Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 2:38 PM |
| Some things ...
First, this represents the collected thoughts of a good dozen to twenty experienced folks. I think I hit a few folks in most of the areas ... heck I can't even remember who all I asked. Obviously, nearly everyone agreed on the "core" kit ... things varied somewhat on the extended kit.
Second, I'm going to sticky a link to this in the Resource thread above so new folks can find it and older folks can point new players to it.
Third, this list is really a base guide. It represents a point in time (now) with our understanding of the current and near-term environment for 200 point play. As that changes we'll be able to modify the list or discuss here on this thread and get more input from the community. Let's discuss here ...
Fourth, what we specifically did NOT include were figures to watch. LG as a faction is poised to have some pretty wicked synergies in the future and there are a number of promising pieces that just haven't made it into successful competitive play just yet. No one is saying that they are bad, just that they aren't the first things a new player should go out and grab.
Things to Watch
- Redgar, Adventurer - As more uniques come into play Redgar might see some use bridging in useful unique folks.
- Soldiers, Fighters, Guards, Militia - This is a group that can grow for quite some time; given the usefulness of the Village Priest and Cleric of Dol Arrah WITHOUT using their commander effects this area is just gravy.
- Dwarves - With the Battle Plate Marshal (and including the Marshal himself and the Ancestor) there's a small-in-stature but growing segment of LG forces that could break out in themed efficiency.
- Loyal Earth Elemental - He's got the base stats, but I haven't seen any great builds with him. So far there are other things that are better options in most cases.
- Big Dudes - Justicator, Stone Giant, Sword Archon, Mounted Paladin - These guys have some successful 200 point builds but don't perform as well as having two smaller hitters in their place. Watch them though; they have the stats to break out. In 500 though this could be a very different story.
- Stat buffers / tech spellcasters - Artificer, Wizards, etc. have not had a good showing in timed competitive play. They do well enough in untimed matches, etc. but in timed play they have not seen their hey-day.
- Warband building subjects - The CoY can bring in Halflings and whereas there haven't been a ton of essential builds using Halflings in LG, it could happen. Pay attention to the warband building options of your faction and keep a few of those pieces around if you like to experiment or invest in the future.
You don't need these today, but if they are commons or uncommons it might be worth while holding onto a few just in case. Besides, you might want to try out something interesting or different. If you want to break into competitive play though and you want to know the best pieces to grab (espescially from the older sets), this is a good guide. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 2:39 PM |
| I think the Aspect of Kord's aggression text contains the "on his turn" language, which means that you can't snake's swiftness him for a 40 damage hit. (Or maybe it was a typo and you meant 40 then 30.)
Nice article. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 2:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I think the Aspect of Kord's aggression text contains the "on his turn" language, which means that you can't snake's swiftness him for a 40 damage hit. (Or maybe it was a typo and you meant 40 then 30.)
Nice article.
You are right. I don't own the Aspect yet (I will though. Yes, I will.) but I do have the Grey Render which says it is on its turn. I will fix it.
Too bad though, as that makes it slightly less awesome. [:)] | |
I am not gone. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 2:54 PM |
| I think leaving the Battle Plate Marshall out is a bad deal. He'll see some play IMHO.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 2:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I think leaving the Battle Plate Marshall out is a bad deal. He'll see some play IMHO.
R~
Yeah, I am being conservative about the Battle Plate Marshal at this point (and Underdark in general) at this point. I only included pieces I was SURE would see competitive play. Right now I am very uncertain about him. He is definitely a piece to watch though. | |
I am not gone. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
You are right. I don't own the Aspect yet (I will though. Yes, I will.) but I do have the Grey Render which says it is on its turn. I will fix it.
Too bad though, as that makes it slightly less awesome. [:)]
Nice article... I think the AOK is actually 61 points, not 65, but I might be incorrect. I remember being surprised at his low cost at the prerelease. If he is 61, it opens the door for a AOK/2xJA/Couatl/Cleric of Order/3xMAA band. Fairly scary, IMHO. I think it will have definite advantages in the maps era over Snake Eyes, which may suffer from usually playing on the opponents map. | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DaemonKain
Nice article... I think the AOK is actually 61 points, not 65, but I might be incorrect. I remember being surprised at his low cost at the prerelease. If he is 61, it opens the door for a AOK/2xJA/Couatl/Cleric of Order/3xMAA band. Fairly scary, IMHO. I think it will have definite advantages in the maps era over Snake Eyes, which may suffer from usually playing on the opponents map.
