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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
    
 | | 06/24/2008 9:53 AM |
| Is this correct? 5d10 damage for the cleric to a burst 5?  At level 19 it looks like the wizard and warlock are really not quite able to match that damage, which is odd considering that we are talking about the controller and striker here. | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/24/2008 3:21 PM |
| | I think the key here is the ability to effectively use this power. It's a daily, it affects MASSIVE area, and the range is pretty small. Compare it with Combust, a Wizard 17 power. It does less damage, but it's an encounter area, it has double the range and the area is more manageable (which is both good and bad). | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/24/2008 6:52 PM |
| | I could see how it was designed that way, however, burst 5 within 10 (a 36 square area) should be manageable by a front line character. As I read more through the cleric powers I was astounded at how the cleric is the most effective blaster in the game in terms of raw damage output, and that if you wanted to play a more traditional mage/sorc. blaster, then you should really play a cleric, get the better armor bonus and healing powers. Wizards don't come close to the Cleric's damage output until elemental maw. Typically, they are at about just about half of the Cleric's big smites. Warlocks do cleric type damage to only one character. It seems to be a mistake in balance to me. Ah well... back to playing clerics... | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/24/2008 6:52 PM |
| | I could see how it was designed that way, however, burst 5 within 10 (a 36 square area) should be manageable by a front line character. As I read more through the cleric powers I was astounded at how the cleric is the most effective blaster in the game in terms of raw damage output, and that if you wanted to play a more traditional mage/sorc. blaster, then you should really play a cleric, get the better armor bonus and healing powers. Wizards don't come close to the Cleric's damage output until elemental maw. Typically, they are at about just about half of the Cleric's big smites. Warlocks do cleric type damage to only one character. It seems to be a mistake in balance to me. Ah well... back to playing clerics... | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Loquacious1
Sneak
52 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/25/2008 8:40 AM |
| Well, Wizards aren't meant to have the largest damage output--they are meant to be controllers in that they do damage to multiple creatures at a time even at level 1. Cleric abilities also don't usually have the same range as Wizard Spells. That being said, I was looking over Firestorm last night and yes, it IS a buff power--but by that point your 1st level encounter power Turn Undead is dealing, what--5d10+Wis modifier? And that's I think in a 15 square close burst! But that ability is still WAY better than all or nothing in 1-3e. The other 19th level powers I saw looked pretty comperable--just a little bit o' difference in mechanics...
Also, Don't forget that the Warlock is doing +2d6 to every creature he's cursed at that level--+2d8 if he's got the feat for it. | | | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 8:53 AM |
| | The gist of my complaint is based on the fact that Wizards are supposed to be better at control than any of the other printed classes. By the numbers, the Wizards level 19 dailies are not as good at control damage (inflicting large amounts of damage on large numbers of enemies) as the cleric. By level thirty, the Cleric continues to outpace the wizard as a controller by gaining astral storm (6d10, burst 5/20 plus create a zone that does average wizard damage, two dice that is sustain minor). I'm not certain that the wizard's ability to impose conditions that can be saved against more than 50% of the time is a fair trade off for the upgrade in dice the cleric gets (d10 vs d6 or d8) or number of dice. If the cleric can heal, fight, and control, then what was fixed from 3e where clerics were supposedly the problem class? | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 9:10 AM |
| Let's make a comparison, Guac. Clerics have firestorm at 19th level, wizards have Evard's Black Tentacles.
Evard's
Hit: 2d10+int, victim immobilized, save ends
Miss: No effect.
Effect: Area is difficult terrain.
Sustain (minor): make another attack on any creature not immobilized, and deal 1d10 to the creatures that are already immobilized.
Fire Storm
Hit: 5d10 + Wisdom
Miss: Half Damage
Sustain (minor): Anyone starting in the field takes 1d10+wis.
Doesn't look very even, does it? But Evard's is insidiously powerful. Say you hit a creature with Evard's and deal that damage. On his turn, he cannot move, but he successfully saves at the end of the turn. Great, except he is still in the field. On your turn, the tentacles wrap around him once again, dealing damage and immobilizing him once again. The total damage dealt is now up to 4d10 + Intx2, which is not quite up to the 6d10 + wisx2 that fire storm dealt in total, but it's getting awfully close, and the opponent has not been able to move for two rounds.
So which spell is better? Damage-wise, Firestorm has an edge (though Evard's has a much high ceiling). Control-wise, though, it's all Evard's.
