The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
    
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 06/24/2008 10:20 AM |
| I'm leaning toward lame.
Maybe I missed something but all one has to do is just pay the component cost is equal to the item you want to create, complete the ritual and boom, you have the magic item?
Wow, I thought 3e took the mystery out of creating magic items. 4e takes it even further.
I know this is just one aspect of the entire game but is this what today's players really want? Do they really want this level of simplicity?
And if I have missed something in the rules, please point that out to me. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/24/2008 11:04 AM |
| | I loved it when creating magical weapons, you had to have certain components to do so... Remember how tough it was to make a vorpal weapon in 2e? | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 06/24/2008 11:46 AM |
| | That's what I'm talking about. They've taken all the flavor out of magic item creation. I can see how some will like this new quick, streamlined approach and I like that you no longer have to trade XP in order to craft something but it's so generic, so boring. Just pay the cost, complete the ritual and you're done. About as interesting as taking out your garbage. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2083 Posts
| | 06/24/2008 11:48 AM |
| | a lazy dm is a lazy dm. Its up to them to change the rules | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/24/2008 12:06 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 06/24/2008 11:46 AM
That's what I'm talking about. They've taken all the flavor out of magic item creation. I can see how some will like this new quick, streamlined approach and I like that you no longer have to trade XP in order to craft something but it's so generic, so boring. Just pay the cost, complete the ritual and you're done. About as interesting as taking out your garbage. It's actually quite interesting... Everyone wants this quick instant gratification in real life, so they do it in DnD now.
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Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 06/24/2008 12:14 PM |
| Posted By wicked cool on 06/24/2008 11:48 AM
a lazy dm is a lazy dm. Its up to them to change the rules
So can I take that to mean you agree with me? | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/24/2008 12:54 PM |
| I don't like the ease with which it can be accomplished. It makes Magic Items too common. Why give them a +1 sword, just give them the gold and they can make their own. Were I DMing a 4E campaign, this would be the first to go.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 06/24/2008 2:29 PM |
| | Thing is, I don't really care for the 4e magic items, most of them are daily use items, or encounter use... Come on, why would I pay a million gold pieces for a one time use that's not even all that great? Shining example is the Bashing Shield. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/24/2008 2:32 PM |
| I'm with you on wanting to make the whole thing a bit more mysterious. But you guys have missed one thing- 4e is mechanically designed to prevent you from making better items than you find.
Take the typical treasure you get from an adventure that take you from level 1 to level 2:
One level 5 magic item
One level 4 magic item
One level 3 magic item
One level 2 magic item
720gp
Now, you can certainly make whatever level 2 magic item you want with that 720gp, but it's not going to be better than those top three magic items. So making that Vorpal Sword +6 is going to be awfully rough compared to finding it.
That said, I'd implement a mix- The wizard who is researching the vorpal sword finds that Astral Silver holds the keenest edge known to mortals when tempered with adamantium. If the party manages to get ahold of a supply of it, they'd be able to cut the cost of making a vorpal sword by 25%. Of course, trying to get a chunk of Astral Silver is going to be a bit difficult, since the Manifest Caverns where it is found are fiercely guarded by Githyanki Dragon Knights, who don't fancy allowing anyone to get ahold of their source for Silver Swords...
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References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3858 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/24/2008 4:07 PM |
| | I'd house rule it, as I like characters having to find bits to make thier loot. (like the Astral Silver). | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1820 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 5:52 AM |
| I was really shocked to see how easy it was to make magic items. I was pretty much against it. Then I considered how tough it was to make items in 1 through 3.5 editions. In 20 years of DMing on a weekly basis, I never had ANYONE ever make a magic item in one of my campaigns. One guy made potions in 3.5, and another tried doing scrolls but gave up on it being not that effective. Never had an item though.
I think PC's may actually try to make some this time. I maydown the road have to house rule in some components or "patterns" ala World of Warcraft, but want to try it "as is" to see if I ever get an item made finally. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
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Pale Rider
Underboss
1006 Posts
London, Ontario, Canada
| | 06/25/2008 6:01 AM |
| Nope - I like it. I always hated 3E Xp burn nonsense. Of course I see PCs using the disenchant item ritual a lot as they get stuff they can't use and extract the magic for it to make stuff they can. If you want to add extra steps to it there is nothing stopping you. I've never bothered with that (of course I also try to place magic items my players might find useful too - I know that is anatham to many as well).
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Completed Trades: Crescent Hawk, Vimes, demagogue, vidman, Eric is God, Strachan Fireblade, FungiMuncher, Dudeeehm, Shasack, gausse, kyrin, nyjastul69
Champion of the Remorhaz | |
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javasquirrel
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 7:19 AM |
| | I have to agree with a few of you, after looking at it I decided that my pcs will have to find components for making magic items. What I might end up doing though is subtracting the raw materials that they gather from the actual cost, but as none of them are creating right now, it is little to worry about. | |
If I kill off a 5th level party with only 3 kobolds that were based off Spartans, have I failed or succeeded at my job as a DM? | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/25/2008 7:31 AM |
| If you're following the guidelines for treasure in the DMG the Enchant Magic Item ritual shouldn't really be much of an issue. The DMG suggests having players make wish lists for magic items and tailoring treasure to your party. Why bother disenchanting/creating your own stuff when the stuff you find is tailored and on average better?
I was never a fan of item creation in previous editions. It was a pain in the arse for DMs (added time to creating an adventure) and a pain in the arse for players (added a lot of downtime/xp juggling/time spent poring over books).