Even so, I think it still works reasonably well with the AOK/2xJA/Couatl/Village Priest/Azer Raider/MAA builds, as the Village Priest can be pretty good at upping the Justice Archons overall attack efficiency. Granted a +3 to initiative isn't phenomenal, but its enough that you should win a reasonable amount of times in a match. Its definitely something I want to try out. | |
I am not gone. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:05 PM |
| Great article.
Can we expect to see a "toolkit" on all the factions? | | | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:07 PM |
| Definitely. I am working on putting together the preliminaries of the Chaotic Good one now. Chris and I need to hash out the list, and then I will work on writing it up and posting it. I hope to have articles up for every faction by a week from Friday.
Jesse | |
I am not gone. | |
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:09 PM |
| Good job. I like all of 'em.
While the Couatl is an early contender for Kord's best friend, I think the CoDA deserves an honorable mention - you're more likely to get Aggression off, and Kord's more likely to get his healing and morale check, which I hear were killers at the pre-release, what with his low AC. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Even so, I think it still works reasonably well with the AOK/2xJA/Couatl/Village Priest/Azer Raider/MAA builds, as the Village Priest can be pretty good at upping the Justice Archons overall attack efficiency. Granted a +3 to initiative isn't phenomenal, but its enough that you should win a reasonable amount of times in a match. Its definitely something I want to try out.
I think I'm missing something... how does the Village Priest boost the JAs? I'm with you that that is a solid build though. Cleric of Order's spells are what really do it for me, as they can bring Kord into "Never fails a save" category, or, "Chraals don't hit me much" category. ;)
Unfortunately, both of these commanders are pretty susceptible to Rikka. Still... Vassal testing, here I come!
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-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:16 PM |
| | The Village Priest boosts the JAs with his spells. He can cast bless on both of them, and a magic weapon on another one of them. Making one a +11/+6 before flanks and the other a +12/+7, which is much more respectable than a +10/+5 | |
I am not gone. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:16 PM |
| quote:
how does the Village Priest boost the JAs?
Bless and one casting of magic weapon. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Korhal_IV
Good job. I like all of 'em.
While the Couatl is an early contender for Kord's best friend, I think the CoDA deserves an honorable mention - you're more likely to get Aggression off, and Kord's more likely to get his healing and morale check, which I hear were killers at the pre-release, what with his low AC.
Yeah, I like the CoDA, its just tough for me to justify running only two hitters in a band, even if one of them is as beefy as the Aspect of Kord. | |
I am not gone. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
The Village Priest boosts the JAs with his spells. He can cast bless on both of them, and a magic weapon on another one of them. Making one a +11/+6 before flanks and the other a +12/+7, which is much more respectable than a +10/+5
Ah, right, wasn't paying attention. I wasn't registering that bless affects all targets. ;P | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:18 PM |
| The only thing I don't like about this article is that you didn't send it secretly and only to me. ΖD]
Actually, a lot of the stuff in here has been well known for a while, but, seeing it all together, with some new units included and analyzed, is very useful. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:20 PM |
| 1 -quote:
Mialee allows high cost lawful good and chaotic good units to damage creatures protected by magic weapon
I believe you mean protected by DR.
2 - Can you define in the post what the last number is? Im guessing its the number of each unit you should keep in your tacklebox.. but having that defined would make it a bit easier.
3 - Considering how well your evaluation for UD pre-release was, Im planning my ebay purchases for payday after UD release (buying cases of product puts a crimp on my hidden ebay purchases.. the wife might eventually notice).
Overall, thanks alot for the effort and I look forward to the other factions with eager (perhaps even giddy) anticipation.
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
1 -quote:
Mialee allows high cost lawful good and chaotic good units to damage creatures protected by magic weapon
I believe you mean protected by DR.
