Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
    
 | | 07/26/2005 7:33 PM |
| | recovered topic 6497 | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 7:33 PM |
| Thats kinda hard to put a number on I think. You see a lot of variants to the most talked about bands but I think alot has to do with how your local "meta" game is. Some bands you use locally might get crushed by some of the well know bands and some may destroy certain tier 1 bands but fall apart against others. Also their are probably alot of bands that may be "tier 1" but have not been played enough to prove themselves.
Just my thoughts | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 11:01 PM |
| There is just one band that, when piloted by a top player, will never fail except on dice. That is a CE Orc horde.
Everything else, LSD and Inspired Frenzy and so forth, plays second fiddle to the Orc Horde. | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 12:41 AM |
| CE HH warbands will have problems with several of the JA builds. I would not like to face the following with a non-frills 4 HH CE warband:
1 Purple Dragon Knight or Cleric of Dol Arrah
1 Barbarian Mercenary
4 Justice Archon
6 Men-at-Arms
This is not the most creative of builds but still has a favorable matchup. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 07/27/2005 12:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
There is just one band that, when piloted by a top player, will never fail except on dice. That is a CE Orc horde.
I strongly disagree. For one thing, there are a number of 3 and 4 beater CE bands that are stronger and more consistent than a pure orc horde. For another, every band wins or loses, to a certain extent, on the dice. And last, every band has unfavorable matchups and can fail even with reasonably favorable die rolling. The only thing on which I can basically agree is that pre-angelfire, the 4-beater CE band described by Kiddoc in his WotC articles is about the only band out there that doesn't really have any unfavorable matchups in the pre-angelfire "top tier". Now that Angelfire is out, all bets are off, though. "Tier 1" needs to be reevaluated.
Wicked cool is probably right that the old metagame included no more than a half dozen basic archetypes for bands in the top tier. That doesn't mean there weren't more that belonged in that group. Now with Angelfire, I think we'll see a few new top band archetypes. I hope to see as many as a dozen, but we'll see if the community is clever enough to come up with that many. | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 1:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
There is just one band that, when piloted by a top player, will never fail except on dice. That is a CE Orc horde.
Everything else, LSD and Inspired Frenzy and so forth, plays second fiddle to the Orc Horde.
Massive hyperbole and wishful thinking for the win. Korhal's statement is incorrect. If he were correct, then surely CE Orc hordes would win every single tournament in existence. As we all know, that is not the case.
Moving on - Tier one is a hazy definition at best. Also, at this stage we can really only think about pre-AnFi tier one as we have not had a whole bunch of tourneys to iron out the additions that AnFi brought in.
I would say the following is a fair approximation (pre-AnFi):
LSD
Quad / Tri hitter CE
Inspired Go Go / Go
Inspired Frenzy
It is worth stating that Tier one bands have variation and fluctuation between them - ie. varying type or quantity of support pieces. | |
We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free. (Bill Hicks)
Disciple of Kithmaker | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 2:46 AM |
| Don't mean to sound cookie cutter, this is coming from way back from reading Tolkein, but...
Orc's rule. They should be number one. A band of Orcs is the first thing I built and that's because they kick it Mordor Style.
Sorry for not contributing at a more in depth level; but thats the beauty of orcs; what you see is what you get. | |
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adept
Warrior
336 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 2:57 AM |
| | There are simply too many variant bands out there. ZWD, harpies, quad, tri, LSD(turtle),LSD(aggro), inspired frenzy, inspired golith and plenty others (cant think of everything at moment, too late). With anglefire here there is even more band possiblites (chraal comes to mind, couatl might mess with all the new pieces that use elemtal damage ect...). Inspired Frenzy can be a great band but only when it is put into the hands of an expert. So at the end of this rant I will like to say the player of the band is what makes it top tier and not the band itself. Every band has its bad match ups as well so there is to many things to add in to determine how good a band is. | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 3:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by delguidance
Don't mean to sound cookie cutter, this is coming from way back from reading Tolkein, but...
Orc's rule. They should be number one. A band of Orcs is the first thing I built and that's because they kick it Mordor Style.
Based on Tolkien - Orcs suck. The only reason they manage to be threatening is by massively outnumbering the enemy. Even the hobbits manage to bag themselves some confirmed orc kills.
