Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
    
 | | 08/18/2005 11:54 PM |
| | recovered topic 7537 | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 08/18/2005 11:54 PM |
| | I prefer Bifur's warband generator. It's an access database though so you need office. | |
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TKort
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 12:42 AM |
| Forgive me if I misunderstand your message, but it almost sounds to me like you don't even have any mini's yet :). Officially you should really just be using Vassal as a way to play the minis you already have online. Technically you can play without, but in my personal opinion the game is a lot more fun person to person, with real miniatures. Vassal is great because you can play unlimited different people from all over, but there is no substitute for the real thing, unless you're geekaphobic.... :)
Tkort.
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 08/19/2005 12:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Richard II
I prefer Bifur's warband generator. It's an access database though so you need office.
Latest version of Bifur here:
http://www.youradnd.co.uk/DDM/DDMInfo.htm
Top left link on this page. Requires MicroSoft Access to use. Try each and use what you like best.
You need to actually own the minis to legally use Vassal to play games. I am sure if you try it out, to see if you like it, and then go buy minis, everyone wins that way ΖD]
Speaking of owning minis, WHO WILL TRADE ME A HEZROU!? | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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Trent DePonte
Skirmisher
2 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 2:22 PM |
| | Well once the govt finally eliminates people downloading free music they will start coming after people playing free online games. Until then I wont worry. I simply cant afford to buy the game in real life. Not enough of it to be competitive against other people at the shop. Anyway I dont have Access so I guess I am stuck with the WotC generator. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1684 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 2:40 PM |
| So far, I've been using KBales' warband generator.
It's in spreadsheet format so it's a little more accessible, and so far it's been meeting my needs. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 2:54 PM |
| You just don't know all that you need yet ... but soon, you will ...
[)] | | | |
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Craw
Sneak
74 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 3:18 PM |
| | There is no legal requirement that you have minis to play on vassal. It is an ethical issue, not a legal one. Some people only like to play against minis that are actually owned by the people playing. If asked whether you have the minis, do not lie. Frankly, it is more fun to play with the minis you actually have, but sometimes "what if" scenarios are fun, too. But from the standpoint of legality, you can play minis with lint and coins if you want. | |
Featherfall??! Who needs featherfaaaalll. . | |
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E.C. Organizer
galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 3:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Craw
... you can play minis with lint and coins if you want.
lol... brings back some good ol' RPG memories =) | |
Join the Eternal Skirmish Campaign.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr Seuss | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 4:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Craw
There is no legal requirement that you have minis to play on vassal. It is an ethical issue, not a legal one. Some people only like to play against minis that are actually owned by the people playing. If asked whether you have the minis, do not lie. Frankly, it is more fun to play with the minis you actually have, but sometimes "what if" scenarios are fun, too. But from the standpoint of legality, you can play minis with lint and coins if you want.
A very slippery slope imo. If no one buys the minis, wizards has no reason to produce more minis. Saying that you can't afford to buy enough to play competitively and then playing online with stats that are posted online is not cool imo. | |
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AngryIrish
Warrior
313 Posts
| | 08/19/2005 10:52 PM |
| Hmmm....To own or not to own, that is the question.
I think it is ok for people on Vassal to play with "proxy" minis. I mean, there are no prizes, no rankings. I don't think WoTC has to worry about people not buying their minis, and having everyone just play online.
I'd like to see someone show up at a tourney with a printout of figs and their stats, and then try to use those. | |
"I'm feelin pretty good today. I don't think anything could make me angry"
"The English"
"AAAAARRRRGGGGGG" | |
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Craw
Sneak
74 Posts
| | 08/21/2005 10:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Richard II
A very slippery slope imo. If no one buys the minis, wizards has no reason to produce more minis. Saying that you can't afford to buy enough to play competitively and then playing online with stats that are posted online is not cool imo.
