Thokk
Warrior
321 Posts
    
 | | 03/10/2006 11:25 AM |
| | I have been giving this some thought when we set up tournaments at the FLGS. We have been getting more new people in and with older pieces becoming prohibitively expensive it makes it difficult if not impossible to assemble a true Tier 1 band. One of the things we are trying in 2 weeks is a 'last 4 sets only' 200 pt. This makes it easier for the newer players to be competitive and not feel they have to drop 50+ dollars on an Orc Champion or Large Silver Dragon. In the full competitive scheme, I think it would make sense to have a split like they have (had? been a looong time) in Magic. Have one format where EVERY figure is legal. Have another one where only the last 3 or 4 sets are legal. This gives the old timers a way to play all of their old collection and at the same time makes it so that newer players can compete. It also would help WOTC sales since they don't make any profit on the aforementiond high priced 2nd market rares only new booster/starter sales. Thoughts?? | |
Good judgement comes from wisdom. Wisdom comes from bad judgement.
Member Team ROH
Qwijoma on Wizards Boards | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:28 AM |
| | The difference between DDM and MTG is that older minis aren't necessarily more powerful than new ones, and aren't required in a Tier 1 warband; I am thus opposed to the Type 1/Type 2 split (even though I do not participate in tournaments). | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:31 AM |
| | No. The correct time for such a split is half-past never. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:33 AM |
| | While sometime in the future, it might make sense to do this, I don't think the time is right now. While the number of people playing DDM is growing, there is still no where near the number of people who play magic, thus I don't think there would be enough players to support it. Additionally while, there are definitely some good old pieces, there are also a lot of new ones that are tier one. So a new player might not be able to make an orc beater band without shelling out large amounts of cash, but they have plenty of other options that are just as competitive. | |
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Champion of the Commoner Mob Leader | |
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Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
No. The correct time for such a split is half-past never.
Agreed. And I said no in the thread at the WotC boards too. | | | |
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Ragnarok
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:40 AM |
| breeds better unbroken figures or getting rid of figs that became crap
look at the Gith Monk/Whirling Steel Monk issue
why in the heck would you ever use a Whirling Steel Monk?
I will say that I want to from time to time play with all the figs I have but I dont own every fig, didnt start playing until Aberrations pretty much, and I'm not completely attached to the old top figures anyways | |
P.I.M.P. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:43 AM |
| Well WotC has already stated that they don't plan to do set rotation of any kind. At least not by changing formats and banning/restricting in any form (sans Drider of course). They have however made a bit of a power creep making older figures less efficient. Take a look at the current metagame and you'll see that the figures that were tier 1 tournament winners last year or the year before are not the top winners now. So essentially I don't think it's necessary to make a type I/type II setup because with each set there are newer figures that generally outweigh the older ones is effectiveness. In an 8 figure game you can't exactly put whatever you want into it and the most efficient figures are going to be the ones used. It's just that simple.
R~ | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 03/10/2006 11:43 AM |
| | I see no compelling reason to apply any official restrictions. Competitive warbands can be created without using "vintage" minis. Locally, you should feel free to do whatever you think is best given your environment. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:47 AM |
| The only faction for which Tier 1 really means older figures in CE. Players can compete head to head and expect to with with warbands of newer figures from the other 3 factions (CG has a though time in general being competitive though...).
No need for a split, no need for bannings.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1066 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:53 AM |
| | I agree power creep has made it unnecessary. | |
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Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 03/10/2006 11:54 AM |
| Basically they have done a pretty good job of making older minis largely "tournament unworthy." In LE and LG this is powercreep, but CG just had some costing problems early on. However, I think the game is at a pretty good place right now. The only early figures you really need are CE, and you can get away with Red Samurai and Tiefling Captains in most cases, which are both uncommons. Even the Eye of Grummsh is only like $10, and very spiffy from a skirmish perspective. The other factions only have one or two other critters that you'll want. LE still gets alot of use out of the Human Blackguard and Urthok, but niether are essential, and CG does like the elf pyromancer and inspiring marshall. The IM is still pretty cheap, but the pyro is quite pricy, so valid point there. LG uses nearly nothing from pre-aberrations skirmish. Champion of yondalla finds his way into a few warbands, but that's just about it.
