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TKort
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10/10/2005 3:26 PM  
recovered topic 9725


TKort
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10/10/2005 3:26 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by oldcoast

It's glaringly apparent to me that the Forfeit issues needs to be re-addressed ASAP!

You should not be getting points for games you don't play unless you opponent blows you off, in a unsportsman like or irresponible manner. Forfeits for points should be extremely rare not multiples everyweek. Some players having more than one per week!, not acceptable.

Discuss!

If we need an person to moderate to Forfeit disputes as Gal can't handle it, I volunteer [:)]



Agreed there.. I have taken a few points when people thought they were going to make it then couldn't when things came up.. it's lame when forced, but when people start just handing points back and forth because they don't get around to it, it starts getting a little lame.. don't sign up on a week you're going to be busy etc. Thanks for bringing this up OC I agree 100%.

Tkort.


Richard II
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10/10/2005 4:06 PM  
oldcoast has a point.

If I game can't be scheduled who's to decide who gets the points anyway? If you can't schedule a game, it should be a draw. If you schedule a game and your opponent no shows (whether they've got a good reason or not) you should get the exp if the game can't be rescheduled.

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10/10/2005 4:20 PM  
Bingo. Unscheduled games are a draw. Noshow penalty goes for noshows.

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Zippy
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10/10/2005 4:46 PM  
For any who haven't read it recently, here are the current rules:

"Withdrawing from a Match: A player who can no longer play a match that he has commited to playing must both email his opponent and post in the current round's thread that he must withdraw from the match. A player who must cancel his match for a round and fails to notify his opponent will be banned from the Eternal Campaign untill an acceptable explanation is given. Players who notify their opponents that they will be unable to play will not be penalized. Warlords whose opponents do not show up on the battlefield will triumph and earn 1000XP for their warlord, 1500 campaign points, and a random medium magic item, however they do not gain the 500 Lt XP. The canceling warlord will not receive any benefits."

So, do we need to enforce rules differently, or are the rules themselves out of whack?

There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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10/10/2005 4:55 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Zippy

For any who haven't read it recently, here are the current rules:

"Withdrawing from a Match: A player who can no longer play a match that he has commited to playing must both email his opponent and post in the current round's thread that he must withdraw from the match. A player who must cancel his match for a round and fails to notify his opponent will be banned from the Eternal Campaign untill an acceptable explanation is given. Players who notify their opponents that they will be unable to play will not be penalized. Warlords whose opponents do not show up on the battlefield will triumph and earn 1000XP for their warlord, 1500 campaign points, and a random medium magic item, however they do not gain the 500 Lt XP. The canceling warlord will not receive any benefits."

So, do we need to enforce rules differently, or are the rules themselves out of whack?



We need to do both: We need to enforce them. BAsically if you can prove (emails/posts) that it was scheduled and they noshowed. Then its a penalty. If the person informs that they cant make it then something needs to be done for that, but not what is being done.

So case 1:
I schedule match with person X: They dont show up. I get noshow win

So case 2: We just cant get match scheduled: thats a draw no one gets anything

So case 3: We communicate and I present several options for a match and the person never replies... this is the one we need to address.

Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat.

oldcoast
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10/10/2005 5:11 PM  
I think it needs to be clearer. In order to get any points at all, the infraction needs to be that one player doesn't show up at the agreed and scheduled time. Also and more importantly the absent player also needs to have shown either irreponsible or unsportsmanlike behavior, which needs to be determined.

Example: if I didn't show for match, would anyone I know here think I was blowing them off? No, they would assume something is wrong and they would be right. unavoidable circumstances do happen.

Thus I think forfeits need to be handled on a case by case basis
Also getting full benefit for a forfeit just doesn't seem right, perhaps in the rare circumstance a forfiet is even awarded you should gain Warlord Exp but No Campaign Exp?, while you shouldn't be penalized by your opponents actions, I don't feel you should receive the full benefit either, maybe some middle ground reward??

The whole reason I bring this up as I am reading about players not meeting schedule requirements, assuming or asking for Forfeits.
We need to nip this in the bud., Its not a slight against those in question as they don't know any better, We just need to make this stricter and clearer as it does penalize those players who make it every week.



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dj-chuckles
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10/10/2005 6:54 PM  
I've had 3 forfeits within 2 weeks. 1 was legit because the person could not get vassal going on their computer and kept up to date via emails.

