Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
    
United States
 | | 06/11/2005 9:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Markdragon
The reason I do not like the pre-printed map is that now the map will dictate the metagame. The map will either benefit range combat or close combat. It could also benefit flying (swamp), heat resistant (fire pits), cold resistant (ice flow) .... Which I would like very much to have different maps with different envirnomental conditions but not for the Nationals. Placing tiles is (was) part of the game.
Actually, this is why I guessed that WotC might start coming out with multiple maps, after this year's GenCon. Instead of tiles being packaged with Starter Sets, they'd have maps. Maps would be made available in Retailer Kits, and maybe included in one or two issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. The idea would be to get a few different maps out there among the players, catch the buzz on them, and tool maps for specific kinds of things.
They'd have 500-point maps, 100-point maps, 200-point maps, 100- and 200-point maps, maps for all three, etc. Double-sided maps are a great idea and they'd eventually end up with them if they didn't start there (if they went this route).
Sure, it would eliminate tile placement as part of the game, but with an assortment of playing grids, tournaments would still be challenging.
I'm not a fan of this, I like being able to prevent first-round fireballs, or having a Treasure Room to pack my figures into. And I'm guessing that enough other players would want to keep tile placement that it will remain part of the game. But, I could see it going the other way.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 06/11/2005 11:12 AM |
| | I hope the map they give out is double sided with the other side being a standard blank grid so we can play the normal way on it if we want. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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eMpTy Kay
Underboss
1068 Posts
| | 06/11/2005 2:06 PM |
| I have just one question. With the Vassel 'Powers That Be' have the Gen Con map in a new DDM module for us to playtest before Gen Con? Since AF will be comeing out at the same time, I am hoping that they will put both (AF update & Gen Con Map) in the same mod.
I don't think Tiles will go away, but for a magor evevt, it does speed things up. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 06/11/2005 3:23 PM |
| This could be a brilliant development for tournament DDM, and I don’t think many appreciate the possibilities here. Maps put together with ‘n’ point constructed matches in mind hold the promise to take the game to a new level.
Though in the minority, I’ve posted the opinion that looking for “balance” between factions that are more than just same-function-different-name clones is a pipe dream if the environment is not manipulated. Warband building is not enough because there will always be an optimal solution to any given victory condition; some are just better at it than others. Variable terrain as manipulation is also not enough; optimal solutions abound here too, and it shows in the limited set of tiles used by the elite players.
By creating environments in which, indeed as Bonepinhimer said, people “will be fitting their warband to the terrain” instead of the other way around it could change the optimal fig list and better balance the alignments. Over time a set of such environments would be nothing but good for the game. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 06/12/2005 12:02 PM |
| I doubt that any custom maps will become so overused that it'll get to be like chess. It's kind of nice for my friends locally who are sick of getting beat. The map will level the playing field for them (although they still have to take advantage of it's features).
I'd assume that there will be a cave tile on both sides, some easy scoring tiles, some open areas and some forward turtle type areas (maybe a room that's sort of like a smaller treasure room).
Hopefully R&D takes a look at the best terrain setups and counter setups from the best players, and makes a map that looks as though it was set up by Dagni vs Kiddoc, or Doubt of Budda vs Wiz O Snark, or BShugg vs Groves... any top Vassal player pair.
They have access to the best players in the world (no offense meant to great players not mentioned).
What will happen then, is that there will be some possibility for 1st turn fireballs with GMA + Pyromancer, if the Pyro wins initiative... but the other player can still pack his whole warband behind cover to avoid it (a disadvantage to be sure).
If a player is worried about first turn fireballs, they can work on winning initiatives and bring units that they can lead with that can absorb the fireball (Couatl, Hellhounds, Azers, Medium Gold, Red Dragons, Burning Skeletons, Beholder w his anti-magic etc.)
Actually, it could increase a mix of figures designed to respect that spellcaster option.
They'll probably spring new custom maps on people before every major tournament. There'll be enough time to playtest, but, not enough time for every competitor to find and exploit every nuance of the map. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Midnight Afterparty
Sneak
50 Posts
| | 06/13/2005 12:41 AM |
| I personally don't like the pregenerated map. I do think that we're going to get alot of standard build's opening activations, it will certainly change what bands are played.
On a personal level, I have also gotten VERY good at terrain placement. I feel like this will take a good chunk of my strategy out of the game, but I suppose I'll have to just check it out and come prepaired.