2 - Can you define in the post what the last number is? Im guessing its the number of each unit you should keep in your tacklebox.. but having that defined would make it a bit easier.
3 - Considering how well your evaluation for UD pre-release was, Im planning my ebay purchases for payday after UD release (buying cases of product puts a crimp on my hidden ebay purchases.. the wife might eventually notice).
Overall, thanks alot for the effort and I look forward to the other factions with eager (perhaps even giddy) anticipation.
1) You are correct. I fixed it. My mind gets mixed up sometimes when I am writing these articles as its wanders off into warband building territory.
2) You are correct. If you look at the last paragraph of the Core Toolkit section it notes it there. :)
3) Thanks, I am glad the article was useful to you. :) Be aware that these are just miniatures that are useful for the current metagame. Some, such as the Battle Plate Marshal, might become useful as time goes on and new figures (in this case dwarves) are released. It just happened with the Young Master and might happen again. | |
I am not gone. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Can you define in the post what the last number is? Im guessing its the number of each unit you should keep in your tacklebox.. but having that defined would make it a bit easier.
Last line under Core Toolkit pargraph:
"Please note that the number at the end of the stat block is the quantity that you are most likely to need for warband building purposes." | | | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 3:37 PM |
| | Nice toolkit, guys. It's really a tremendous thing to put all that knowlege into one, coherent report. I know a lot of players will be printing this out (and future reports!) as a referrence for warband building . Thanks!ΖD] | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 4:09 PM |
| | Great job guys. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 4:50 PM |
| | er.. oops. I missed that line. | |
Minis... Serious Business
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 10/31/2005 8:45 PM |
| Great article!
But just wondering, do we really need 2 AoK? Squeezing both of them in the band wouldn't leave space for much more, especially after adding a couatl...
Anyway, any chance of you guys doing up articles for the other factions? | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 8:36 AM |
| Very nice! You've done justice to my favourite faction , but I do want to mention the Iron Golem. I think that at 61 pts this fig will be popping up in a lot of LG bands for quite a while. 25 damage is hard to get in LG. If the marut is worth mentioning, this guy definately needs some love [:D]
ps. The gold dwarf soldier.[:D] | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 10:14 AM |
| There are several reasons that the Iron Golem didnt make this list while the Marut did.
1) Speed. The Marut is speed 6 which, while not phenomnal, is servicable. The Iron Golem is an atrocious 4. This is not good on a piece that will frequently end up being a centerpiece of your warband.
2) Spell Immunity: All. Especially against things like the Justice Archon and the Chraal the Iron Golem is only going to be hitting for 20 points of damage a round, which is not nearly enough on a 60ish point mainstay of your army. His immunity to spells also makes him immune to the Couatl's snake swiftness, which are an important key to the Marut's ability to do enough damage for his cost.
3) Commander Dependent. If your commander dies so does the Iron Golem. If your commander dies with the Marut, they still have to deal with a big scary 75 point hitter. | |
I am not gone. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 10:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
There are several reasons that the Iron Golem didnt make this list while the Marut did.
1) Speed. The Marut is speed 6 which, while not phenomnal, is servicable. The Iron Golem is an atrocious 4. This is not good on a piece that will frequently end up being a centerpiece of your warband.
2) Spell Immunity: All. Especially against things like the Justice Archon and the Chraal the Iron Golem is only going to be hitting for 20 points of damage a round, which is not nearly enough on a 60ish point mainstay of your army. His immunity to spells also makes him immune to the Couatl's snake swiftness, which are an important key to the Marut's ability to do enough damage for his cost.
3) Commander Dependent. If your commander dies so does the Iron Golem. If your commander dies with the Marut, they still have to deal with a big scary 75 point hitter.
I agree with Jesse's exclusion of the Iron Golem, at first I was all about him, but after facing him and looking at him more, he just misses the boat. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 10:30 AM |
| Interesting. I do agree (somewhat) with the reasons that you gave for excluding the iron golem, but I honestly would worry more about facing the golem than the marut. I don't consider spell immunity:all or commander dependant to be all that dehibilitating. The chrall proves that commander dependant can be dealt with, and spell immunity also protects from enemies spells. If you're not playing in a band with a lot of buffs it's not a huge deal. Additionally, sacred circles can get around DR.