LSD has fallen out of favor in a big way in the current metagame, and the Orc champ, though still potent, is still largely replaceable by at least three cheaper creatures (Eye of Gruumsh, Red Samurai, and Ogre ravager).
Type 2 is a bad idea at this point. | |
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Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 11:54 AM |
| | There's no need for it. Although it is hard for people to get older figures at a reasonable price theose peices don't nessecerally mean a win. | |
Champion of the Tohr-Kreen.
WotDQ Called Shot: Fang Dragon. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:01 PM |
| | I dont see a need for a type 1/type 2 split either. In fact I think it would hurt the game by dividing the players. None of the old pieces is absolutely critical to having a successful warband. Competitive bands can be played using just the more recent figures. While I do believe it is VERY helpful to have all of the figures to make the most efficient choices, it is not necessary. | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
The only faction for which Tier 1 really means older figures in CE. Players can compete head to head and expect to with with warbands of newer figures from the other 3 factions (CG has a though time in general being competitive though...).
No need for a split, no need for bannings.
Pat E
I think this pretty much sums it up. I would only add that WotC is doing a good job of introcuding new figures which don't replace the elite, older ones, but fill much the same role. New players can compete just fine with players who have figures from discontinued sets. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:08 PM |
| Hell NO!
WoTC has stated that they *WILL* *NOT* implement set rotation (aka type1/2), and that the intent is to print similiar pieces in new sets, so that it will always be possible for new players to build competitive warbands, even if they don't have access to old pieces.
I think they are doing a wonderful job with this plan.
Type 1/Type 2 'worked' in MTG. However the split dang near killed that game, as it has most others. The only reason to implement a Type 1/Type 2 split is if [R&D] made significant, and numerous design errors in the first sets that would kill the game if they stayed around. That was the case in MTG, but IS NOT the case in DDM.
DDM is a collectible strategy game. There are only a few pieces from older sets that are key to specific warbands. If you play competitively you can easily pick those pieces up over time, some of them aren't even all that expensive. Note I said specific warbands, I didn't say all, or true tier 1. As for the collectible aspect, collectors would scream bloody murder if over half of their collection was devalued.
I would quit this game if we even got a hint from [R&D] that they were considering set rotation. As it is I'm considering quitting if [R&D] doesn't get set rotations poor cousin power creep in check. | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:13 PM |
| I find it strange the intense negativity for this topic. I played MTG from the beginning and hated when they went Type1/2/classic etc. I hated the fact that they did that only because they gave up on the "older" styles and almost exclusively went with Type2 (newest rotation). That meant you had to buy all of the new cards over and over each rotation. They almost never played type 1 or 1.5.
With DDM I think it would be a very nice "OPTION" to have. Why can't wizard make a formal play type where you can play the newest rotation only? So long as they don't do what they did with the other play options and abandon them. Diversity is good for the game. Hell we do it all the time right here on Maxmini's and no one complains.
Just one person's 2cents.
Drax
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Have/Want List:
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12463 Posts
The G Spot
| | 03/10/2006 12:18 PM |
| I've thought of this as well, but I think it's unnecessary.
And comparisons to M:tG are really unfair because Magic and DDM are two entirely different animals. What works for one doesn't always work for the other.
On the other hand, could a format where you only use the last three (or four) sets be fun? yes it could. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
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Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:29 PM |
| | I would have to say, no to a splitting and no to any more banning. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:33 PM |
| | no no no no. Please, leave it how it is, its just fine. Lots of new figures are still competitive and its only getting better. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:38 PM |
| In a kinda of way, all sealed events are "Type 2" modified events using only the vintage minis in the boosters.