Which spell would I take? I'd take Evard's in a heartbeat. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5747 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 11:36 AM |
| | Are they both vs Ref? Cause, if you miss 1 big guy with Evards, he'll have taken no damage, not been immobilized and will be in your face the next round... and even if you do hit em, there's a good chance you'll do nothing to them next round. I think I'd take Fire Storm where the half damage is guaranteed/instantaneous, with Evard's it's hit/miss and has to be concentrated on (which makes you a tactical target). Sure Evard's good vs lower DEF opponents, but hit/miss vs auto/instant is kind of a no brainer... | |
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 12:02 PM |
| Both are versus Reflex. The immoblizing component of Evard's makes it extremely powerful. Yes, the opponent doesn't suffer damage on a miss, but he is still in difficult terrain and still needs to get out of the area of effect in order to avoid another attack. Evard's is big enough to make that a real concern. Speaking as an old time Control Wizard, I'd take Evard's anyday, especially in this age of massive hit point totals, where even 6d6+wisx2 might be 10% of a creature's hit points.
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5747 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 12:06 PM |
| | I find in 4e mobility is not an issue, even slowed we had bad guys charging us. It is highly situational, and with 4e massive hps it would probably be better to take Evards. I'm a bad dice roller though and tend to take stuff that provides some kind of results regardless. What's the range/area on Evards? that might make a difference to me. | |
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Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11088 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 06/25/2008 12:07 PM |
| Posted By Loquacious1 on 06/25/2008 8:40 AM
Well, Wizards aren't meant to have the largest damage output--they are meant to be controllers in that they do damage to multiple creatures at a time even at level 1.
So what 4e class has the magical damage output of the 3e wizard? Or sorcerer for that matter? | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 12:42 PM |
| Puggins, if the damage for Fire Storm was 6d6, that might be more acceptable. It's 5d10. You're also slightly misreading the spell. If I hit with EDT, it does 2d10. Then if the monster saves, it can move out before it takes damage again, unless you are before it in the initiative order, in which case it takes 2d10 again. If the monster doesn't save, it takes only 1d10 and immobilization. You can get another turn of damage if you use your orb daily. To pull this off well, you need to be optimized really closely, with high int to hit, high dex (Third, maybe fourth stat for a controller) for initiative priority, plus the feat that imposes a -2 on saves but which requires a 13 cha. After all that, and two minor actions, you do 4-6d10 over three rounds. Granted, EBT is my favorite spell for that level, but it is a lot riskier than fire storm.
The comparison for blaster mages is even worse. The only way he can compete is if he takes war mage and finishing spell for 8d10... only if he's already shot all his other daily powers. The only 19th level spell that approaches that damage is disintegrate... to one creature. Why on earth doesn't Meteor Swarm at 29th level at least eclipse the damage of Fire Storm, if not Astral Storm? It's senseless that the leader should be better than the blaster at what he's supposed to do.
fwiw
gauca. | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 1:04 PM |
| Nope, not misreading. Say monster is at initiative 15 and wizard is at initiative 10
Round 1:
15- Monster does something'
10- Wizard casts Evard's, hits monster
Round 2:
15- Monster cannot move, saves at end of its turn (remember, saves occur at the END of a combatant's turn).
10- Wizard upkeeps and attacks monster, who is still in area. Hits again.
Round 3:
15- Monster cannot move, does not save.
10- Wizard upkeeps and deals damage to monster.
Round 4:
15- Monster cannot move, saves at the end of its turn.
10- Wizard upkeeps and attacks monster again. Misses.
Round 5:
15- Monster can move, leaves area of Evard's.
Things look worse with a wizard miss, but then again, things look MUCH better with an orb-specialized wizard, who would force a -5 (or so) save penalty on the monster.
As for Meteor Swarm, well, I can't argue there. Wizards are simply not meant to be the damage dealers of the party, I guess. I'm fine with that, given the sheer number of awesome control spells the wizard still has- forcecage, maze... lots of good stuff.