If you want to add back in the 'mysterious' flavor of magic item creation just create a component or two for the item desired. There have already been some mighty good suggestions in this thread regarding that. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1065 Posts
| | 06/25/2008 8:20 AM |
| Id agree with those that believe creating a magic item should be harder than just pressing gold through the old play-dough extruder into whatever Magic Item you like, but I also agree that the old system made me wonder how all of these magic items were created to begin with. It was complex, time consuming and worst of all (IMO) - unballanced the exp in the party. Only groups with extra characters could afford to devote time to such non-crunchy activities. The typical 4 player playgroup Wizard would be hard pressed to make it worth his time.
As Puggins suggests though, it looks easy to moderate as a DM, and is still an improvement over the old system even as it stands. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/25/2008 8:45 AM |
| I think a mix of 3.x and 4E is the best. burning XP sucked, but this is a swing too far.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 06/25/2008 12:04 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/25/2008 8:45 AM
I think a mix of 3.x and 4E is the best. burning XP sucked, but this is a swing too far.
Nicely stated. This jeff agrees.
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Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/25/2008 3:06 PM |
| From the book of Awseome Sauce:
22 Lo, and the Jeff's shall align their thoughts, and the Magic Items shall be house ruled.
23 And it was good.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/25/2008 3:13 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/25/2008 3:06 PM
From the book of Awseome Sauce:
22 Lo, and the Jeff's shall align their thoughts, and the Magic Items shall be house ruled.
23 And it was good.
24 And there was much suffering in the land 
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/26/2008 12:23 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 06/25/2008 3:13 PM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/25/2008 3:06 PM
From the book of Awseome Sauce:
22 Lo, and the Jeff's shall align their thoughts, and the Magic Items shall be house ruled.
23 And it was good.
24 And there was much suffering in the land 
25 Because of Zenthrus' Unbelief of the Awesome Sauce.
26 Thus endeth the chapter.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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vanrulzz
Underboss
2468 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 06/26/2008 9:50 PM |
| | 27. The Angry Muffin always gets the last word no matter when the chapter ends. | | | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/27/2008 10:52 AM |
| 28 maybe in the Book of CRZY KEWL, but the Book of Awesome Sauce is my domain, little one.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10300 Posts
United States
| | 07/01/2008 5:06 AM |
| Here's what I like (I think...).
1) The in-game mechanic for making magic items is really, really simple.
2) As the DM, I can tell my players, "Hey, just because the in-game mechanic is really, really simple doesn't mean your characters don't have to go get some special item, or go on some special quest, remember, I'm still the boss here."
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 07/02/2008 3:03 PM |
| The DM is always the boss...
I think every game I've played in that wasn't "fun" was because we had a player or two who forgot this maxim... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/09/2008 10:01 AM |
| Ah, Rule 0
(the D&D one, not the MM one)
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Thailfi
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 07/09/2008 11:49 AM |
| Posted By Kaya Kenobi on 06/24/2008 11:04 AM
I loved it when creating magical weapons, you had to have certain components to do so... Remember how tough it was to make a vorpal weapon in 2e?
I remember it being really difficult to find diffinitive rules on item creation in 2e. I also remember the permancy spell costing a permanent point of constitution for an item that would be destroyed after you missed your first lightning bolt save. I remember my my 17th level magic-user stumbling out of Demoweb Pits with the only magic item on his character sheet was a +3 dagger.
I think the new rules are great. The good stufff is insanely expensive and players have always needed gold sinks for all that treasure that they are guaranteed to pile up. Gold actually means something in this game at higher levels. With feats, attacks, skills, and abilities designed around specific weapons and implements its good that characters don't have to rely on whatever random magic items they stumble accross in a dungeon.
In 2e why would a fighter pick anything other than a sword for weapon specialization since that is all he was likely to find in his adventures? A wide variety of readily available items encourages character diversity and it also helps keep parties balanced by ensuring that they have a roughly equal distribution of powerful items.
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Thailfi's Have/Want List
Thailfi's References | |
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gausse
Sergeant
951 Posts
Wisconsin
| | 07/16/2008 10:33 AM |
| | Item creation rules are dull, flavorless and just plain lame like most of the 4e rules. Fits perfect. Make a house rule is the solution to all the 4e problems. 4e House Rule #1: Use 3.5e rules | |
270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings)
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Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11227 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 07/17/2008 7:24 AM |
| Posted By gausse on 07/16/2008 10:33 AM
Item creation rules are dull, flavorless and just plain lame like most of the 4e rules. Fits perfect. Make a house rule is the solution to all the 4e problems.
I agree. I just wish they could have added a little flavor to it.
I also agree with the house ruling. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Segror
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 07/26/2008 4:13 AM |
| There is another problem,
Why would anyone sell magic items, if the market price equals the cost of making the item?
The huge gap between market price and selling price assumes a whopping 80% profit rate for the magic store, but if such stores exist and make this profit (I imagine that for this much profit, enterprising merchants will set up chain stores of magic items wherever possible...), than the only advantage of learning to Enchant Item ritual is to avoid stopping by the store.
Its true that the rules say that stores are rare, but if there has to be a reason why magic items cannot be mass-produced (right now no apparent reason exists).
3rd edition made economic sense - you pay only half the market price and some XP, and can make a profit in the process, so you can understand where magic items come from, and you can understand why wizards will go to the trouble of making magic armor, for example.
Looks like the designers took their inspiration from World of Warcraft, rather than from real economic systems... | | | |
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