I don't think the volume of players would support robust play at multiple divisions, and that would be a big negative. What is probably happening is a few individuals have a desire to play certain warbands, and those warbands are based on older minis which are harder to come by. No need to fix the whole world.
It would be quite interesting to have some local tournements where the warbands were restricted to certain series only.
Lets see, the "A" series (Archfiends, Aberrations and Angelfire!)
Lets see, the "D" series (Dragoneye, under Dark, war Drums)
or any other variant that could raise enough interest to get players.
I know my gaming group has always loved tinkering with games. We worked out a whole of movment rules for the game TITAN using dice other than a D6. Made for some VERY different dynamics and value choices. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 03/10/2006 12:39 PM |
| Such a split is tantamount to cyclic set rotation, for tournament play. And WotC have said they don't want to do that. So WTF is one FLGS trying to start that via a "back-door".?
Besides, tier-1 bands these days don't need older/expensive figures.
CG; Wemic/Warforged barbarian are both closely comparable, substitutes for the FB.
LG; mostly uses Marut/Sacred Watcher, both rescent.
LE; uses only a couple of uncommons prior to angelfire. (Kobold sorcerer or Dark moon monk)
CE; Not sure there is a CE tier-1 warband these days. But if there is, it doesn't use the expensive Orc Chump+EOG combo.
So, since when was a Kobold sorcerer "prohibitively expensive" for new players [:o)]
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 12:54 PM |
| Anyone can do whatever they want, as long as it isn't DCI sanctioned.
I'm all for fun games, but when one talks of DCI sanctioned set rotation/ type 1 / type 2 my blood boils. | |
My online store http://store.hoardsters.com
Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 1:02 PM |
| Geez, for some of us we had to go the other direction and ban newer figures so we could actually use some of our older figures. There are only a few figures from the older sets that are still top pieces and an awful lot that are now all but useless in skirmish.
For those who played in the vintage tournament how many pieces did you pull that are going to be used in competitive warbands?
Right now I buy quite a bit of the new sets but there will come a time when I just have too much and don't want to have to spend a lot. I tried Magic but quit when every new release made some of the older cards I had unusable. Too much money to play. Couldn't afford to buy the truly great older cards for playing in the everything legal matches and couldn't afford to buy all the new stuff for the last few sets tournaments either.
Keep giving us cool new minis and we will keep buying them but don't make me buy them to keep playing or my DDM days will be in the past like Magic. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 1:40 PM |
| As stated, other than CE you can totally make new bands that are 100% competitive with just figures Deathknell+.
Even with CE there might be options with a base build using
HGB
Quaggoth Slaves
Wardrummer | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/10/2006 1:43 PM |
| I agree that a split is not necessary ...
However, I disagree that you need old CE figures to compete in CE. I think there are a few competitive CE builds that can be built by using only in print figures ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 03/10/2006 2:20 PM |
| no, thank you.
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 03/10/2006 3:57 PM |
| | As soon as this happens I think I'll review my involvement in gaming altogether. | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 4:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
I sure hope not.
Its all fine for occasional casual play (we did it at our store, and it was interesting), but not for tournament play. No, No, No and more No.
No one seems to have mentioned the main reason we don't need a formal split into Type 1 and Type 2:
TOs with willing player bases can do this type of split informally. At my local venues, we were using 8 figs and maps for our sanctioned tourneys since GenCon 05. We could do this because we had a core group of regulars who wanted to do things that way.
If you have a group of players who want to play Type 2, organize some tournaments that only "allow" newer pieces. Of course, the only way to enforce this restriction (because it's not in the floor rules) is by mutual agreement / peer pressure. Have some normal unrestricted tournaments as well and then everyone can be happy.
