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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
    
Portland, OR
 | | 05/25/2005 5:34 PM |
| | recovered topic 4044 | | | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 05/25/2005 5:34 PM |
| Your warband may also be weak versus LSD/LRD warbands, that can simply fly dragons past the astral constructs and base the HEBIs. A LE warband with a couple green dragons may also be a bit of a problem.
Have you considered working Aramil in there somehow? A ray of enfeeblement would weaken the FB and ogre ravager so they could no longer take out an astral construct with one blow. Also, it would effectively halve the ZWD's damage output, which is useful considering how often it hits when it attacks. | | | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6802 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/25/2005 6:32 PM |
| | Doesn't Aramil have to be within 6 squares to cast ray of enfeeblement? That would mean he would have to get out into danger to cast the ray early. | |
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derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 6:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
I have no qualms about drawing AoOs to base enemy casters or commanders - if I flank your Orc Druid with a pair of Astral Constructs, you're going to think hard about not pulling back a heavy piece to help the Druid. There are exactly two pieces that can kill an Astral Construct in one attack - Frenzied Berserker and Ogre Ravager.
The advantage of the DCoL and the Orc Druid is that with 35 HP, they can move away from these annoyances with no qualms. You are right the base damage of 30 for the FB and OR will kill the MAC, but be careful, the Eye of Gruumsh can be within range of an Orc Champion that moves up and cleaves away two MACs. ouch.
The Ogre Ravager first made the 30HP creatures no longer sexy, the arrival of the Orc Champion made them uglier (especially since in that era, cave-of-pain was still a scenario.) The arrival of the FB put the nail in the coffin of most 30 HP creatures.
But the arrival of the Beholder has changed all that and the MAC is now the MAC Daddy. But, you might not need 5 daddies, just one or two will do and with the remaining points get to Graycloaks or a Goliath Barbarian, smack!
EDIT: add:
Another thing to consider is adding a Cleric of CL instead of 3 MACs. The hold person at range could give you additional options, and the HEBIs, if they hit it will be for 20. The CoCL provides one more key target for heavy hitters to engage. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 7:02 PM |
| You might consider swapping out a couple for badgers, thus giving you another option for screening if you want to have spell resistance out there instead of construct-ness. Badgers also clear fodder better and they can conceivably become 35 hp fearless critters instead of 30 hp ones, although you can't count on your opponent letting your badger get to his orc warriors. Plus you may as well get a little benefit out of the GFD commander effect.
I think catfolk + gnome recruit has absolute disadvantage compared to elf warrior x2, also. I'd make that change even if I didn't hate the way the catfolk mini looks. ;)
Last - why Mialee? You don't have anyone who really needs a magic weapon, so you're probably better off with a different 5 point filler piece there, like say Ialdabode, who has a repeatable ranged option (a couple different types, even.) | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 7:12 PM |
| I think you're on the right track, but for the love of all that's precious, get rid of that Gnome Recruit. How about:
Greenfang Druid 50
Half-Elf Bow Initiate 43 93
Evermeet Wizard 39 132
Halfling Ranger 23 155
Medium Astral Construct x2 20 175
Aramil, Adventurer 13 188
Elf Warrior x3 12 200
Still ranged, but against the Zombie Whites you think you'll see, the Halfling is a half-priced HEBI. 16 Activations with six Timber Wolves coming in and six chances to stun, which would slow down figures another turn. Aramil is a decoy against the Large Silver Dragon and reds. | |
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Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 7:22 PM |
| I'd like to meet this agreeable opponent who will graciously allow you to get off two HEBI full-attacks on the first round! [:)] I think your damage estimates of 75,70,60 on the first three rounds is more likely to be something like 5,25,55 (allowing for some misses) against a more careful opponent.
Having said that, it's not a terrible idea to include two MACs. I think five is three too many, though. You don't need more than two to block up a corridor, and taking out the other three means getting two Graycloaks and two wolves. I guess that means it's no longer an Astral Construct band, but I think it wins more often with the Graycloaks. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 05/25/2005 7:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
Doesn't Aramil have to be within 6 squares to cast ray of enfeeblement? That would mean he would have to get out into danger to cast the ray early.
Sure. But the idea behind this warband is that you'd create a choke point, then fill it with MACs. Just put Aramil behind the MAC wall, and have him enfeeble any heavy hitter that tries to clear away the wall. If your opponent is able to penetrate the Astral Construct wall to get to Aramil, you should be rethinking your strategy and tactics.
Personally, I'd be interested to hear how this band does, but I'm not sure I'd run it. One weakness of several smaller filler units versus one large one is that it is easier for an enemy to clear out just one or two units and use the hole created to reach your back lines, which is much tougher with a ZWD.
