Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5101 Posts
    
SLC, UT
 | | 02/27/2006 11:05 PM |
| | I'm becoming a solid fan of buying by the case. After my little Archfiends incident (essentially all of the highly desired rares except Lolth) I decided to plunk down the cash for a case of Deathknell (largely because at the time not a single beholder was available on ebay). Got my case today. Beholder, Couatl, Ettin, Griffon. Everything else was icing on the already sweet cake (except the Valorous Prince and the Ambush Drake....[:(]). | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:26 PM |
| | Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5101 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/27/2006 11:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust.
Fortunately no Champ of Yondalla [:D] The Beholder and Couatl kept me from throwing my case out the window in disgust [:D]
Valorous Prince just reinforces my argument that there should only be two of each PHB Core Race and two warforged per set (only uses 16 slots out of 60 and gets rid of temptations to throw in Valorous Prince rares). It could have at least had a decent paintjob [:(]
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:34 PM |
| First Deathknell booster I ever opened was a beholder. I thought woo hoo! finally good luck. It was the first and last beholder I ever got from 3 cases and how ever many boosters I randomly bought on impulse.
Strange thing I never pulled a Valorous prince and had to buy one from my FLGS to complete my set. Only cost me 4 dollars thats the one advantage of a 'valueless rare'.
In every set I usually fail to pull a rare that becomes the one of the most valuable and the rare that nobody else wants.
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/27/2006 11:37 PM |
| | You are a very lucky man, and I agree with you both on those two rares and others such as the Phoelarch, Alusayr Obarsky, Fire Genasi Dervish, Skullsplitter,etc. Many of these could have been commons and oddly enough they also raise in prices, just because of the other rares in their respective sets... [xx(] | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust.
Fortunately no Champ of Yondalla [:D] The Beholder and Couatl kept me from throwing my case out the window in disgust [:D]
Valorous Prince just reinforces my argument that there should only be two of each PHB Core Race and two warforged per set (only uses 16 slots out of 60 and gets rid of temptations to throw in Valorous Prince rares). It could have at least had a decent paintjob [:(]
It would have been better if it had decent equipment. Giving a character a bunch of the items from the Miniatures Handbook wasn't really a well-considered decision. If you're going to pull the rich boy with gear move, make sure the gear is really worthwhile! A bunch of weird minor abilities doesn't really make for a successful piece, especially one that screams "easy target," like the Prince. AC 21 and 55 hp isn't much in today's game. (and from an RPG perspective, I still haven't created a "fop" prince this character concept so richly deserves. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5101 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/28/2006 2:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
It would have been better if it had decent equipment. Giving a character a bunch of the items from the Miniatures Handbook wasn't really a well-considered decision. If you're going to pull the rich boy with gear move, make sure the gear is really worthwhile! A bunch of weird minor abilities doesn't really make for a successful piece, especially one that screams "easy target," like the Prince. AC 21 and 55 hp isn't much in today's game. (and from an RPG perspective, I still haven't created a "fop" prince this character concept so richly deserves.
That sums up the prince. I'm always disheartened by human sculpts dropping into rare slots (and 10 times as disheartened when they're worthless for skirmish) [:(]
The Valorous Prince is begging for a paintjob to match the Evermeet Wizard. Then Ken and Barbie could go party [:D] | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 5:39 AM |
| I disagree
I would much rather see the Val Prince as a rare then an Uncommon or Common. Why would anyone want more then one.
If he was a Common I would heve 16-20. What the hell would I do with 16-20 Val Prince.
I think rare is the perfect slot for specfic humans. The best monsters should be uncommon, and horde types(goblins,soilders) common.
I find they are getting better with this. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12463 Posts
The G Spot
| | 02/28/2006 6:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust.
You can say this about every set. Add to the list many more. Dromite Wilder, Phoelarch, Mina, etc, etc, etc.
I really wish all rares were either skirmish useful and/or RPG useful. If neither of these are true then don't make the damn thing a rare. Period! | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 7:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I really wish all rares were either skirmish useful and/or RPG useful. If neither of these are true then don't make the damn thing a rare.
Or...at all | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/28/2006 7:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust.
You can say this about every set. Add to the list many more. Dromite Wilder, Phoelarch, Mina, etc, etc, etc.
I really wish all rares were either skirmish useful and/or RPG useful. If neither of these are true then don't make the damn thing a rare. Period!