Adam Zaremba | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 06/13/2005 1:13 AM |
| Seems to me like people are overreacting on this issue. I've heard of no intentions by WOTC to replace terrain tile games in all tournaments with preset maps; they are only using it for the finals at Gen Con. And it makes sense there, since the day will be so grueling and intensive that they'd want to keep things streamlined as best they can.
I suspect that they'll see how players at the finals (and in friendly games) react to the map before they make any decisions about bringing out more maps and/or making it a part of future tournaments. | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 06/13/2005 11:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Damien the Bloodfeaster
Seems to me like people are overreacting on this issue. I've heard of no intentions by WOTC to replace terrain tile games in all tournaments with preset maps; they are only using it for the finals at Gen Con. And it makes sense there, since the day will be so grueling and intensive that they'd want to keep things streamlined as best they can.
I suspect that they'll see how players at the finals (and in friendly games) react to the map before they make any decisions about bringing out more maps and/or making it a part of future tournaments.
True. If you've gotten that far, you're a good enough player to remain competitive without tile placement as part of your game.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 06/13/2005 11:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
The next question, for me, is this "Does this mean that we can expect such maps to become the norm in tournament play after GenCon?"
Will future sets come with a couple such maps? Will our fought-for tiles become just so much crap collecting dust on our shelves?
Dave
WotC is presumably doing this in the "hope" that it will allow most tournament games to complete in under 1-hour.
My prediction is that it will fail abysmally. And when it does, WotC will try something else entirly. The problem is not slow game mechanisms (like placing terrain) but that a minority of players perceive there is an advantage to be gained in rules for what happens when a game "times-out". | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/13/2005 11:52 AM |
| quote:
My prediction is that it will fail abysmally
Can you expound upon why?
When I see highly skilled players going up against each other, tile placement burns up 10-15 minutes. Even if you assume 1/2 of that, remember you gaining that itme at the END of the game.
The whole issue with timed matches is that you use 50 minutes before your truly engaged with the enemey. Then you have just 10 minutes to decide a victor.
1 extra round ONCE THE WARBANDS ARE ENGAGED, will most likely at least demonstrate a clear victor by point, as opposed to I won 70-65... thank goodness I cleared his OW off that tile so he couldn't get points in the last round...
Games that are resolved at 150-100 points, and time is called are much clearer as to who the ultimate winner would have been.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/13/2005 10:34 PM |
| You folks have a very different metagame out there.
We place tiles quickly in socal (~6 minutes) - and then move relatively slowly. We only get in 4 - 5 rounds, typically.
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Let it be. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 06/14/2005 7:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
My prediction is that it will fail abysmally
Can you expound upon why?
1 extra round ONCE THE WARBANDS ARE ENGAGED, will most likely at least demonstrate a clear victor by point,
1 extra round after "Contact" would indeed help to produce a decisive result to the game.
But IMO, saving time by not having tile placement will all too frequently result in an extra round being spent before contact. Not in an extra round after contact.
IMO the cause of this is 2 concepts in the the ddm floor rules;
1) A win by killing a single 3-point Orc is just as "valuable" in the tournament results as a win that compleatly wipes out a 200pt warband for no loss. So there is exactly zero incentive in the tournament rules for attempting a decisive result to the game.
2) When "time" is called, the floor rules require compleating the round. i.e. The larger warband is given the advantage of making attacks to which no-counterattack will EVER occur. An advantage it cannot get in a non-timed game. That simultaniously encourages everyone to use large warbands (which generally slows play down) And gives an uber-advantage to the larger warband, provided it can avoid decisive losses before time is called.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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MightyStumpy
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 06/14/2005 10:18 AM |
| First and foremost I would like to say that I do like the idea of a pregenerated map...but this is a poor place to reveal it.
Terrain is a massive part of the game and some of us have won matches by creating bottlenecks and sending a breath weapon through it [:D]
Maybe having it as the map for the pre-release would've been better.
However I do like the idea of getting a couple more rounds of combat to truly decide a winner.
The big question here is which bands does this help and which does it hurt. Does it help LSD type bands with their greater staying power or does it help Quad style bands by allowing them a couple more rounds to finish off opponents? Or does it hurt LSD bands by making them play a couple more rounds of attempting to deny points or does it hurt Quad bands due to their less than stellar staying power?
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Never ever blame the dice, it is the number 1 way you never improve your game. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/14/2005 10:21 AM |
| quote:
But IMO, saving time by not having tile placement will all too frequently result in an extra round being spent before contact. Not in an extra round after contact.
Hmmm...
I'd be interested to see if others agree with you.