If the WotC customer base was solely Vassal users who did not play face to face games, that slippery slope would be a lot steeper. Since most of the people here also play face to face games at their FLGS or with friends (or both at the same time hopefully!), they have to have some official minis. Any sanctioned event has to be official minis. Any commercial event that claims to be a DDM game legally has to use only WotC DDM products. Even if you advertised a free event as a DDM event, you would legally have to use WotC minis, otherwise you run the risk of copyright violations. But if I said I was having a "miniature game night" and used a mish-mash of figures from different games and made up extra rules that I wanted, that's ok. The issue is are you trying to make money (luring people into your shop with a free event counts as advertising for commercial purposes) with the Dungeons and Dragons name. The Vassal RPG miniatures mod could technically be a copyright violation in itself. It presents the WotC products (units, tiles, maps) without WotC's permission. (As far as I know, they might have an agreement.) Vassal engine.com has advertising on its site (Mambo open source, Yahoo), so technically, they could be accused of using the WotC products for their own monetary gain. However, WotC seems to have given at least tacit approval. They surely know about Vassal. I expect they consider it free advertising.
Let's hope they don't decide in the future that online DDM play should be a profit center. | |
Featherfall??! Who needs featherfaaaalll. . | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 08/21/2005 1:12 PM |
| Vassal Engine and the DDM mod are not associated, other than one works within the other. Thus the question of intent to use with or without the actual minis falls onto the mod makers, if not in a legal then in an ethical sense.
Oh mighty DDM Mod Creators: what say you? | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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kbales
Warrior
296 Posts
Edmonton, Alberta
| | 09/02/2005 12:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
You just don't know all that you need yet ... but soon, you will ...
[)]
Hint Hint...got something in the works?? | |
- Free DDM and DBM Excel Warband Generator available here
- RPG Stats have finally been added!!!
- DDM Supreme (2.0 stats) is now available for download! | |
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Flint_Firestone
Warrior
239 Posts
| | 09/08/2005 11:12 PM |
| My two Coppers on the subject
I mainly play on vassel. I do own some mines but nowhere near the amount to play competitively. I enjoy a friendly game with someone from time to time on "Vassel". Unfortunately I have never played a heads up game with anyone. Not to say that I do not wont to but logistically speaking there are no FLAGS within 100 miles of my home. So I am reduced to play on vassel. Is it unethical that I play with mines that I do not own? I’d say no. Far anyone to assume that everyone interested in playing DDM lives in a major city is wrong. This slippery slope that some talked about will never happen. Mark my words it is coming maybe not in 2006 but soon there will be an Official WoTC place to play DDM online so thy can capitalize on the “virtual market” similar to MtG. For good or bad it will happen.
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Opps did I do that
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Flint_Firestone
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Veliq
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 09/09/2005 1:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Flint_Firestone
My two Coppers on the subject
I mainly play on vassel. I do own some mines but nowhere near the amount to play competitively. I enjoy a friendly game with someone from time to time on "Vassel". Unfortunately I have never played a heads up game with anyone. Not to say that I do not wont to but logistically speaking there are no FLAGS within 100 miles of my home. So I am reduced to play on vassel. Is it unethical that I play with mines that I do not own? I’d say no. Far anyone to assume that everyone interested in playing DDM lives in a major city is wrong. This slippery slope that some talked about will never happen. Mark my words it is coming maybe not in 2006 but soon there will be an Official WoTC place to play DDM online so thy can capitalize on the “virtual market” similar to MtG. For good or bad it will happen.
Here Here! | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6805 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 09/09/2005 4:59 AM |
| Trent DePonte,
Did you once have the username of fellintooblivion? I noticed it is in your AIM and email address. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 09/09/2005 9:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Flint_Firestone
My two Coppers on the subject
there are no FLAGS within 100 miles of my home. So I am reduced to play on vassel. Is it unethical that I play with mines that I do not own? I’d say no. Far anyone to assume that everyone interested in playing DDM lives in a major city is wrong.
I do not understand how playing on Vassal versus FLGS versus Pick up game at home is in any way tied to the ethics of using minis on Vassal that you do not own.
I own at least one of each set mini. I play at a FLGS once or twice a year because of the time to drive there. I cannot find anyone locally who plays. 95%+ of my games are on Vassal. That just establishes I'm a Vassal user, but does not rationalize why I should play with virtual minis where I have no physical proxy.
These are separate issues.
