GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
    
Roswell, GA
 | | 08/30/2007 12:40 PM |
| Rich Baker has been working on the devils and demons in the new Monster Manual. Here's what he has to say: - Devils are angels who rebelled.
They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime
of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were
cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
- The Nine Hells are what became of the murdered deity's divine realm
after his death. The Hells are the devils' prison, and it is difficult
for them to get out without mortal aid.
- We've re-sorted demons and devils a bit, since we want these two
categories of monsters to make a little more sense. Devils tend to be
more humanoid in form, usually fight with weapons, and often wear
armor. Most have horns, wings, and tails. One consequence of this: the
erinyes and the succubus were holding down pretty similar territory, so
we've decided that they're the same monster, called the succubus, and
it's a devil.
- Ice devils don't look like other devils. We've decided that they are
actually a demonic/yugoloth race... one that was entrapped by
Mephistopheles long ago in an infernal contract. So ice devils hate
other devils, retain their insect-like appearance, and have a special
loyalty to Mephistopheles. It's one of the reasons why Asmodeus has
never chosen to move against Mephistopheles. Asmodeus would of course
win if he did, but that would let the ice devils out of their contract.
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"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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Man of Renown
Wraithborne
Warlord
5309 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 08/30/2007 12:48 PM |
| So they've actually decided to chuck every bit of history ever written about demons and devils as well as giving devils a major facelift and making them mostly look stereotypically similar. Awesome.....just awesome....as if I needed another reason to dislike 4e. They've taken one of my most favorite things about D&D and proceeded to throw it in the dumpster.
I guess they can call their new devil the Suckinyes. | |
Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card
-Jimgang
So, you stand at your grave, Has your soul yet been taken away?
So you can't read what's engraved, Is this Heaven or merely Decay?
Was there a light, enchantingly bright, A Question, just how did it end?
Just let me sift through your calm remains, And tear you away from your skin.
-Sumerias Fain. | |
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
661 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 08/30/2007 12:52 PM |
| | From the (admittedly vague) information above, I'm not thrilled about the change. However, I'm willing to wait and see how things turn out. It's still early in the process, and perhaps we're not being told the whole story. | |
"Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2151 Posts
| | 08/30/2007 1:01 PM |
| | wow. that sounds awful. if it isnt true why are they leaking this vague info. which mins right do we have taht are devils? | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/30/2007 1:37 PM |
| I'm not thrilled about the devil's change of appearance either, nor the exclusion of the erinyes. I guess they needed to change appearances of the monsters to ensure that people would buy the new minis...
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 08/30/2007 1:57 PM |
| | This doesn't bother me in the least. Granted, I'm not huge into demonology so as far as I'm concerned, an evil outsider is an evil outsider. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/30/2007 2:04 PM |
| | Not like it hasn't changed with every edition anyways. I like how they are making them more different. Even after all these years I'm tired of getting them confused. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 08/30/2007 2:08 PM |
| Pffff... Why did they really feel the need to discard the erinyes ? Because their excuse is especially lame - so now there must not be 2 monsters on "similar territory" ? Duh.
Pit fiend/balor ? Does the balor disappear ?
The "weapons and armor" part is odd too, I hope devils don't turn into warforged... | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 08/30/2007 2:22 PM |
| One of the thing that I have liked about Rich Baker's work is that he pays attention to the reason why something is the way that it is. That is my favorite thing about Eberron. I have been kind of irritated by how many similar outsiders there are on the two teams that we have now. It seems like many of the newer ones are just old ones with the alignment changed. I'm ok with this.
For those who think this is the worst thing ever, remember there was a time when they didn't even have names, just a "Type #." I mention this by way of saying the only constant is change. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/30/2007 4:49 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 08/30/2007 1:57 PM
This doesn't bother me in the least. Granted, I'm not huge into demonology so as far as I'm concerned, an evil outsider is an evil outsider.
I'm old school enough to not even like the term "outsider"
| |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Man of Renown
Wraithborne
Warlord
5309 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 08/30/2007 6:02 PM |
| | So, when we get a new Bearded Devil, will it have huge bat wings and a suit of full plate? | |
Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card
-Jimgang
So, you stand at your grave, Has your soul yet been taken away?
So you can't read what's engraved, Is this Heaven or merely Decay?
Was there a light, enchantingly bright, A Question, just how did it end?