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Loquacious1
Sneak
52 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/25/2008 1:52 PM |
| | Well, this isn't 3e--no one is supposed to have the magical damage output that broke the game before. The large magic damage dealers are the Warlock's, primarily, to single targets--the Cleric is good, too. Wizards are last in terms of sheer damage, but with all their special abilities, they don't need to be. That was the main balance issue before--they did the most damage, and could hinder people beyond belief. not too fun for the rest of the parties. And while the 4.e cleric has some nice attck abilities, every time they take one of those they (usually) miss an ability that can help them heal. | | | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 3:03 PM |
| Posted By Loquacious1 on 06/25/2008 1:52 PM
Well, this isn't 3e--no one is supposed to have the magical damage output that broke the game before. The large magic damage dealers are the Warlock's, primarily, to single targets--the Cleric is good, too. Wizards are last in terms of sheer damage, but with all their special abilities, they don't need to be. That was the main balance issue before--they did the most damage, and could hinder people beyond belief. not too fun for the rest of the parties. And while the 4.e cleric has some nice attck abilities, every time they take one of those they (usually) miss an ability that can help them heal.
The point isn't specifically about damage per se or most damage. It doesn't matter that wizards do less damage than they did in 3e. The point is that Clerics, as leaders, aren't supposed to be better at doing the signature shtick of another class. The blaster wizard is supposed to be tops at dealing out damage to groups of monsters iin that form of control. He's not. The problem with Warlocks is that they are barely doing that damage with one power to one monster by that point, let alone a burst 5.  It's fine that the cleric "is good too" at doing what the blaster is supposed to be good at. He's just not supposed to be better at it, according to the design philosophy of 4e at any rate.  That's what I'm trying to point out.Â
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Puggins,
It seemed in one of your posts that the Wizard was doing 4d10 over two rounds, which isn't possible with this spell.  IF the monsters continue to fail their saves, it is a good bet to keep the spell and you will outstrip the damage-- four rounds later. Unless you've splased charisma or are using your controller daily, this is not likely.
fwiw
guaca.
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Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 3:37 PM |
| It seemed in one of your posts that the Wizard was doing 4d10 over two rounds, which isn't possible with this spell. IF the monsters continue to fail their saves, it is a good bet to keep the spell and you will outstrip the damage-- four rounds later. Unless you've splased charisma or are using your controller daily, this is not likely.
Oh, but it is possible... if the monster makes its save, the wizard can attack it again and hit again for another 2d10, making the total damage accrued over two rounds equal to 4d10+intx2. The Immobilization part of the spell is what really sells it- that dragon can't do much to you if you have it immobilized out of dragon breath range. The fact that it does a reasonable amount of damage is gravy. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 8:04 PM |
| | Correct--I meant to say that it's not possible in two rounds unless they fail their saves. That's why I said that if the monsters continue to fail their saves you'll out strip the potential damage of firestorm in four rounds==> 2d10...1d10...1d10...1d10...=intx4. You just can't do 4d10 in two rounds under the best circumstances of the spell-- those in which monsters continue to fail saves. That brings up an interesting point. If you are before the monsters in your initiative order, then don't use the daily special orb controller power that imposes a penalty to saves because there is a good chance your repeat attacks will continue to keep them immobilized. Improved initiative/quick draw have good synergy in pulling this off. | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Loquacious1
Sneak
52 Posts
San Diego, CA
| | 06/26/2008 8:39 AM |
|
The point isn't specifically about damage per se or most damage. It doesn't matter that wizards do less damage than they did in 3e. The point is that Clerics, as leaders, aren't supposed to be better at doing the signature shtick of another class. The blaster wizard is supposed to be tops at dealing out damage to groups of monsters iin that form of control. He's not. The problem with Warlocks is that they are barely doing that damage with one power to one monster by that point, let alone a burst 5.  It's fine that the cleric "is good too" at doing what the blaster is supposed to be good at. He's just not supposed to be better at it, according to the design philosophy of 4e at any rate.  That's what I'm trying to point out.Â
    I do get what you are saying :-). I just meant that damage is very different now, so it's kind of difficult to tell with only a few abilities per character class if something is truly unbalancing or not. I don't think that one ability with that kind of damage is going to break the game, even if it may end up being a misprint. I think part of the problem might be that leaders, at that level, would be giving HUGE bonuses to make it comparably worthwhile, but huge bonuses aren't there any more--partly because that made things quickly overbalancing. So many of the powers are just damaging abilities with little to no special effects. It's a buff spell, but one spell isn't going to make the class better at something than the others.
    Warlocks do seem to do that much damage, but the special abilities they get with almost every frickin' power more than makes up for the lack of area effect abilities.
     And there are a few other abilities I've seen that my first thought was 'wait, what was that??'. There's a 1st level paladin daily that deals 3d8+cha mod to a target. Which is quite a bit of damage! But Acid Arrow, for instance, deals 2d8+Int  + ongoing dmg 5, so it wasn't bad at all.
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