Given that the minis game is limited to a maximum of 12 minis each side I would pose you the following conundrum:
Thorin and the other 11 dwarves from the Hobbit
OR
12 'Mordor' Orcs
Which would you prefer? | |
We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free. (Bill Hicks)
Disciple of Kithmaker | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 07/27/2005 8:28 AM |
| I'm thinking the 3-hitter CE bands with some tech pieces are generally better than the 4-hitter CE bands without tech pieces. Just from what I've seen in the tournament reports this season.
LSD bands are very good, but harder to pilot, that's probably why we don't see them more (and because, as some have pointed out, they're not as fun to play--my apologies to those of you who love them).
A couple of the Inspired Frenzy bands are definitely still top tier, although we'll see Xeph Warriors infiltrating them.
Lawful Evil (pre-Angelfire) doesn't really have any tier-1 bands, but they have some tier-1 pieces. I'm thinking that we'll see some Beholder and/or Soth bands that continue to poke their heads into the top places at tournaments and someone may come up with a Chraal band that puts Urthok back on the map.
Dave | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 9:14 AM |
| Your best bet would be to base it on actual results at events. For example theres a CG pyromancer variant that 2 people played and both qualified with. That would give it 100% success rate but a small sampling. Also the Large red dragon band put up impressive results. Up until the last 2 weeks of qualifiers 11 people had ran it with 10 of the 11 qualifying (4 players winning with it). I don't have the numbers for the last two weeks with it.
As much as people like to loudly claim the power of specific bands in general, at any given event there is going to be a clear best warband for that event. Tier one is sort of a misnomer. There are top bands that can all be successful in a limited manner. The true "tier one" changes for each event. Predicting what you expect to face and designing the band to beat that will give you better results than a tier system. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 9:33 AM |
| I'll echo some other sentiments in that the options for competitive warbands seem to be expanding. Quad-CE is still a great option, and until its dethroned in actual tournaments, its still the king. However, because of that, some people are going to build their warbands specifically to counter it. With many of the new figures, Quad-CE opponents now have the resources to do so.
If these new creatures do pan out as many expect, and if this trend continues with the designers, then I think the opportunities will continue to expand. The tourney winners are going to be those who can both sieze the advantage when they have the superior match-up, and pull off the upset when they have a bad match-up. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 9:58 AM |
| Quad CE was already dethroned as king during qualifier season. Despite being one of the most heavily played bands, it only won about 2-3 qualifiers. Not bad at all, but LRB won 4, LSD won about 6, and Lich bands won another 2-3. Quad is very powerful, but by no means head and shoulders above all other bands. It could be argued that Quad has suffered relatively with the release of Angelfire, since some reasonably effective counter (not just hate) bands are now possible.
I like bshuggs comment that a tier one band is the band that happens to be well equipped to beat the other bands you will actualy face at any given tournament. For example, at our qualifier, one guy showed up with Dual Aspect of Lolth. Since there were only two LSD bands out of 26 at Milford, the Lolths did not fare that well at all. If that band had been run at the Mesa qualifier (at least 4 LSD bands out of ten, I believe), the Lolths could have qualified with a slightly lucky draw.
However, barring actual insider knowledge (and hate bands that have to hope for one opponent), what is the difference between "correctly guessing the metagame" for a tournament and just making a lucky guess? It seems very much like playing rock-paper-scissors: I know he just played rock, so maybe now he will play paper. But I know that he knows that I know. But he knows that I know that....
At some point one stops plumbing these depths of recursion and just goes with a choice. But is there actually talent involved in deciding when to stop recursing, or just luck? Again, this leaves aside the case of someone being in communication with other players and thus having actual knowledge of some of what will be played. I can see skill involved in this case, as one decides what to play to best take advantage of the limited knowledge.
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 10:19 AM |
| For the Orlando, Florida Qualifier I was in a unique position to know what a good portion of the field was likely to be. I had already put together a band that I thought would do well in a more general sort of field but, based on what was running I didn't see anything that would cause my band a huge amount of problems.
This sort of knowledge can be invaluable, but is difficult to gather in anything beyond local tournaments. For the Qualifiers it was tough, as there are usually a reasonably good chance that there would be a quantity of players showing up who were out of your experience with the metagame.