I would say don't make 'em. Period. If however they are goung to make them, I agree with orcdoubleax, for his stated reasons. | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
12463 Posts
The G Spot
| | 02/28/2006 9:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vash
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I really wish all rares were either skirmish useful and/or RPG useful. If neither of these are true then don't make the damn thing a rare.
Or...at all
An even better idea. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
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G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
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wolfsbane114
Warrior
327 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 10:02 AM |
| quote:
I would much rather see the Val Prince as a rare then an Uncommon or Common. Why would anyone want more then one.
If he was a Common I would heve 16-20. What the hell would I do with 16-20 Val Prince.
I agree if they had made Val prince a common then this thread would be about how horrible it is to pull 12 val princes in a case.
I personally have no probelm with them making figs I ain't gonna use as rares. Where as I still havent been able to get my hands on a beholder I'm pretty sure I would use it.
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 11:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wolfsbane114
[quote]I would much rather see the Val Prince as a rare then an Uncommon or Common. Why would anyone want more then one.
Precisely. Before complaining about Crap Figure X being rare you really need to sak yourself "do I want 12 copies of Crap Figure X". If anything I think there should be more crap rares, not less. Relegate the clunkers to rare status and flood the uncommon and common slots with the decent figures cos then you get fewer copies of the junk you don't want and mroe copies of the good figures you do want.
Seems like common sense to me. | |
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Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 11:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
quote:
Originally posted by wolfsbane114
[quote]I would much rather see the Val Prince as a rare then an Uncommon or Common. Why would anyone want more then one.
Precisely. Before complaining about Crap Figure X being rare you really need to sak yourself "do I want 12 copies of Crap Figure X". If anything I think there should be more crap rares, not less. Relegate the clunkers to rare status and flood the uncommon and common slots with the decent figures cos then you get fewer copies of the junk you don't want and mroe copies of the good figures you do want.
Seems like common sense to me.
QFT. The rare slot is in fact the best spot for niche PC/PrC/monster sculpts, because you're saddled with fewer of them. I've never pulled a VPrince, but I'm glad I purchased my 1 from Auggies -- getting a bunch in my DK case would have been not so cool. I also really like Ambush Drakes, and wish I had 5 not 3. So there. :P | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
quote:
Originally posted by wolfsbane114
[quote]I would much rather see the Val Prince as a rare then an Uncommon or Common. Why would anyone want more then one.
Precisely. Before complaining about Crap Figure X being rare you really need to sak yourself "do I want 12 copies of Crap Figure X". If anything I think there should be more crap rares, not less. Relegate the clunkers to rare status and flood the uncommon and common slots with the decent figures cos then you get fewer copies of the junk you don't want and mroe copies of the good figures you do want.
Seems like common sense to me.
And perfect common sence at that.
However from a second perspective, I can't stand "Crap Figure X" taking up a valuable Rare slot. When I open a booster hoping to pull a Balor, Beholder or Dragon and out falls a Valorous Prince, Pheolarch or Mina I just about want to throw my booster out the window and run over it a few times with my car. As usless as they are are Rares, yes I agree that they are even more usless as Uncommons/Commons. However after I've gotten my case(s) and have four+ of each common; if I were to pull my fifth Valorous Prince Common, It wouldn't bother me nearly as much as pulling my third Valorous Prince Rare.
Theres gotta be a happy medium between these two viewpoints somewhere..... | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 02/28/2006 11:52 AM |
| I'll step into the "I think lame minis should be rare" camp with Sulaco.
If an Orc Wrdrummer was Uncommon..Id get the 1 or 2 I wanted and then get another 3 or 4 I couldnt trade away for anything.
As a rare Ill get the one or two I want and if Im unfortunate enough to get a 3rd or 4th I'll trade them away. Rares are easy to trade away unless your unresonable and want a good rare for them.
As far as "dont make one at all". Thats not cool unless is SUPER crap. Id like at least Noble or Royal NPC mini (Valorus Prince), female Halfling Paladin (Champ of Yondalla), and at least one Dromite if I were to ever want to try out one of the funky races that appear in the Psionics Handbook (Dromite Wilder).