Getting mutual agreement is usually a better way of organizing things than top down centralized "orders", so give it a try.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 4:46 PM |
| | NO | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5101 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/10/2006 5:09 PM |
| Type1/Type2 cyclic rotation is a big No-No [V]
The design team has done a remarkable job of implementing new minis into each set that are comparable (albeit different) than their predecessors. As has already been remarked the majority of Tier 1 warbands aren't heavily laden with expensive OOP minis. Older sets saw their costs based on 100/200 point skirmish play and were conservatively costed in most cases. Newer sets are based on 200/500 point play and consquently tend to overall be slightly more efficient than the older sets. Sure some key minis (LSD, Orc Champ)are expensive. They also only represent one of a variety of highly competetive warband options.
Set rotation doesn't level the playing field (DDM unlike MtG doesn't have any truly broken pieces); it merely punishes players who own older minis (by banning those minis from competetive play).
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
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muselindeman
Sneak
133 Posts
USA
| | 03/10/2006 5:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ilarue
While sometime in the future, it might make sense to do this, I don't think the time is right now. While the number of people playing DDM is growing, there is still no where near the number of people who play magic, thus I don't think there would be enough players to support it. Additionally while, there are definitely some good old pieces, there are also a lot of new ones that are tier one. So a new player might not be able to make an orc beater band without shelling out large amounts of cash, but they have plenty of other options that are just as competitive.
My thoughts exactly. | |
Larry Lindeman
trade refrences: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12442 | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 03/10/2006 5:15 PM |
| | Well i´m against Type spliting because i don´t like that separation, that was one of the thing that makes me quit to MTG. This separates groups of players and there is no real competition because newest people evade to play with old ones. I think that new minis are pretty competitive against old ones inclusive some are far better (uncommons now are really better than many old rares) I think that this game was done with the MTG experience to keep most miniatures always valid for legal game, there is few bannings in magic each set has many banned cards, making them useless in time. | |
Knight of the Quori
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:18 PM |
| There's no need to do it in DDM, but statements that 'it almost killed Magic' are silly. The growth in MtG at the time of the split was so exponential that we barely noticed the few bitter dropouts.
DDM doesn't have that kind of player population growth, so it would hurt more here, but it doesn't really matter much, as we don't need it.
Heck, you can build an absolutely tier 1 LE band with just pieces from Underdark. (You get more options if you include Angelfire and War Drums, of course.) | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:30 PM |
| HELL NO.
If they do it again (they screwed me over with the M:tG split), I'm out again -- and would seriously consider not purchasing WotC products ever again.
(IanB, I beg to differ. Yes, Magic survived, but more people left than many people seem to realize -- or admit. Of course new players kept it going, as they would with DDM. But there are lots of us who are bitter.) | |
My H/W list is not current...
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/10/2006 5:48 PM |
| I certainly do not think a Type II/Type I split is necessary. However, I think a defined 'Type II' tournament would be a nice addition to the game, as long as it did not overtake Type I as the dominant tournament type.
The game does change when you outlaw older figures. Those changes are not necessary to preserve a balanced playing field between new and old players, but those changes could create interesting variety in the way the game is played.
Let's pretend that a Type II tourney were created today, and that every set prior to Aberrations was going to be outlawed in these Type II events. How would warband construction change when you know that LSDs, Gauths, Orc Champions, Red Samuraui, Eyes of Gruumsh, Inspiring Marshalls, etc ... are not going to appear. It would be quite different ... and quite fun to explore.
The challenges in building in these environemtns would be similar to the challenges you'd find in building a warband for plunder, cave of pain or any of the other alternative formats that have been a part of triad tourneys. The rules of what you can expect to see change drastically ... and the balance of power shifts for each figure. I think that getting a chance to build under these rules would be fun - as long as it was never given the importance that Type I enjoys ... | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Let's pretend that a Type II tourney were created today, and that every set prior to Aberrations was going to be outlawed in these Type II events. How would warband construction change when you know that LSDs, Gauths, Orc Champions, Red Samuraui, Eyes of Gruumsh, Inspiring Marshalls, etc ... are not going to appear. It would be quite different ... and quite fun to explore.
Sounds like an excellent thing to explore unofficially, on your own time with your local players. | |
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