This is even tougher at Nationals as there are going to be some 80-odd players who are could go in any direction with their particular build. I know that I have been a little anxious trying to figure out what exactly I want to play, without any sort of specific metagame knowledge, but that inevitably anyone who does well is going to have to have a combination of the right metagame decisions, the right match-ups, and a bit of luck. Player skill is, of course, going to matter, but any individiual band is probably going to have a competitive weak match up at Nationals, and you are probably going to have to face that sort of band in one of your rounds.
On top of that there is going to be a level of competitive play at Nationals that you won't find in most tournaments outside of certain high-competition areas (California, Boston, and certain parts of the Midwest.) There are going to be some incredibly good players there (Dagni, bshugg, Derry, patlynch, and Phrank), but there are also going to be a lot of good enough players. Players who are skilled enough that they wouldn't neccessarily win the majority of 500 matches against top players but can get lucky enough and are skilled enough in individual matches to make it to the Top 8, and then perhaps even pull off a win even in the face of superior play skill.
So in other words, I agree with bshugg and Pat. :P Having the right band at a tournament, especially a big one, is just as much about luck as reading the metagame, especially when its almost impossible to read the metagame. With Nationals approaching many players are keeping their opinions to themselves, particularly on message boards, which just adds to the overall difficulty in metagame reading.
Angelfire has only added to that general level of difficulty. In previous tournaments, you could play a CE triad or quad band and be reasonably certain of success. While those sorts of bands are still very solid, there are enough new pieces in Angelfire to make such a choice a little less certain. The short period of time before Nationals only exacerbates this.
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I am not gone. | |
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andytum
Sergeant
400 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 11:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
Thats kinda hard to put a number on I think. You see a lot of variants to the most talked about bands but I think alot has to do with how your local "meta" game is. Some bands you use locally might get crushed by some of the well know bands and some may destroy certain tier 1 bands but fall apart against others. Also their are probably alot of bands that may be "tier 1" but have not been played enough to prove themselves.
Just my thoughts
I agree that it's difficult to figure out the number of tier-1 bands, so I'd prefer to think of it as a number of tier-1 minis or tier-1 mini combitations. | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 07/27/2005 11:25 AM |
| | I'm waiting to see what Kiddoc pulls out of his hat in 24days. He moved very timely to NC. I know he'll be back on boards shortly, but will still have his thoughts "close to the vest". | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 11:27 AM |
| | Last I heard he wasn't going to Nationals. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Schooly_D
Sergeant
402 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 11:29 AM |
| quote:
. . . I'd prefer to think of it as a number of tier-1 minis or tier-1 mini combitations.
I agree. And, I think there may be a good number of Tier 1 pieces yet to be utilized. It's just a matter of finding the right complimentary pieces (some of which may not even be released yet). | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 11:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Last I heard he wasn't going to Nationals.
He isn't and he hasn't had a chance to play much in the last month or so (other than the Angelfire prerelease).
But seriously folks - all of the nationals players are doing the same exercise right now. Most of them would love to play something new and so are looking at non-LSD LG and LE bands and comparing them to older CG/CE builds. In addition, everyone is looking at the older builds to see what changes can be made to make them more brutally effective.
Tier 1 is very crowded but bands fit a small number of base archetypes ... it's just that now most factions have the capability to build against all of thise high level types. | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 07/27/2005 11:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Last I heard he wasn't going to Nationals.
I thought he was trying to get WotC to pick up the tab for him to come back for the championship. I understand he just moved, got a new job and is planning for a new addition to the family. I guess I just assumed (my bad) the WotC would come through for the 1st DDM champion. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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XAos
Underboss
2401 Posts
London
| | 07/27/2005 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cormulan
[quote]Originally posted by delguidance
Based on Tolkien - Orcs suck. The only reason they manage to be threatening is by massively outnumbering the enemy. Even the hobbits manage to bag themselves some confirmed orc kills.
Is that the same hobbits who crippled the Witch King of Angmar.[?][:0][:o)]
If it takes someone who can sneak attack an opponent that even Gandalf was affaid of to "Off" an Orc then that rates Orc's as more dangerous than a Balrog. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Cormulan
[quote]Originally posted by delguidance
Based on Tolkien - Orcs suck. The only reason they manage to be threatening is by massively outnumbering the enemy. Even the hobbits manage to bag themselves some confirmed orc kills.