Another possibility if facing a large dragon would be to keep just 2-3 astral constructs up front, and leave two hanging back with the HEBIs. Position the HEBIs and constructs so that it is impossible for a large flying creature to base the HEBIs. You run the risk of a dragon flying back and breathing on your mini group, but at least the HEBIs can still shoot back. | | | |
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Okay McKay
Underboss
1068 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 8:54 PM |
| | The MAC's don't hit very hard though, do they? Why wouldn't a CE band just ignore them? | |
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| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 05/25/2005 10:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Okay McKay
The MAC's don't hit very hard though, do they? Why wouldn't a CE band just ignore them?
Because they are worth a quick 10 points. Four equal the cost of a heavy hitter and are much easier and less risky to kill. CE heavy hitters may ignore them, but the CE screen will move up and smash away. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 4:37 AM |
| Jebus, this thread exploded!
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
I'd like to meet this agreeable opponent who will graciously allow you to get off two HEBI full-attacks on the first round! [:)]
The glass is half full, and hope springs eternal.
If I really want early ranged pain I'll be packing Mushroom Tangle, Shrine of Justice, and maybe Creeping Tangle, so unless the other guy shows up with Treasure Room, Torture Chamber, and Medusa's Chamber I should be reasonably good.
Maybe drop that Creeping Tangle for an Intersection, just to guarantee control of the center should I win tile init.
'Course, that shoots the "block a corridor and hold it" idea to itty-bitty shreds.
quote:
Originally posted by derry
The advantage of the DCoL and the Orc Druid is that with 35 HP, they can move away from these annoyances with no qualms.
True, but my annoyances will be persecuting you for a couple of rounds, what with Fearless. It's quite hard to miss an Orc Druid, you know. And while you'll keep your cool, most players react badly to attacks on their commanders. For instance, I tend to wet my pants when that happens. It's quite awkward.
quote:
Another thing to consider is adding a Cleric of CL instead of 3 MACs. The hold person at range could give you additional options, and the HEBIs, if they hit it will be for 20. The CoCL provides one more key target for heavy hitters to engage.
I can't find a DC for the Hold Person, but I think trusting to saving throws is a bad idea in general. The CoCL also eats up an activation (assuming I toss in some filler to make up those last 5 points), and this band's low on them already. It gets completely neutered if the enemy can take damage with one hitter, then rotate in a different hitter before I can finish off the salvo.
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I think catfolk + gnome recruit has absolute disadvantage compared to elf warrior x2, also. I'd make that change even if I didn't hate the way the catfolk mini looks. ;)
The Catfolk is a 5-point speed 8 dude. I don't want to spend 10 points on a tile-grabber, so Catfolk it is. Its ranged attack is also 50% better than the Elf Warrior's. [:p]
quote:
Originally posted by Damien the Bloodfeaster
Your warband may also be weak versus LSD/LRD warbands, that can simply fly dragons past the astral constructs and base the HEBIs. A LE warband with a couple green dragons may also be a bit of a problem.
Yeah. Dragons will be a real pain! [:(]
I don't think the Green Dragons will be that bad. Their damage output is just too low to make basing a pair of HEBIs and a GFD viable. They might disrupt me briefly (by focusing my attacks on them), but if an opponent is willing to hand me 57 points worth of dragon, I'll gladly trade 50 points of MAC (Big MAC? Hey, new warband title!) to do the same thing. Most LE bands also tend to be low on the melee muscle, and I'm perfectly happy trading blows at range.
quote:
Have you considered working Aramil in there somehow?
Aramil is the best. I did indeed consider putting him in, but decided to sack him later on in the design process.
Compromise choice: Sack two Astral Constructs, pick up Aramil, an Elf Warrior, and another Gnome Recruit?
Really, I'm just trying to find a use for Gnome Recruits and Astral Constructs. [:p]
quote:
Originally posted by Okay McKay
The MAC's don't hit very hard though, do they? Why wouldn't a CE band just ignore them?
For the same reason CE bands do or do not ignore Dreadguards - you pile 'em up front and force them to engage. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 2:21 PM |
| You have 5 speed 10 constructs, you don't need the catfolk for tile points!
If you really don't want to use a MAC for that, drop Mialee for a timber wolf or swap catfolk + gnome recruit for an elf warrior and a hyena (and drop Mialee for something, in any case! Devis?)
The gnome recruit is just beyond useless. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1357 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 2:24 PM |
| | CG really needs a decent 3 pointer, and we need an updated version of the orc warrior for CE fans who can't shell out three or four bucks for one of those little buggers! | | | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 3:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
You have 5 speed 10 constructs, you don't need the catfolk for tile points!
But the MAC is 10 points. I don't want to immobilize 10 points to grab a tile while the other guy's using a 3-point Orc Warrior, because that means I've got 190 points in the field and he's got 197.
In addition, the Catfolk has a reasonably good ranged attack for his point cost, so even if his tile is away from the action, he can plink away.
quote:
If you really don't want to use a MAC for that, drop Mialee for a timber wolf or swap catfolk + gnome recruit for an elf warrior and a hyena (and drop Mialee for something, in any case! Devis?)