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Almalik
Warrior
266 Posts
Vancouver-ish, Canada
| | 02/28/2006 11:53 AM |
| The problem with putting figures like the Prince in the rare slot, is that it is human nature to open your booster and be annoyed that you pulled it as your rare rather than a beholder. When you open a booster you are most interested in seeing what the rare figure is, because those are generally the most sought after figures. If it was in the common or uncommon slot, it isn't a big deal if you get several because it is quite likely that you have several of all the other figures in that slot.
I don't care if I have multiples of 'unusable' figures if they are uncommon or common. If I really need more of a particular u/c then they are easy enough to trade for or pick up as singles. When you get the valorous prince you are kind of screwed, because nobody (or very few people) are you going to trade you another rare for it, so that is one more rare you are going to have to track down on eBay or wherever. | |
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yack
Commander
3270 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 02/28/2006 11:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
I'll step into the "I think lame minis should be rare" camp with Sulaco.
If an Orc Wrdrummer was Uncommon..Id get the 1 or 2 I wanted and then get another 3 or 4 I couldnt trade away for anything.
As a rare Ill get the one or two I want and if Im unfortunate enough to get a 3rd or 4th I'll trade them away. Rares are easy to trade away unless your unresonable and want a good rare for them.
As far as "dont make one at all". Thats not cool unless is SUPER crap. Id like at least Noble or Royal NPC mini (Valorus Prince), female Halfling Paladin (Champ of Yondalla), and at least one Dromite if I were to ever want to try out one of the funky races that appear in the Psionics Handbook (Dromite Wilder).
I agree with you guys crap minis should be rare. One that you want more then one shouldn't. | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 12:29 PM |
| Just pair the crap rare with the woo-hoo uncommon.
I can dare to dream, can't I? [:p] | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 12:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by forkedmoon
Just pair the crap rare with the woo-hoo uncommon.
I can dare to dream, can't I? [:p]
Which is what I usually do. When I open that booster of Underdark and out pops my duplicate (notice I said duplicate, nothing wrong with one) Slayer of Domiel or Dromite Wilder I usually always think to myself: "Well at least I got an Ankheg, Loyal Earth Elemental, a few Royal Guards, and a Xorn." That usually makes me feel a BIT better about the money I just wasted [:p] | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:33 PM |
| Wow, I'm stunned that there are folks out there that are championing the idea of adding more crap rares - not to belittle your opinion, as there's plenty of room for all. Just because the idea is so foreign to me.
I'm a buy a case for the bulk savings, then buy impulse boosters type of guy. So for me, once I have my case, the Commons and to a lesser extent Uncommons that I may pull in the booster pale in comparison to the rare. If I buy a booster and get something crappy in the rare slot, I feel like my money was wasted despite what I may get in the common and uncommon slots.
So, I agree wholeheartedly with Ghendar and others that EVERY rare should be valuable either to skirmish or RPG, or both.
As an aside, it looks like they've done a much better job of this with WarDrums than many previous sets. There's only a few that I'd feel "cheated" if I pulled from a booster. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:39 PM |
| I never said crap rares, but something like the VP is only useful as a single. Any mini that you only want one of should be rare. minis that you want 3-4 of should be uncommon and the commons should be something useful in large numbers.
As far a I am concerned commons are the most important slot. | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:59 PM |
|
For a case buyer, that might be the case, but for an impulse booster buyer, I don't think so.
Rares are the "big ticket" items in a booster, and I think should be treated as such. I'd rather see better, cooler rares with the occasional stinker (like the Valorous Prince) as an uncommon. I know that every Phoelarch I pulled (5!) irritated me to no end, but I barely noticed each Dolgaunt Monk, Spiker Champion, Talenta Halfling, Forest Troll or any of another dozen meh uncommons.
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Yep. The Valorous Prince did me in. That really was a mini that should have never been a rare. It's not in tier anything, but it got made into a rare. A real let down. Tack on the Champion of Yondalla, and I was ready to throw my case of DK out the window in pure disgust.
Wish I was under your window at that moment [:D] | |
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Sacred Lye
Warrior
184 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
For a case buyer, that might be the case, but for an impulse booster buyer, I don't think so.
Rares are the "big ticket" items in a booster, and I think should be treated as such. I'd rather see better, cooler rares with the occasional stinker (like the Valorous Prince) as an uncommon. I know that every Phoelarch I pulled (5!) irritated me to no end, but I barely noticed each Dolgaunt Monk, Spiker Champion, Talenta Halfling, Forest Troll or any of another dozen meh uncommons.