I also foresee WotC cashing in or at least participating in an online DDM application. | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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Veliq
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 09/09/2005 7:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zippy
quote:
Originally posted by Flint_Firestone
My two Coppers on the subject
there are no FLAGS within 100 miles of my home. So I am reduced to play on vassel. Is it unethical that I play with mines that I do not own? I’d say no. Far anyone to assume that everyone interested in playing DDM lives in a major city is wrong.
I do not understand how playing on Vassal versus FLGS versus Pick up game at home is in any way tied to the ethics of using minis on Vassal that you do not own.
I own at least one of each set mini. I play at a FLGS once or twice a year because of the time to drive there. I cannot find anyone locally who plays. 95%+ of my games are on Vassal. That just establishes I'm a Vassal user, but does not rationalize why I should play with virtual minis where I have no physical proxy.
These are separate issues.
I also foresee WotC cashing in or at least participating in an online DDM application.
So what will you do when WotC decides that to play on Vassal you have to own virtual copies of your minis? Will you pay another $500-$1000 to do so? If we were to go by your line of thought that to use virtual copies of something that is currently owned by a specific person then where are the royalties for any picture of any type of real estate out there? Why are we not paying to use virtual copies of the horrors occuring in New Orleans right now? Or is it the knowledge and rules that you want us to pay for? Would you feel better if we used the rulebook from the DDM which I'm sure we all own, and made up our own mini stats? Because this is all within the power of the virtual world. What you purchase when you buy the tangible minis is just that.... the TANGIBLE miniature. The knowledge that comes with that mini is always under debate anyway. And come on, do you really want to PAY to be able to use the woodland skirmisher? No, you want to pay so that you can have soemthing to look at and touch. It's got very little do with the stats of the miniatures as we all know and agree with seeing as how we have altered the rules and statistics of these same miniatures you say must be owned. Isn't the whole concept of what we have done with Eternal Campaign in and of itself a violation of copyright? And aren't we all commiting some kind of crime by making up our own miniature stats? Changing things with new spells, abilities, and items that fundamentaly create new and unique miniatures? Apparently we are all completely unethical creatures using virtual copies of message boards and virtual copies of pictures such as the one you have in your profile. Or did you draw that by hand and scan it in? If so, you're very talented, if not, you're a thief, at least, according to your own rules. | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 09/10/2005 1:40 AM |
| Veliq, I think you missed my point:
To justify use of Vassal without proxy minis because there's no FLGS close by is a false logic / irrelevant argument. The discussion was the ethics of using Vassal with or without proxy minis, which is separate from a discussion of the motives that lead a person to use Vassal in the first place.
As for intellectual property laws, well, WotC and their lawyers can police that; not I. I do not understand the laws in enough detail to make a statement about the legal ramifications of using Vassal with / without proxy minis. | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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AngryIrish
Warrior
313 Posts
| | 09/10/2005 2:10 AM |
| | I look at Vassal as a friendly, non-sanctioned in any way, way to play minis. Whether it is face to face or over a computer, when it doesn't matter.....it doesn't matter. If you were playing against your friend at your home and he wanted to use a penny to represent his orc champion, would you let him do it? I would. | |
"I'm feelin pretty good today. I don't think anything could make me angry"
"The English"
"AAAAARRRRGGGGGG" | |
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SilentG
Sergeant
616 Posts
| | 09/10/2005 2:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Richard II
quote:
Originally posted by Craw
There is no legal requirement that you have minis to play on vassal. It is an ethical issue, not a legal one. Some people only like to play against minis that are actually owned by the people playing. If asked whether you have the minis, do not lie. Frankly, it is more fun to play with the minis you actually have, but sometimes "what if" scenarios are fun, too. But from the standpoint of legality, you can play minis with lint and coins if you want.
A very slippery slope imo. If no one buys the minis, wizards has no reason to produce more minis. Saying that you can't afford to buy enough to play competitively and then playing online with stats that are posted online is not cool imo.