Mialee's in there for Magic Weapon (Upping a HEBI to +15/+15/+10 can be useful in a pinch - or getting the Catfolk to +4), and her Magic Missile (clear some fodder or force a morale check so the HEBIs can focus fire elsewhere). Devis is mildly useful, but I don't think his Countersong is so awesome in this build.
Elf Warrior + Hyena instead of Catfolk + Gnome has some merit.
quote:
The gnome recruit is just beyond useless.
What're you talking about? He's AWESOME!
quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
CG really needs a decent 3 pointer, and we need an updated version of the orc warrior for CE fans who can't shell out three or four bucks for one of those little buggers!
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be getting either. R&D gave CG an awesome 4-pointer, and the Orc Warrior's just too good. Get your hands on 'em now before they go up even more in price. Me, I just got one Orc Warrior. [V] | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 3:15 PM |
| quote:
Devis is mildly useful, but I don't think his Countersong is so awesome in this build.
If he's standing behind a MAC, that MAC suddenly takes two swings for an orc champion to kill - that is potentially huge, I think. You don't really need the magic weapon, since your hitters all do magic damage anyway. If you really want to boost the HEBIs there's a pretty nice tile setup with sacred circles I stumbled on in a match against Guy a couple weeks ago, I'll show it to you on Friday if you're there. | |
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PIGSNOT
349 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 6:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
There are exactly two pieces that can kill an Astral Construct in one attack - Frenzied Berserker and Ogre Ravager. Anything else requires you to burn a full attack or use multiple activations.
Apparrently, someone has forgotten that Hill Giants are pretty darn good at squishing MAC, as well. With their large base and cleave, they've got a great shot at taking out two in one round.
For shame Korhal_IV - how could you forget the mighty hill giant?!?![)]
-E Diggidy | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 7:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PIGSNOT
Apparrently, someone has forgotten that Hill Giants are pretty darn good at squishing MAC, as well. With their large base and cleave, they've got a great shot at taking out two in one round.
For shame Korhal_IV - how could you forget the mighty hill giant?!
I only think about Tier 1 pieces. [:p]
Hill Giant is less of a worry because his warbands tend not to be as speedy or multiple-hitter heavy (usually you see x2 Hill Giant, or Hill Giant + Rav). I can deal with one piece that can crush my MACs.
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
If he's standing behind a MAC, that MAC suddenly takes two swings for an orc champion to kill - that is potentially huge, I think. You don't really need the magic weapon, since your hitters all do magic damage anyway. If you really want to boost the HEBIs there's a pretty nice tile setup with sacred circles I stumbled on in a match against Guy a couple weeks ago, I'll show it to you on Friday if you're there.
The MAC takes two swings anyway, doesn't he, with his 30 HP? I'm not seeing which of Devis' abilities improves the MAC's survivability. I could just be dense.
I might be there Friday - I will be at GK today if you're going. I definitely have things to learn about tile setup. :) | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1357 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 8:03 PM |
| | No new 3-pointer for CG? Think again: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=436624 | | | |
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PIGSNOT
349 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 8:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
I only think about Tier 1 pieces. [:p]
[:0]Wha? This must mean I've failed in my quest to make the Hill Giant a tier 1 piece!
Please don't insult the Hill Giants . . . you make 'em look bad infront of noobs that just join the boards[:o)]
quote:
Hill Giant is less of a worry because his warbands tend not to be as speedy or multiple-hitter heavy (usually you see x2 Hill Giant, or Hill Giant + Rav). I can deal with one piece that can crush my MACs.
Okay - that makes it understandable. Yeah, those HGs cost slightly more than the popular CE beaters . . . which leaves less room (duh - sometimes I make the best statements).
They may have been a lot more playable if they were capable of listening to the cheaper commanders in CE . . . as it is right now, the Hill giant is almost double is cost just to be in command
Could someone please get this difficult stain off my hill giants?!?!
-E Diggidy | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/26/2005 8:51 PM |
| quote:
The MAC takes two swings anyway, doesn't he, with his 30 HP? I'm not seeing which of Devis' abilities improves the MAC's survivability. I could just be dense.
Devis can turn off the commander effect of the Eye. With an Eye in range, an orc champ hits for 30. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 05/27/2005 3:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
No new 3-pointer for CG? Think again: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=436624
[:0]
Wow! Now we know there's another good common out there!
quote:
Okay - that makes it understandable. Yeah, those HGs cost slightly more than the popular CE beaters . . . which leaves less room (duh - sometimes I make the best statements).
They may have been a lot more playable if they were capable of listening to the cheaper commanders in CE . . . as it is right now, the Hill giant is almost double is cost just to be in command
Yep. However, part of me wonders if a beater that hits for 40 wouldn't've been totally devastating on the metagame if you could easily team it with just about any other unit.
Hill Giants are also Large, which makes them much easier to peg with arrows.
Speaking of Hill Giants, how does everyone feel about removing a HEBI and the Gnome Recruit, and subbing in triple Greycloak Rangers? Tile grabbers, activations, and more-or-less the same damage output (bigger chance to miss, but harder to base all four archers). | |
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