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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
    
 | | 10/27/2005 4:22 PM |
| | recovered topic 10488 | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 4:22 PM |
| I'll give you my thoughts on the topic - keep in mind that even excellent players can misinterpret a figure, as should be noted by the high marks given to the Ethereal Filcher on both the top 20 list and the related top 5 list. Apologies if some of these don't seem like anything particularly new.
quote:
Originally posted by Gohu
1- What is an average (also exceptionnal or weak) AC
The most significant 'breakpoint' for AC is 21 - a 21 AC allows a figure to laregly ignore fodder and makes hitters with relatively low attack bonuses (like the Justice Archon and Ogre Ravager) less reliable at delivering damage.
quote:
2- The same goes for HP
The concensus seems to be that 65 HP is the most significant 'breakpoint' - enough to avoid having to make a morale save even after taking two 15 point hits or a 30 point (Ogre Ravager or Sword Archon) hit.
A 2:1 ratio of HP:cost is also good to look for. Part of what makes the Chraal so good is that he's got 85 HP for a cost of only 35 points. Again, this isn't a hard and fast rule - you don't see many Longstrider Rangers played even though their HP:cost ratio isn't that much off from the Chraal's.
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3- Speed
Anything above speed 4 is do-able. In a tile-based world, speed 4 or 3 simply isn't fast enough to allow that creature to reach a key point on the battlemap before the fight begins in earnest. If the fight occurs on your enemy's scoring tile, you're already at a disadvantage.
That said, it's possible for speed to get too high; speed 12, especially when combined with Flight, is dangerous in that a failed morale save can cause that creature to vanish from the battlemap before you even have a chance to rally it. A creature like the Medium Air Elemental (F14) is pretty much gone if it ever fails a morale save, no matter where it is on the map or how the terrain is assembled.
Between F8 and F10 is probably the 'sweet spot'.
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4- Attacks roll and/or single vs multiple attacks
The higher the better, and the more the better. Given that the AC breakpoint is 21, I'd suggest that a similar 'attack bonus breakpoint' would be +12, but I don't know that I've ever seen anybody suggest that. The more the better.
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5- Spells, are those useful and/or just a nice side or a must
Spells usable at sight range are better than those usable at range 6, generally.
Spells that affect an area (radius or cone) are better than those usable only against a single target, generally.
Spells that do untyped damage are better than those that do typed damage, generally.
A spell's DC, if it allows one, should be 17 or higher, otherwise it will only reliably affect fodder. Since most spellcasters are much more expensive than fodder pieces, this isn't a good trade-off. Spells that don't allow a save are generally better than those that do.
Spells that render a creature helpless are generally better than spells that merely stun a creature, which in turn are generally better than spells that merely impose a penalty. Howver, in the right circumstances (curse of impending blades with low attack bonus, high damage beaters), penalties that don't allow a save can be more valuable than status effects that allow a low save.
Healing spells are generally not useful unless they heal enough damage to negate the effect of at least one big hit. Thus, 5 point cures are generally a waste of time, but the 30 point cures of the Cleric of Dol'Arrah are outstanding. (Note also that touch spells, since they can be cast while based, are better than self or range 6 spells also.)
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6- What special abilities stand out and other that just plain sucks.
Special abilities that allow you to avoid damage or provide defenses are generally good, though they also tend to be expensive (Incorporeal, Conceal). Immunities are good, particularly immunities that come from your creature type rather than an explicit 'power' (again, why the Chraal is so good), but conditional immunities tend to only be as good as their condition is common - Immune Flanking is good since any creature can flank, while Immune Sonic, while good against those creatures that do primarily sonic damage, won't be as generally useful.
Offensive special abilities can be considered to be spells for evaluation purposes, but keep in mind that special abilities can be used while based regardless of range.
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7- Othere things to consider ??? level,points anyting ?
People seem to like special abilities that fall outside the regular 'paradigm' (part of why the Ethereal Filcher seemed so good at the time, I suspect), but the key question when considering any figure is this:
Will this figure's abilities allow me to get more points out of my enemy than I put into purchasing him?
That's really the bottom-line question.
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Gohu
Sneak
80 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 4:38 PM |
| thx pauper for taking the time to do this. i know it is basic stuff but we all have to begin somewhere !!! ;-)
Gohu
p.s.: Now i know why Chraal is such a high pick !!! :)
p.p.s: Do someone know why the designer decide to make the damge in blocks of 5 only ??? | |
«I didn't came to play, i came to win» - Kamahl, Pit Fighter | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 10/27/2005 4:45 PM |
| You forgot an extremely important stat for evaluating a mini--damage from attacks. Attacks that deal a lot of damage are extremely valuable in the skirmish game. Several early CE minis were undercosted because the impact of high damage attacks was underappreciated.
Some abilities can only be considered useful (or not useful) based on the opponents you expect to face. After you've cut your list down by eliminating the obviously sub-par minis, and you've identified a few that appear to stand out, you then reevaluate borderline minis by looking at how their special abilities will help them in a match against the better minis:
Chraals are big right now, so resistance to cold and resistance to fire are relatively important abilities. (Resistance to fire is important because where you expect to see Chraals, you should also expect to see bands built to kill Chraals by taking advantage of their vulnerability to fire.)
Orc Champions will always be dangerous, so any creature with exactly 50 hit points is significantly lower in value than 55 hit points (for the basic reasons Pauper mentioned). By the same token, Frenzied Berserker, Ogre Ravagers and Orc Champions led by the Eye of Gruumsh do 30 damage per hit, which is why 65 hit points is a lot more valuable than 60 hit points.
Ranged attacks can also be valuable and should be considered when evaluating a mini, but they're often overvalued. The problem lies with how steeply ranged attackers decline in value once the enemy has closed for melee.
And you have to consider the role a mini will be playing in a band. Certain abilities look nasty (like the Chuul and paralyzing rend), but you need special circumstances to get the best use out of them. If you can't see how you can create the circumstances to get the most out of your special abilities, then those abilities are of little value in the skirmish game. They'll add to the point cost of the mini but not to the power of your band.
7. Level is quite important. Failing saves can quickly turn a game around. For that reason, and because initiative is critical at certain points in a game, commander rating is also a key stat to consider. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Gohu
Sneak
80 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 5:27 PM |
| I knew i forgot something ... Damage !!! effectively is it important as level for the save. good point.
Thx for the «added bonus» faragdar !! ;-)
And do you know why the designer put the damage on a base of 5 instead of more precise approach ???
Gohu | |
«I didn't came to play, i came to win» - Kamahl, Pit Fighter | |
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winterwolf
Sneak
50 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 5:55 PM |
| | The damage (and, incidentally, HP) are in multiples of 5 for the sheer sake of simplicity. more die rolls = longer games, and the skirmish rules are designed to be a simplified and accelerated version of the rpg rules. For home play its a simple thing to add the 2 or 3 extra hp and roll a d8 for a longsword. (a variant my group has used quite successfully on several occaisions.) | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 5:56 PM |
| quote:
And do you know why the designer put the damage on a base of 5 instead of more precise approach ???
Making the math more complex would slow the game down with calculation. Increments of 5 is nice and easy, and keeps the numbers vaguely similar to what they are in regular D&D. | |
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