Not to be offensive, but I think this is a very short-sighted opinion. Anyone who lives on a tight budget should have the restraint NOT to begin playing a game that takes a considerable investment of time and money to play even for fun. I entered this game because it was totally free. I learned from online resources on the WOTC site and spoiler lists printed online. I owned three boosters (all presents) by the time I began playing on vassal. I made no effort to contain my warbands to the units I owned. Since then I've traded and bought two more boosters and have a considerable amount of units due to some people I've met. As I get more and more into this game I will undoubtedly purchase more cards - mostly in sealed and boosterdraft formats. WOTC would have had no chance at capturing any of my money if this game wasn't free to start. Now I look at every unit as an investment that I can have some fun with too.
WOTC makes an incredible profit off this game - there is absolutely no way they could not considering the labor and materials costs are both negligable - the only real cost is shipping from China to distribution points. I would imagine that wotc's cost for each booster with RnD is not much more than a buck. As the game grows their economy of scale will favor even greater profits, so it's ultimately in their favor to recruit as many potential players as possible. This creates even more aftermarket demand and furthers the idea of "investing" in your minis.
There are RPers, collectors, and tournament players who all need the actual minis for their purposes. If I were WOTC I would be willing to gamble that anyone who begins playing this game will eventually fall into one of those three categories. I mean, have a little faith in the game's ability to draw people in, guys. | |
Completed trades: Zarnof, Ehren37, Eric is God, griffrat, cavedweller, Kyrinn, Blade, Humble Minion, Noghri, Ilarue
Reference thread http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9114
Champion of the fiendish, dire milk-cow | |
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Flint_Firestone
Warrior
239 Posts
| | 09/10/2005 5:51 AM |
| First off let start by saying that I am not trying to change anyone’s mind on the ethical use of “virtual” minis. If you feel that it is “wrong” to play a Warband containing a minie that you do not own on vassel then that is your right. But do not condemn a player for views that are different from yours.
quote:
Zippy
I own at least one of each set mini. I play at a FLGS once or twice a year because of the time to drive there. I cannot find anyone locally who plays. 95%+ of my games are on Vassal. That just establishes I'm a Vassal user,
Zippy you must have other reasons for owning a complete set of each release than just playing on “Vassel”. Be it just collecting or you enjoy trading what ever it is there is another force that drives you to spend the money.
If you look at my entire post you will see that I do in-fact own minis not just complete set of every release. Being relatively new to this particular D&D hobby should I be forced to spend 20 plus dollars for say Arcane Archer just because I wont to build a warband around him just to play on “Vassel”No. I think not, and if you feel it is unethical to do so then that is your opinion and right not to.
But on the same tolken don't criticize someone with differant views.
Like I said in my earlier post it will not matter soon anyway because WoTC will soon have a program and server up and running following the same principals as “Magic the Gathering” because the possibilities are endless for this type of revenue and thy can capitalize on both venues.
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Opps did I do that
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Flint_Firestone
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 09/10/2005 8:11 AM |
| I like to play with minis I own, simply because it's easier when you have cards...
Legally? Meh.
Ethically? I know very few people that haven't downloaded a song, burnt a CD, watched a pirated DVD, or recorded a program from free-to-air television.
All of these things are wrong, but people do them. Using Vassal with minis you don't own is the same in a high horse, letter of the law kind of way, but it's hard to holdd it up to the same level.
I think the number of people that start playing via Vassal that haven't first been exposed to the ggame some other way, andd thus purchased at least a few boosters, would be in the vast minority.
To sum up - it's wrong, but nigh impossible to police, and if WOTC don't seem to have the problem, I doubt a grassroots "you're cheating" campaign is going to change anything.
A pointless post? Well ...... yeah. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 09/10/2005 9:15 AM |
| I was not condemning you for your own ethical and or legal choices. These choices are yours to make not mine to police nor would I likely hesistate to play on Vassal against any of you even if I knew you did not own any minis you were playing.
Yes, I have motives other than "Vassal proxies" to own minis. Yes, I'm aware the free activity can draw new people in (which is probably one reason WotC not only allows Vassal, but actually participates at times).
My contention was simply that one of your arguments (not all, not many, just one) used false logic. Not being near a FLGS is irrelevant to the Vassal proxies ethics discussion in my opinion.
If I did not have a throbbing hangover I could come up with a clever illustrative analogy for this [B)] | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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