Just let me sift through your calm remains, And tear you away from your skin.
-Sumerias Fain. | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/30/2007 6:27 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 08/30/2007 4:49 PM Posted By zenthrus on 08/30/2007 1:57 PM
This doesn't bother me in the least. Granted, I'm not huge into demonology so as far as I'm concerned, an evil outsider is an evil outsider. I'm old school enough to not even like the term "outsider"
I like the logical return to the roots. It's alos somehat in line with the Fiendish Codex...
The loss of the erinyes is sad, but I understand it. Just think what the pice of the erinyes mini will do, thouh. No reprint, ever. That should drive the price up... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Man of Renown
Wraithborne
Warlord
5309 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 08/30/2007 6:47 PM |
| | I figure with the facelift coming, most devils will increase. | |
Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card
-Jimgang
So, you stand at your grave, Has your soul yet been taken away?
So you can't read what's engraved, Is this Heaven or merely Decay?
Was there a light, enchantingly bright, A Question, just how did it end?
Just let me sift through your calm remains, And tear you away from your skin.
-Sumerias Fain. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6844 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 08/30/2007 9:45 PM |
| | Since I don't care one drop about demons and devils, my only hope is that they don't take too prominent a place in the game. Sorry to those that like them. I could do without them entirely and not bat an eye. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 08/30/2007 10:37 PM |
| | Not thrilled about this. It's out of context and rather vague - so I'll maintain my "Wait and see" approach until I see the whole book. This seems like change for the sake of change though. | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Bijan
Skirmisher
2 Posts
| | 08/31/2007 1:17 AM |
| Woow, that is really strange, if that logic should be applied many monsters are redundant. I liked the Erinyes since they reminded me of the Elenoin in Micheal Moorcoks Elric of melinbone. Elenoin are womens whit sharp longswords that are cannibals and have animated hair and trap their foes by enchantments.
"they are not women, they are Elenoin, they come from the Eight Plane-and neither are they human,"
...Red-haired women whose tresses fell almost to their knees and covered their otherwise naked bodies. And then he saw their teeth--long, pointed teeth which glimted like metal... The singing grew louder until it made their ears fill whit sharp pain and made their stomachs turn. The Elenoin raised their slender arms and began to whirl their long swords about their heads again, staring at them att the while through beastlike, insensate eyes --- malicious, unblinking eyes.
I get the feeling that wizards are leaving the concept of Chaos/Law, one of the concepts that i liked most about D&D, that it wasent purle inspired by Tolkin and foolk lore but also by Micheal Moorcoks ideas about the multiverse! And one more last remark about demons, if they are the embodiment of pure Chaos, then it deosnt make sense to say that chaos should have any sense! Pure choas could produce beuty, even though it is a twisted beuty. I cant think of a better representation of Chaos and demons in particoular than the mockery that Erinyes are to both humans and devils in particoular! | | | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3463 Posts
Netherlands
| | 08/31/2007 3:11 AM |
| Somebody explain to me why they just published the Fiendish Codexes last year?
D.
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Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/31/2007 4:20 AM |
| Posted By Dordledum on 08/31/2007 3:11 AM
Somebody explain to me why they just published the Fiendish Codexes last year?
D.
Because they have to release books to make $$$. Fool me once........ | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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yack
Commander
3321 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 08/31/2007 5:21 AM |
| | Wow the demons and demons are some of my favorite parts of D&D why all the facelifts this stinks! | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 08/31/2007 7:43 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/30/2007 6:27 PM
The loss of the erinyes is sad, but I understand it. Just think what the pice of the erinyes mini will do, thouh. No reprint, ever. That should drive the price up...
:( You're probably right. And I even don't have one... Duh.
| |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/31/2007 8:00 AM |
| I'm actually not against some changes, however there have been some constant in devil appearances over the years, for example the bone devil has a very characteristic appearance, likewise for the barbed devil and the pit fiend. If they are to move away from the distinguishing marks of these monsters to make them more humanoid... this is where i would be displeased (probably... perhaps i'll prefer the new appearance, who knows?). It also depends what they mean by "they'll be more humanoid in form". Is the 3.5 appearance of the pit fiend (either the MM drawing or the mini) considered to be humanoid in form? If so, why are they then mentioning that they devils will change to a more humanoid form? Are they referring to those devils that were issued in the MM 2-5?