2 people just did not email me back whatsoever. I contacted them and they never got back to be. I find this unfair for the people who want to play. I wanna play really bad but cannot due to people not playing or responding.

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
OMG DJ!This has to be the spammiest spam thread ever!

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oldcoast
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10/10/2005 7:03 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by dj-chuckles

I've had 3 forfeits within 2 weeks.


My point to an example of the problem.

quote:

1 was legit because the person could not get vassal going on their computer and kept up to date via emails.


Sorry that's not legit, that's a draw.

quote:

2 people just did not email me back whatsoever. I contacted them and they never got back to be. I find this unfair for the people who want to play. I wanna play really bad but cannot due to people not playing or responding.


Again they are not forfeits. The games were never actually scheduled between the two of you. As for your opponents signing up and not responding to your emails, It's up Gal to handle them
(I think they get banned.)

I know this sucks for you as you want to play, I'm sorry but we need to keep forfeits as extremely rare occurances. I've had 1 (regretably) in 28 weeks (and if present the same circumstance again I would not accept it) You've had 3 in 2 weeks, I think you can see the problem.

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10/10/2005 7:09 PM  
Ok. I thought about it.

I would agree to this.

Instead of getting +1000 xp and +1500 cp +1 medium item.

I don't want a commander to move on without a lt behind him. Lts are a great thing to have.

How about +0 xp +250cp +1 minor item

I like this better

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
OMG DJ!This has to be the spammiest spam thread ever!

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oldcoast
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10/10/2005 8:29 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by dj-chuckles

Ok. I thought about it.

I would agree to this.

Instead of getting +1000 xp and +1500 cp +1 medium item.

I don't want a commander to move on without a lt behind him. Lts are a great thing to have.

How about +0 xp +250cp +1 minor item

I like this better




At this point Gal needs to decide what that status on your specific games is, I'm sure after reading this he will let you know how your week 38 games are going to recorded. In the future I am sure there will be a more official consensus and announcement. In meantime I see you have 3 games this week try to schedule the all with specific times and play them all, good luck.

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Zippy
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10/10/2005 8:57 PM  
Thanks O.C. & A.D., your summaries point out the holes clearly.

How About:

1) Enforce the rules we have. Noshow after 30 minutes = forfeit, each player can post within 24 hours to get a one time (lifetime) exception for unavoidable circumstances.

2) A forfeit win brings 500 CP and 500 XP for the Warlord, no Lt. XP., and a minor magic item (or trade-up equivalent as normal). This way there is little or no benefit for for players with lack of motivation to get games in, and there is no temptation for conspiring. The CP / XP / Item represents payback for the sunk time that, while less time and energy investment than an actual game, represents what should have gotten them at least a loss in the end.

3) No contact / MIA gets banned until explanation per current rules, and the other party gets a draw week since they just skipped a week and didn't invest significant time waiting fruitlessly nor did they rearrange RL to accommodate a game that didn't happen.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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10/10/2005 9:26 PM  
One of the biggest problems I see is how some people are scheduling. People are posting Ill be on all day sunday, that is not scheduliung a match. Use email or use posts (I prefer and am going back to email, though Ive used posts last couple weeks) just poisting ill be on all day sunday and monday doesnt count. you need set times.

Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat.

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10/11/2005 4:02 PM  
I feel kinda bad because due to a hospitalization in the family I wasn't able to play most of my week 37 games. I posted all this before, so I did what I could, but I think it's not entirely correct when Zippy says that by not playing you havn't invested any time or effort in that week's game. I try to research my opponents's bands, think awhile about good bands I can put together, and testrun the scenario all before playing. To just call it a draw when you can't get your scheduled game is kinda harsh - but then again you don't want to reward laziness or conspiracy to avoid games.

A good middle-road might be to allow both players in draw situations to roll a minor item? I mean, they'd get that even if they lost plus some XP and CPs. I dunno how great a solution that'd be, but at least getting stuck with someone who's impossible to schedule with won't mean you're SOL that week.

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Zippy
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10/11/2005 6:43 PM  
Fair point, SilentG. My intent was to say less than "significant" time was spent by both parties. I realize one or both parties may have spent plenty of time planning, emailing, etc.

I also get heartburn giving a forfeit winner more than he could have earned by actually playing the battle, which in the lowest case is 250XP, 250CP, and a minor item. This isn't really because a forfeit deserves any penalty, rather because the warlord did not do combat and actually gain battle experience.