Is that the same hobbits who crippled the Witch King of Angmar.[?][:0][:o)]
If it takes someone who can sneak attack an opponent that even Gandalf was affaid of to "Off" an Orc then that rates Orc's as more dangerous than a Balrog.
LOL | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 1:33 PM |
| The only top tier band in existance is 10x Ochre Jelly and 2x Gricks.
I call it, "The Fully In Command and Tactically Flexible Warband" | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 2:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by NewtoncainI thought he was trying to get WotC to pick up the tab for him to come back for the championship. I understand he just moved, got a new job and is planning for a new addition to the family. I guess I just assumed (my bad) the WotC would come through for the 1st DDM champion.
My understanding is that he cannot arrange to get the time to go. Some of the financial considerations have been removed. | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 07/27/2005 5:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by derry
quote:
Originally posted by NewtoncainI thought he was trying to get WotC to pick up the tab for him to come back for the championship. I understand he just moved, got a new job and is planning for a new addition to the family. I guess I just assumed (my bad) the WotC would come through for the 1st DDM champion.
My understanding is that he cannot arrange to get the time to go. Some of the financial considerations have been removed.
bummer, but a new job is more important than a plastic krack game. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Cirrus
Sneak
78 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 7:09 PM |
| | I dont know for sure. But I woudl think a top tier band would be one with good armour, good saves and good HP. well, and at least 10 magic damage capabilities on multiple pieces. It woudl be impossible to build a true "always" win top band. there are dice involved you know. But I would say that a band with huge damage, or huge HP would be top, only because that's the survival thing going there, the best defenseis a good offense teh best offense is a good defense. Either could work. Hell I've made dwarven bands that kill 2 ogre ravagers/orc champ/ eye consistantly, but that's hate right there. | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 12:32 AM |
| Your asking me to consider Thorin's people? Without Gandalf to hold their hand? They mangaged to get captured by wood elves. Bombor alone would be commander dependant. Tolkein's orcs were so bloodthirsty that with no one else to fight at cirith ungol they took each other out.
I'd rather take David Bowie leading a bunch of goblins than Thorin. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 4:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cormulan
[
Massive hyperbole and wishful thinking for the win.
I'll take any win I can. [:p]
Really, it's hyperbole, but a little true. CE hitter bands have pulled out many wins before. I think they can still do that next month. Sure, they've got more competition, but right now few of us can put our fingers down on surefire AN bands, and CE hitter bands reliably beat IF/LSD, IMO. | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 4:56 AM |
| Judging by the looks of things, Angelfire might have reduced the NEED for fodder, as a lot of pieces have DR and the activations would jsut be there to sit, however having the activation isn't so bad and maximizing it would be nice.
I think the Chraal might also bring on new LE warbands, he's got two downsides and a large list of abilities to use against an opponent, I thought it would be quite a surprise to use three chraals and engage a foe with red wizard asa commander and blow up the chraals and opponents with a huge fire and iceball. With the damage they deal before-hand and the empowered ball and three deathbursts... you know, thats a lot of damage.
And not really tier 1 either, but I think Chraal and Orog might bring about new LE archetypes along with Justice Archon for LG, as well as CoDA...
However... tier 1 is changing so drastically right now, I think its very difficult to tell. | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 5:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by delguidance
Your asking me to consider Thorin's people? Without Gandalf to hold their hand? They mangaged to get captured by wood elves. Bombor alone would be commander dependant. Tolkein's orcs were so bloodthirsty that with no one else to fight at cirith ungol they took each other out.
I'd rather take David Bowie leading a bunch of goblins than Thorin.
Aah - but it's Thorin + pals vs Orcs, not Wood Elves.
Remind me again what happened at the Battle of Five Armies when the Dwarf gang strode out to battle? - sure Thorin ended up dead, but I think they managed to account for a few more than 12 goblins before they fell.
And based on what you say, all Thorin has to do is kick back smoking pipeweed and wait for the orcs to deal with each other first. | |
We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free. (Bill Hicks)
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/30/2005 3:26 AM |
| | All right all right I'll concede: I'm kicking the LSD out of my LG band and putting in Dwarven Defenders and Samurais and some Artificers. I hope there's lots of constructs in upcoming sets. Also a mounted dwarf would be nice for tile grabbing. It would be a seriously goofy mini, but right now at 3:00 a.m. the idea of a dwarf mounted on a giant eagle with a bag of rocks seems so great. | |
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