What i do hope is that all humanoids-in-form ( :) ) are not necessarily super muscular for males and super sexy for females. I'd like to see some pit fiends or other devils with a nice big overweihgt for example (likewise for all minis as a matter of fact - giants, fighters, etc...).
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/31/2007 9:00 AM |
| | Look at the changes WotC made to the game itself from 2E to 3E. Given that, it should not surprise anyone that they are willing to fundamentally change Devils & Demons. I'm just glad they aren't going back to Baatezu and Tanarii. Ugh! | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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stephengroy
Underboss
1440 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 08/31/2007 9:00 AM |
| Lame lame lame! Think I'll just go all the way back to 1st Ed. | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13099 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/31/2007 9:01 AM |
| Posted By stephengroy on 08/31/2007 9:00 AM
Think I'll just go all the way back to 1st Ed.
Not a bad idea actually. I think it's time I pulled out my 1E books.
| |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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kyrin
Commander
3172 Posts
| | 08/31/2007 11:04 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/30/2007 1:37 PM
I'm not thrilled about the devil's change of appearance either, nor the exclusion of the erinyes.
Sky
Well, y'know, it's hard to pronounce and all. The kids wouldn't like it.
As a big fan of the Blood War and the Fiendish
Codices (and sad that there will apparently be none now for the 'loths)
I too am turned off by this announcement. Erinyes and Succubi are
two VERY different critters. Guess the horndog fanboys can't be
bothered to actually READ mythology. Huh huh... purty gurl demon
thingee...
Could 4E be the end of the Great Wheel Cosmology in general?
Even more reasons to wait for 4.5... when they change it all again...
JIM
aka kyrin
| |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/31/2007 11:04 AM |
| Yeah, i miss the 18/71 STR scores.
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 08/31/2007 4:28 PM |
| Wow... That is the first thing I've heard that I really really didn't like about the edition changes so far. I really really liked the devils and Demons the way they were... both codex's were great and "close enough" to the 2nd edition Book of the Nine Hells. Wow...
Erinyes and succubus change is horrid
Ice Devil change is interesting
Yugoloths get another cool piece however so that's nice...
Overall bad bad bad I say... for now... it could turn out better but bad bad bad for now... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 08/31/2007 4:59 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/31/2007 11:04 AM
Yeah, i miss the 18/71 STR scores.
LOL
Yeah, I gues I' receptive to it, but if they screw it up, obviously it'll stink. I just think some of the changes are lookig good. Mostly from a flavor persepctive.
Besides, if there's enough clamoring for erinyes return, they very well may. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Man of Renown
Wraithborne
Warlord
5309 Posts
The Red Light District
| | 08/31/2007 7:13 PM |
| The physical change is what bothers me the most, as it's the only part that will affect me financially. I would gladly buy 6-8 of most any devil/demon at a minimum, but if they change the way they look then I'm just not interested. I swear, a lot of this seems like they all sat down in a room and said, "OK guys, how can we possibly make this game less appealing to Jeremy?"
Thus far, the only thing I've read that I liked was that the dragon's fire breath caught the mage on fire. | |
Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card
-Jimgang
So, you stand at your grave, Has your soul yet been taken away?
So you can't read what's engraved, Is this Heaven or merely Decay?
Was there a light, enchantingly bright, A Question, just how did it end?
Just let me sift through your calm remains, And tear you away from your skin.
-Sumerias Fain. | |
|
Alamanther's comeback
Sneak
168 Posts
Denmark
| | 09/03/2007 3:36 AM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 08/30/2007 12:40 PM - Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
I'm not too sure I like this idea... For one thing, if devils are tied to the murder of a deity, what does this mean for their roles in campaigns with no deities? Is it a specific deity? What cosmology did that deity belong to? The numerous problematic issues tied to this new concept far outweigh the benefit of a half-baked backstory. | |
Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 09/03/2007 9:13 AM |
| If you have a campaign with no deity, then you are changing the basic format of the game anyways. D&D assumes campaign worlds with gods. You might as well change the backstory to something more appropriate in this case.
As for your other concerns, that's only a real problem if everything has to be explained. If you like a little mystery upon which possible adventures or campaigns could be based on, it's actually better this way. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/03/2007 11:32 AM |
| I'd kinda like to see a change to the Devils and Demons that a friend of mine did a while back in second edition. It was a game where the blood war started spilling out a bit into our world.... We started noticing some odd things, at times the Demons and Devils would be battling with each other; other times they'd be working side by side.