I don't see awarding zero for a draw and equivalent of a loss (token XP, CP, and minor item) a penalty - Quite the opposite! Rather imho it's a consolation prize for having sunk some time (but not as much as having actually played a game).

I can see both sides of the coin, though, and 2 sides of a coin are close, all considered, to eachother. ΖD]

What is your proposal for a fair set of rules, or would you leave them as is?

Also, on a personal note, very sorry to hear you had to spend time in the hospital. The current and any proposed rules should not exclude you from participating, nor penalize your not showing, for RL emergencies like this.

You'll note my proposal laid down no XP / CP / Item loss for forfeit losers, exactly for the reason you stated - all you gotta do is explain your actions and your back in like Flynn. It only had a token gain for the forfeit "winner".

There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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10/11/2005 8:07 PM  
hey guys.

my apologies for not posting about this earlier. (was away from home all long weekend trying to put out EC fires left right and center while on Thanksgiving holiday...sigh...)

I've posted the current rules as I have tried to enforce them. I am in no way adamant that these remain cast in stone, however they are how I will rule untill we improve or need to further clarify them.

First, here are my thoughts on the philosophy behind default wins. In my opinion, any player who cannot play his match through no fault of his own is where I think the Forfeit level should be (and where it is now). By this I mean 1. Player doesn't show up for scheduled match, 2. Player dissapears, 3. Player has to cancel due to personal problem issue.

I think any player who has signed up to play and cannot play their match because of their opponent for one of the above reasons should in no way be penalized. They've already been screwed over by not being able to play their game. I see no problem with giving them the benefits of a win. As mentioned above about an in between ground, I think we already have that in that no Lt XP is awarded.

As for penalties, reasons 1 and 2 should both come with automatic penalties, where the situation needs to be clarified in order to remove them.

The BIG problem I see right now is an enforcement issue, not so much in assigning default wins under the rules above, but of following up on the penalties. This I have completely failed at [:(]

I would greatly appreciate a volunteer to keep track of these. I've debated whether this should be public or not... but right now I'm leaning towards public. It will allow us to track trends, it will encourage players to complete their matches, and to follow-up when they truly have a good excuse for bailing.



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galneweinhaw
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10/11/2005 8:09 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by oldcoast

If we need an person to moderate to Forfeit disputes as Gal can't handle it, I volunteer [:)]


No I can't...OC, I will gladly accept your help [:)] and thanks a ton for offering.


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10/11/2005 8:12 PM  
One of the things exacerbating this issue is the multiple warlords. Since one player having a personal emergency can put out 4 games.


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SilentG
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10/14/2005 3:33 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Zippy

Fair point, SilentG. My intent was to say less than "significant" time was spent by both parties. I realize one or both parties may have spent plenty of time planning, emailing, etc.

I also get heartburn giving a forfeit winner more than he could have earned by actually playing the battle, which in the lowest case is 250XP, 250CP, and a minor item. This isn't really because a forfeit deserves any penalty, rather because the warlord did not do combat and actually gain battle experience.

I don't see awarding zero for a draw and equivalent of a loss (token XP, CP, and minor item) a penalty - Quite the opposite! Rather imho it's a consolation prize for having sunk some time (but not as much as having actually played a game).

I can see both sides of the coin, though, and 2 sides of a coin are close, all considered, to eachother. ΖD]

What is your proposal for a fair set of rules, or would you leave them as is?

Also, on a personal note, very sorry to hear you had to spend time in the hospital. The current and any proposed rules should not exclude you from participating, nor penalize your not showing, for RL emergencies like this.

You'll note my proposal laid down no XP / CP / Item loss for forfeit losers, exactly for the reason you stated - all you gotta do is explain your actions and your back in like Flynn. It only had a token gain for the forfeit "winner".



I think the rules on forfeits are pretty fair actually. I was simply saying that in draw situations both players should get a minor roll. In my case my opponent's didn't get forfeit wins bc we didn't schedule the games (I left town that Sunday night - no time to schedule). I just think that due to any inconveniences, my opponent's deserve some sorta consolation in that draw situation.

I know I get kinda worried when people are hard to schedule games with. I've sent a lotta emails with pretty definite times on them and gotten about 25% replied to. I don't wanna take 0 pts this week after putting some effort into my strategy just because I don't get a reply and never see person XXXX online.

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