I Like the Talenta 1/2ling and Forest Troll. They were good RPG and decent 12 fig skirmish figs.
Aside from that I think you have to have "Some" poopy rares as well as some great rares. This applies as well to common and uncommon figs. It has got to be balanced. The most important thing to me is if the figure is usable in EITHER a RPG sense or Skirmish sense. If the figure does not fill one or both of those functions, then I only need one so I have a complete set.
Sacred | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/28/2006 2:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
I never said crap rares, but something like the VP is only useful as a single. Any mini that you only want one of should be rare. minis that you want 3-4 of should be uncommon and the commons should be something useful in large numbers.
As far a I am concerned commons are the most important slot.
For me the most important slot is the large uncommons. | |
In the constellation of
Cygnus, there lurks a
mysterious, invisible
force:
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:34 PM |
| Honestly, there is no good answer to any of these questions. As someone who does RPG, collects to finish sets AND skirmishes now and then, I know there is no perfect answer for this at all. As the count said, RPG people want things like just one prince or dromite wilder. But like others have said, when you purchase a single booster and that one rare you get is useles and you already have tons of the commons/uncommons, a lot of the point in buying that booster is gone.
I think we need to just agree here there is no good answer that will make everyone happy. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 3:10 PM |
| Yet despite the fact that things like uniques and non-combatants generally suck, people continue to ask for character X from their favorite setting and for a bunch of NPC's like tavern keepers and barmaids. If you think the Valorous Putz is terrible, just wait until we get an uncommon tavern drunk.
The designers are stuck between people demanding Dragonlance characters and those who are upset that we have four setting specific minis (warforged) in a single set. And when I say setting specific, I mean "can't easily be used in another setting". The Inspired and Karnathi Zombie can easily be used in another setting.
And while some new creatures are simply horrendous (WTF, I'm looking at you) some are great for roleplaying and skirmish. (Justice Archon.)
So I think Maxminis should do some polling. Do we really want non-combatants or don't we? Do we really want setting specific minis? And if so how many per set? | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 3:30 PM |
| Interesting discussion.
IMO, rares should be figures that are desireable as singles from an RPG and/or skirmish perspective. The key is making them both desireable and things you'd only want 1 of. High level monsters (Balor), iconic badguys (Warduke), iconic characters (Drizzt), solitary monsters (Grey Render), etc. all make great choices for rares.
Rares should be valuable to either the RPG or skirmish crowd or both. If not, well then why is it taking a rare slot?
Things that are encountered in groups in RPG (for instance giants) really need to be made as uncommons. It sounds like the design team is starting to understand this (uncommon trolls, ogres, hill giants, etc.). Same may be true for skirmish: things like the Chraal make great uncommons for that reason.
The Valorous Prince would have been a fine figure as an uncommon. Yes, we would have ended up with several more of them then we need, but it wouldn't have mattered in the end. There's nothing that stops me from buying more boosters like pulling another Adventuring Wizard, Skullsplitter, or Mina.
quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
So I think Maxminis should do some polling. Do we really want non-combatants or don't we? Do we really want setting specific minis? And if so how many per set?
My opinion:
Non-combatants: very few as in 1-2 per year max.
Setting Specific: just a few; as in 5 or so per set. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5101 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/28/2006 5:25 PM |
| Look what happens when I gloat about my luck [:O]
I referenced the Valorous Prince as a disappointment because he's not viable in skirmish and does not have a paintjob that indicates "rare." If a rare slot is going to be taken up by a PHB core race sculpt it either needs to be a great sculpt (cleric of Bane), be an iconic/unique (Elminster), or be a skirmish powerhouse/RPG PrC (Archmage/Frenzied Berserker). Had the Valorous Prince been a campaign specific noble, been a welcome addition to skirmish, or been aesthetically pleasing I would find no fault. As is....[:(]
Of course I'm biased against PHB races. It's nice to get a healthy number of orcs, goblins, beholders [)], etc. but PC races aren't that big of a draw for me. I think that the inclusion of 2 of each (+2 warforged) per set would be perfect especially with a focus on more variety in the sculpts. Still leaves 44 slots for monsters. No more devotion of 8 slots to humans (i.e. Underdark Yay! [:D]
We already have around 80 humans and only 4 gnomes [:(] (not counting WD)
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