What it boiled down to was the Blood War was a massive scam to keep the various Celestial powers distracted. Kind of keep your eye on my right hand while the left does something else. Just what that was, we never found out. | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
|
Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/03/2007 4:12 PM |
| Posted By Alamanther's comeback on 09/03/2007 3:36 AM Posted By GuJiaXian on 08/30/2007 12:40 PM - Devils are angels who rebelled. They rose up against the deity they served and murdered him. The crime of deicide is unimaginably perverse for angels, and hence devils were cursed and imprisoned in the Nine Hells.
I'm not too sure I like this idea... For one thing, if devils are tied to the murder of a deity, what does this mean for their roles in campaigns with no deities? Is it a specific deity? What cosmology did that deity belong to? The numerous problematic issues tied to this new concept far outweigh the benefit of a half-baked backstory.
Perhaps they muredered all the deities... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 09/03/2007 8:08 PM |
| | The thing that bothers me, is that any campaigns you'd like to continue from 3.5 - may be completely inaccurate with the new edition. Something like "Hey member that time we snuck up and back stabbed Orcus?" "Yeh" "Wait, how'd we do that he's huge..." will become very common (yes, I know the example is absurd, that's not the point). I know it was hard enough transfering one campaign from 2nd ed to 3.5, without them changing the fluff - now... not so simple. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 09/03/2007 11:58 PM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/03/2007 8:08 PM
I know it was hard enough transfering one campaign from 2nd ed to 3.5, without them changing the fluff - now... not so simple.
That's my DM's problem. My campaign ended.
If it was still running though and I had inconsistency problems I would either not accept the change or explain it logically. For example:
Player: "Orcus is huge in 4th edition!"
Me: "No he isn't."
Player: "When we backstabbed Orcus he was only large - now he's huge!"
Me: "You mean the Demon you thought was Orcus was large."
See? Easy.
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Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 09/04/2007 5:56 AM |
| Yeh, but it becomes really tedious to transfer some things. Now, it's like "remember that demon succubus from that chaotic region where we battled all those demons..." "Whatchu talkin boot, succubii are from hell and are devils..." "Ok, well how bout that time we faced that devilish erinyes?..."
When the fluff starts changing it really messes with being able to just continue campaigns from one edition to another. And, yes, I do have players that will get very upset if something changes historically - it literally shatters the illusion/memmories created. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 09/04/2007 6:43 AM |
| There have been two things I've liked about demons and devils in D&D.
1) First edition.
2) Some of the minis.
All the Planescape stuff, all the 2nd edition PC crap, the Bloodwar, the pre-fiendish creatures (those that gave rise to the baatezu), the yugoloths as a race, etc., is stuff I haven't really liked.
I was comfy with demons are chaotic, devils are lawful, but, even that's fine to dismiss. The non-D&D, western-civilization precursors to all this stuff (i.e. mythology) doesn't always draw such distinctions, or draws other distinctions. I'm more than happy to get new ideas and new material.
I've run a homebrew campaign since 1987 anyway, and it's weathered all the edition changes. I don't see why a new edition will force my hand all that much. I've always had a 10th plane of Hell, ruled by Apollyon Azazel, a dude with enough moxie to push Asmodeus around (without mortals knowing about it--they all think there are only 9 levels of Hell). Those details will remain the same for me, regardless of the official changes.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 09/04/2007 8:20 AM |
| I guess I like some of the changes. I'll reserve full judgement until I see the full product, but this seems to make more logical sense, and seems to create a more realistic mythology based from Real-life mythology.
But again, it's all optional rules anyway, so take or dismiss what you like. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 09/04/2007 10:49 AM |
| | Uhm, my argument is not about whether devils are lawful and demons chaotic, it's about how much the fluff changes will effect currently running campaigns that are going to switch over... (just thought I'd point that out incase I was misunderstood). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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berus316
Sergeant
663 Posts
Markham, Ontario Canada
| | 09/04/2007 11:19 AM |
| | Making Asmodeus a god is a cool idea, I tend to think of demons and devils as the same anyways so more stuff to read is cool I'll use what I like and ignore the rest. If you don't like what WotC comes up with, use the old stuff I don't see what the problem is. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Gruumsh
Nemesis of Gnomes and Warforged
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