Posted By GuJiaXian on 06/09/2008 6:51 AM
 Heck, there are groups out there still playing the old Basic D&D and having a blast.

Posted By zenthrus on 06/09/2008 10:05 AM
If WotC called D&D 4.0 anything but D&D 4.0 it wouldn't be selling nearly as well (regardless of how well designed or poorly designed the rules system is).

For me D&D has always been collective fantasy storytelling. Characters doing epic things and facing off against intelligent villains. Can't say that the 'feel' of D&D has changed much from the Basic Game to 4.0. It's still the same core idea (i.e. collective fantasy storytelling).

Posted By Crisisman on 06/11/2008 11:33 AM
Good thread. The OP is very well stated. I'm very much feeling that D&D has lost it's position as the foundation of Fantasy RPG. They have, IMO, surrendered this to WoW and D&D is now relegated to the world of the imitators.

Sure, previous editions had some things gleaned from other games, but they were clearly built on the same founding game. That core has been dumped.

I think the penultimate evidence of this is the complete gutting of the Forgotten Realms. Scrapping the deepest, most compelling setting in D&D takes a LOT away from the game. Sure, there's a new FR, but the core of that is gone as well. Sure, Ed will keep the greatest of the iconics alive to carry forward some familiarity, but the world I've known for decades is done and gone. It's a shame.

I think it's a sad tolling of the bell for the entire roleplaying industry when a lot of people think World of Warcraft (a grinding simulation game that doesn't actually have any real roleplaying) is more of an "rpg" than Dungeons & Dragons, regardless of the rules set.

Posted By Crisisman on 06/11/2008 11:33 AM

I think the penultimate evidence of this is the complete gutting of the Forgotten Realms. Scrapping the deepest, most compelling setting in D&D takes a LOT away from the game. Sure, there's a new FR, but the core of that is gone as well. Sure, Ed will keep the greatest of the iconics alive to carry forward some familiarity, but the world I've known for decades is done and gone. It's a shame.

Posted By Puggins on 06/11/2008 3:13 PM


Good God Almighty, I'm getting friggin' tired of people bagging on WoW. I've been a D&D player for over twenty five years. I've been a WoW player since open beta.

WoW has exactly as much roleplaying in it as you, the player, choose to inject into your experience. Turn off the general channels, immerse yourself in the experience and you'll discover that the world is remarkably internally consistent. Storylines are followed and resolved well. The world is huge. the characters in the game are quite complex.

D&D, on the other hand, has.... exactly as much roleplaying in it as you, the player, choose to inject into your experience. :-P Design your character as an optimized set of numbers and you'll find your experience to be similar to many skirmish wargames. Stories need not be at all consistent. Opponents are merely a set of numbers and abilities to overcome- they have as little depth as your own character, and probably a lot less.

In other words, WoW and D&D have the same potential for roleplaying. What you get out of either depends entirely upon what you put in. WoW wouldn't exist without D&D. D&D 4e wouldn't be selling half as well as it does now had WoW not been released- yes, I Truly believe that WoW is driving some of 4e's sales, and I couldn't be happier. The synergy between the two is real, powerful and necessary if our hobby is to thrive in this modern wired society. Deal with it in a better way than anti-WoW Ludditism, please.

I have trouble believing that any computer game can adequately replicate what you get at a table top RPG

they seem like a hack and slash fest with a little chat included.

Posted By Puggins on 06/12/2008 11:02 AM



This is where we hit a snag. Interaction between players is certainly a type of roleplaying, but it's hardly the only one. Roleplaying is assuming the persona of a character different than your own- that doesn't require interaction with other people if the game itself provides a good setting for doing so. My troll wizard objects to the Forsaken's flippant attitude towards life, for example, and usually refuses to aid them (ie, avoids quests offered by forsaken). He's very sympathetic towards Tauren interests, though, and will go out of his way to assist Thunderbluff in advancing its agenda. While I'm playing, I try to act like I think my wizard would act- I avoid wild creatures (beasts and vermin), but very cheerfully crush any demons, undead or evil humanoids I come across. I find my usual roleplaying experience in WoW to be quite rewarding, which is why I keep coming back for more.

Posted By greyhaze on 06/12/2008 11:30 AM
Puggins, I think you're a very unique player. I've played WoW, for around 6 months, and role-playing is not what I would describe that experience as.

Also, what you seem to be describing is a very one sided view of role-playing, no one is taking note unless they really observe you, or you spell it out for them, and then they happily return to their harvesting.

Posted By Crisisman on 06/11/2008 11:33 AM
Good thread. The OP is very well stated. I'm very much feeling that D&D has lost it's position as the foundation of Fantasy RPG. They have, IMO, surrendered this to WoW and D&D is now relegated to the world of the imitators.

Posted By Ssylyss on 06/12/2008 12:33 PM

Posted By berus316 on 06/09/2008 10:16 AM

I agree 100%.

d20
STR
INT
WIS
DEX
CON
CHA
HPs

monsters to kill, people to save, orcs, dragons and wizards.  DnD.  Throw in some pizza and the odd TPK and we're all good.

Posted By Shottglazz on 06/12/2008 8:18 AM
Note: this is not a comment on the validity of anyone else’s opinion. This is based entirely on the author’s first-hand experience with MMO’s.

Regardless of whether I like 4e or not, I agree with GuJiaXian...MMORPG's aren't the digital equivalent of role-playing...they're a hack-n-slash, get item A to get item B to get XP/lvl/loot experience...ppl calling for a tank, asking for a port, or selling the latest-n-greatest uber loot isn't role-playing... also many many types of items exist, thousands of stupidities designed just to put some "story" into repeated monster killing.

Posted By greyhaze on 06/12/2008 8:34 PM
No, there is a new game called 4e though.

Posted By greyhaze on 06/12/2008 8:34 PM
No, there is a new game called 4e though.

Posted By Username on 06/12/2008 1:34 PM


Amen!

Posted By greyhaze on 06/12/2008 8:34 PM
No, there is a new game called 4e though.

Posted By Ghendar on 06/13/2008 9:07 AM

All I can say is that maybe in the future, some new version of D&D will come along and make you guys say something along the lines of, "wtf is this crap? They changed too much. It's not D&D anymore". Until that day arrives, if it ever does, you probably won't understand how folks like me feel about 4e.

If the above sounded condescending, I didn't mean to sound that way.