead. You will still end up managing the hp of minions when there is a shaman about, they can raise the minions hp. The mechanic of minions just seems half baked. Oh well, maybe 4.5e will fix it next year. | | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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| gausse Sergeant
 961 Posts



 Wisconsin
 | | 06/19/2008 12:25 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 06/18/2008 6:24 PM Also, a 10th-level 3.5 character should really be compared to a 15th-level (possibly 20th-level) 4.0 character if you're going to make comparisons. Levels (and power) scale quite differently in 4e. Thats true. It should probably be 12th-13th in 4e vs the 10th in 3.5. Since in 3.5 a party averaged 13.33 encounters per level increase and 4e lists 8-10 per. That may help a little. | | 270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings) References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7617 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 06/20/2008 9:55 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 06/18/2008 6:24 PM
Also, a 10th-level 3.5 character should really be compared to a 15th-level (possibly 20th-level) 4.0 character if you're going to make comparisons. Levels (and power) scale quite differently in 4e.
Good point.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| portermj Warrior
 328 Posts




 | | 06/20/2008 9:19 PM |
| Posted By gausse on 06/18/2008 1:34 PM Minions are just lame! They look like there was a huge hole in the game mechanics, and minions were a half hearted attempt to cover it with a quick patch. This Ogre has 1hp and the next one has 111hp, lame. No Ogre should ever have 1hp!
I'm sure a sword through the throat is just as deadly to an Ogre as it is to a Kobold.
Hit Points aren't just based on the idea that larger things are harder to kill. Hit Points are supposed to reflect the ability to not get killed.
Gamewise they do a good job of creating a cinematic feel where the heroes can mow down minions but the minions threaten to overwhelm the heroes by their sheer numbers.
As for wizards, they have been repurposed for 4th Edition as battlefield controllers rather than as the striker class. The wizard does a better job dealing with lots of monsters than rangers.
Remember, control isn't about nuking everything, it is also about effectively telling monsters "wait right there, we'll kill you in a minute once we are done with your compatriots". This is done pretty effectively by spells like sleep, color spray, ice rays, web, stinking cloud, Bigby's Icy Grasp, cloud of daggers, ray of frost, winter's wrath, ice storm, wall of fire, etc.
| | Do you like games John? Absolutely! | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7617 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 06/23/2008 8:43 AM |
| I'm really liking the battlefield control features. I've always been more of a utility wizard when playing, and now it's even cooler.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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