In my experience, it takes 2 solid rounds to position your self the way to want to engage the enemey. You have to enegage, even with tile points, if you want to WIN.
If what you say is true, then spell casters and archer bands are going to leap to Tier 1 very quickly, while the big hitters drop down. WHy? Because if no one is engaging, then the guys with distance can pick the enemey off, and get a leap on points for that last round dash.
That doesn't make sense... Given an extra round, the heavy hitters have more rounds to get across teh board, and make up for low OW's, by taking out those archrs.
I'm not buying it!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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netprophet
Skirmisher
4 Posts
| | 06/15/2005 12:00 AM |
| i think it sounds pretty neat. i mean there are 4 weeks to study the map, this places a lot of stress on warband building. you'll need to tailor a force for the terrain. who knows what LOS issues, assault issues there are going to be. the person who can design the best force for the terrain given, and not some tier one everybody in the country is playing it just about force.
see what i mean? i'm sure the sides will have differences in them, meaning designing a warband that makes sense when played from one deployment might not work as well from the other. i think it's a test on battleforce design, flexibility, adaptability.
i love it. cause that's one of my favorite parts of this game.[:D]
and i'm sure it's been play-tested.[^]
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 06/15/2005 2:44 AM |
| I have to agree with those who say it'll speed up the game. Not only because the time spent placing is done away with, but because those who care about it will *know* what their first round or two will be.
If you know the layout and your own forces the only variable when it comes to determining your move out of the gate is what you're facing. In this you've got three basic types - area effect range, single target range, and nothing. In all cases the serious player will have planned their opening moves long before they sit down opposite a competitor.
It's not only the placement that takes time away from the hour. It's dealing with a map you just learned existed as well. On a studied map things should move at a better clip. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 06/15/2005 9:41 AM |
| | There is another danger that I just thought about. If people have a month to prepare with this map, and the map will benefit certain pieces and/or strategies then you may see even less variety in the warbands that show up. Now we have predominantly CE at the qualifiers. What if this map favors a specific CE type of band. Then everyone will be using the same band. I think several people have alluded to the fact that the map will dictate the warband choice. The warband choices are already limited as to what is considered tier 1. If we limit it further you will see even less variety. Simplifying the game in order to speed up the game is not necessarily good for the game. Tile placement adds a lot of variety and makes every game unique. I think I would grow quite tired of playing on the same map for 8 games in a row. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 06/15/2005 9:44 AM |
| | Hopefully WotC will be smart and make atleast 6-10 different maps (1 or each round of the championships. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 06/15/2005 10:15 AM |
| That is not going to happen because they have stated that each participant will receive the map as one of their prizes for playing and can will take it home with them. So they will not make a map for each round. I think that would be very nice indeed but it isn't cost effective for WoTC.
If they unvailed this as a surprise map (Only first revealed at Gen Con when the tournament is about to start) then it would be more fair except to the guy whose band is totally screwed from the map. He would complain that if he knew what the mapped looked like ahead of time, then he would have brought something different, so that isn't a good solution either.
I think the banning of the drider was enough of a change to speed up the metagame that we didn't need to change another variable as well.
It's too late to get them to change, so complaining now will only affect future decisions. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/15/2005 10:18 AM |
| | I think that with the right terrain set-up they could pull off a mat that favors multiple styles of bands. Its worked reasonably well with SWM (with the exception of the drideresque R2D2 Astromech issue), and I think the DDM design team is smart enough to pull it off. I do agree that having multiple mats would be better though. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/16/2005 3:50 AM |
| Yeah, I think a "Triad" type of thing might be good, with three different maps. Heck, there could even be different scenarios that go with the different maps, if desired.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/16/2005 2:40 PM |
| I don't really see that you can logically conclude that if currently, all matches tend to have melee contact on a certain round that removing the time spent on tile setup will just make everyone spin in circles for longer before contact is forced.
Some bands need to make melee contact, and derive an advantage from getting an extra round to beat on things - a slower lawful melee band, for example. They take longer to kill things with lower damage so they need more rounds of attacks. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/16/2005 6:23 PM |
| My guess:
The top players will have a band designed within 15 minutes of looking at the map.
Most will tweak for the next two weeks.
Probably a third of them will change warbands completely, either due to their perception of the meta and coming up with a hate band, or alternatively due to some epiphany later.
In the end, one band (with minor variation) will be played by 50% of all players. The other will play the "hate band" or the epiphany bands.
In the end, the winning warband will likely also be the one most played. But hey, that's just he odds | |
Let it be. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 06/16/2005 7:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
My guess:
The top players will have a band designed within 15 minutes of looking at the map.