I know that the golem has problems, but most LG figs do at this point [:D] i just think that it will end up being better than most people give it credit for. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 2:12 PM |
| My thanks to Jesse and Chris... it's time to clean my boxes out, and move the RPG only stuff into a new container (or 10...).
Glad to see that the final lists are getting generated...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 2:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Interesting. I do agree (somewhat) with the reasons that you gave for excluding the iron golem, but I honestly would worry more about facing the golem than the marut. I don't consider spell immunity:all or commander dependant to be all that dehibilitating. The chrall proves that commander dependant can be dealt with, and spell immunity also protects from enemies spells. If you're not playing in a band with a lot of buffs it's not a huge deal. Additionally, sacred circles can get around DR.
I know that the golem has problems, but most LG figs do at this point [:D] i just think that it will end up being better than most people give it credit for.
I think the Chrall proves that three (or more) large based, speed 8 figures can overcome "Requires Commander". I don't think the lesson applies to one (or two at most) large based speed 4 figures.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 12:39 AM |
| A look at this list has brought one of LG's biggest weaknesses to the top of my mind (which I hadn't really considered before). While there are some new options for hitters/titans/melee-commanders that can keep up with the battle (or at least arrive at the battle before the end of the game), there is really only one fodder/blocker that I think you should bother with: the Azer, everything else is just vinyl paperweights in a one hour match (even if you plop a few of said paperweights down on your start tile for activation control). To top that off, there are no effective blockers with anything decent for speed, just what are you going to be blocking anyways, back there with the supply train?
Speed Kills. Especially those who just can't keep up... | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 2:24 AM |
| Nice Job you guys. Thanks for the article. Can't wait for the rest. This and AesophDarkfable's Tech piece article are just what I needed.
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Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Zyla
Underboss
1197 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 3:27 AM |
| | I would put the Justicator on that list as well, its good for 48pts | |
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Dr.Cornelius
Warrior
338 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 4:39 AM |
| Dwarf Artificier is worth the 7 point premium over the Cleric of Moradin in warbands with three key, high-AC minis. Greater Magic Weapon and Rust Construct are also situationally useful.
Gold Dwarf Soldier is on the bubble. GDS hits reasonably hard for LG, has Cleave and is fearless when led by the Cleric of Dohl Arrah. | |
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kaiserluger
Warrior
319 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 7:17 AM |
| Excellent writeup.
My only addition is for the Azer Raider. His fire immunity makes him and optimal gauth, efreet, rez wizard etc screener. Hard to find a more useful 5 point unit. | |
Kaiserluger - | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 7:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kaiserluger
Excellent writeup.
My only addition is for the Azer Raider. His fire immunity makes him and optimal gauth, efreet, rez wizard etc screener. Hard to find a more useful 5 point unit.
Er, he's already on there. Look at the second entry under core toolkit.
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I am not gone. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 8:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TheBlackFlail
A look at this list has brought one of LG's biggest weaknesses to the top of my mind (which I hadn't really considered before). While there are some new options for hitters/titans/melee-commanders that can keep up with the battle (or at least arrive at the battle before the end of the game), there is really only one fodder/blocker that I think you should bother with: the Azer, everything else is just vinyl paperweights in a one hour match (even if you plop a few of said paperweights down on your start tile for activation control). To top that off, there are no effective blockers with anything decent for speed, just what are you going to be blocking anyways, back there with the supply train?
Speed Kills. Especially those who just can't keep up...
Well, blocking off assess to victory areas is one...
Fodder do not really need to keep up. Their primary role is to provide activation control. And if they also spend turn after turn surviving and blocking off approach routes, then they've done their job well. I've never had any complaints with my M@As, even though I'm a firm believer that speed 4 sucks.
Speed 4 kills, but only if its on your main pieces, not fodder... | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 9:00 AM |
| | Thanks for the toolkit and insight. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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