Most will tweak for the next two weeks.
Probably a third of them will change warbands completely, either due to their perception of the meta and coming up with a hate band, or alternatively due to some epiphany later.
In the end, one band (with minor variation) will be played by 50% of all players. The other will play the "hate band" or the epiphany bands.
In the end, the winning warband will likely also be the one most played. But hey, that's just he odds
Interesting. I'll put out a different prediction.
*Unless* (all psychics have to have an out, eh? [:)]) there is the introduction of some radically new terrain type or set up (e.g., a chasm with bridges, multi level buildings with stairs, fortification bonuses, arrow slits, traps, areas that give alignment/race bonuses, areas that must be entered to win being filled with damaging terrain, force/fire/ice walls with rules to destroy them, etc. etc. etc.), there will be no appreciable change in warband composition. The same group of dominant figs/warbands that exist in tile play will be what's played on the pre-printed map.
Speed and damage will continue to rule Skirmish, no matter the terrain, if the terrain set remains the same as it is now.
-- Edit -- This assumes the same victory conditons, ie, Assault, are in use. Changing those, even with a preprinted map of nothing but 'standard' terrain, could also change warband composition. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/16/2005 7:44 PM |
| | I just hope there is a cave area for the lil Mongrelfolk. Or that hurts LE (which doesn't need hurt) pretty bad. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 1:59 AM |
| Balduran
Our predictions are technically different, but they are by no means mutually exclusive. Indeed, many players may see the map and decide very quickly to play quad orcs..... | |
Let it be. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 11:45 AM |
| Tried,
You're right. I'm really looking forward to seeing the map (going to Origins in a couple of weeks and hoping they have it there), and am anticipating both howls of protest and squeals of delight from the folks here no matter what it looks like.
This game's evolution is impressive - the pace is deliberate, not desperate. Calls for radical change are resisted, yet the thought behind them are obviously considered and when appropriate acted on. New ideas get a fair shake. The online community is in the loop, and given tons of respect - even when we don't earn it for anything other than *probably* representing people who spend money. I think the maps, no matter how they turn out to work in real life, are an effort worth doing. Won't know until the Hard Corps try 'em out! | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 11:49 AM |
| Im a little nervous about the maps as I enjoy the "matching wits" part of terrain placement. Its one of the areas of the game that has little to do with luck. Sure you dice to see who places first, but there are clear strategies and counter strategies for placing tiles. Sometimes I like to go second as I can set up defensively.
However Im willing to give the maps a try. It may be great, or it may be a failed experiment. We won't know until we try though, and what better test then in a field of the best players around. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Phrank
Warrior
235 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 12:21 PM |
| I'm also a bit worried about the pre-map, i just hope that there will be at least 3 map, one better for melee, one better for ranged and one more neutral.
I also think by taking out the tiles placement they remove a huge part of the game, after all like Bshugg it an important part of the strategie of any warband.
But still i'll wait and see what are the result | |
Complete set: hummm all
Jaraxle: Do keep ever present in your thoughs, my friend, than an illusion can kill you if you believe in it.
Entreri: And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not.
— Jaraxle & Entreri, Servant of the Shard | |
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lindair
Sneak
154 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 2:21 PM |
| | Give me lots of pre done maps. Make some common others uncommon and some rare. Gives me something else to collect. could work very well for RPG as you design an adventure around the maps. The more choices available the better. Could help bring others into DDM family. I know some folks i play with informally hate placing tiles. Me give me more choices!!!! | |
Cleveland, Ohio
H/W list
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=lindair
Reference Thread http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6808 | |
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lindair
Sneak
154 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 2:21 PM |
| | Give me lots of pre done maps. Make some common others uncommon and some rare. Gives me something else to collect. could work very well for RPG as you design an adventure around the maps. The more choices available the better. Could help bring others into DDM family. I know some folks i play with informally hate placing tiles. Me give me more choices!!!! | |
Cleveland, Ohio
H/W list
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=lindair
Reference Thread http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6808 | |
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Terin
Warrior
185 Posts
| | 06/17/2005 3:24 PM |
| Check out the latest issue of Scry. 2 products slated for release in Sept and Nov are 2 Map Packs. Fane of the Drow and Hellspike Prison. The Maps are double sided and also comes with a 16 page RPG book and scenarios for Miniatures.
Not sure if these will be legal in tournaments but I think they will add to the player base and bring more RPG'er into the mix at the very least. I'm looking forward to them.
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