Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 11/01/2005 6:10 PM |
| | recovered topic 10735 | |
I am not gone. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 6:10 PM |
| | So why do you think some of your high-rated tech pieces (like the Mind Flayer Telepath and Half-Elf Hexblade) get little to no use? | |
I am not gone. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 6:11 PM |
| | Thanks to Chris Groves for the matrix idea. I was getting to that point in the original but didn't have it that clear and visual. Great input. Any comments or thoughts are always welcome. I adjusted the Pyro up in A for example as I think I wasn't calculating in the any resistance type flexibility (as pointed out by Jesse). | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 6:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So why do you think some of your high-rated tech pieces (like the Mind Flayer Telepath and Half-Elf Hexblade) get little to no use?
Thats a good question and the answer may fall into one of several categories.
1. My ratings are just wrong. Some of these I might be focusing too much on the piece as itself and not looking at synergies enough.
2. Cost. I should probably place a third score for their axis in relation to their cost. As I stated I feel any tech over 35 pts is generally a waste with few exceptions though so I thought I had that covered.
3. The meta is so reliant on hitters that just very often tech, however useful just doesn't replace a melee hitter.
4. The need to get to maxmime activations often overrides the value of tech. Activations is the ultimate tech, thus I think as we get to 8 activations these techs will be used more. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/01/2005 6:29 PM |
| | The move to 8 activations really seems to make some of the more pricy options more viable. I couldn't believe it, yesterday, I considered the hexblade again. With 8 figs, you can almost fit him into certain warbands. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
The move to 8 activations really seems to make some of the more pricy options more viable. I couldn't believe it, yesterday, I considered the hexblade again. With 8 figs, you can almost fit him into certain warbands.
Yeah this is what Im not sure on. For instance with 8 activations it seems to me that the hexblade becomes more viable. But you still have the what else can I get for this cost question and answers such as another Chraal or a Duergar Champion. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/01/2005 6:53 PM |
| | Exactly, I said "almost." If this were aberrations era LE, it would work a little better. But now the Duergar just says "why bother with that puny elf. Put me out in front and the orc'll never get to your one eye'd buddy anyway." The 8 fig change still makes the hexblade more viable, however the current figure selection makes it very difficult to choose such a figure, as a prime beater costs as much, and is almost always going to be worth the points. The hexblade's functionality hinges on a couple of saves. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
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Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/01/2005 7:29 PM |
| First, let me say "thank you" for the article. This is a great response to the whole malaise that the board seemed to be suffering from a little while back.quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
The key to good tech figures is cost.
Well, it's a key. I think that whether a tech piece, regardless of its cost, is useful depends an awful lot on what else is in the band. And, much depends upon what you typically face.
For example, Nebin, like you said, might see some new play. I don't know how many players are going to gravitate toward the "one-hit wonders" (pieces with a single, devastating attack, rather than two or more attacks), but, nothing quite takes the air out of a Thaskor or an Apsect of Kord quite like having to roll a Conceal check after the otherwise-virtually-guaranteed hit.
And, when it comes to using tech on your own pieces, while blur is good, I agree that snake's swiftness is usually better. But, it's not so useful if the only pieces you've packed into your band are Graycloaks.
Still, the cost-is-key point is a good one; and thanks for the article.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 8:33 PM |
| An excellent article.
Thank you from the bottom of my dice bag. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 11/01/2005 9:16 PM |
| I know that our local game doesn't follow the national metagame very closely. LanceH always includes Nebin for his blur spells. It was the difference between a win and a loss in our first game against each other. I used a Hexblade to great effect in a recent Epic tournament. All of those Save=10's out there mean that his curse hits 40% of the time on some big ugly things, which isn't too shabby. Hexblade+Mina+HRD means an easy 55 damage on pretty much anything out there.
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 5:20 AM |
| | Great article. As you said, you should include cost in the equation though. It will probably change the picture quite a bit. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2401 Posts
London
| | 11/02/2005 6:06 AM |
| Thanks AesophDarkfable, an interesting analysis.ΖD]
You seem to like countersong more than I do. Possibly it's the combination of radius:6 and I keep forgetting to apply it's efffects during gameplay. May be I should paint the bases of all my countersong units florescent green to help me remember....[:o)]
The Satyr was fairly effective in the pre-release, making it much easier to use the Death Slaad's Rend. Can't get that specific combo in a constructed game. But Whirlwind strike may become more usable. And the DR-5+ranged attack should give it some use sniping at enemy filler (elf warriors etc) while it waits for the critical round to use it's pipes.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 9:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lantern314
I know that our local game doesn't follow the national metagame very closely. LanceH always includes Nebin for his blur spells. It was the difference between a win and a loss in our first game against each other. I used a Hexblade to great effect in a recent Epic tournament. All of those Save=10's out there mean that his curse hits 40% of the time on some big ugly things, which isn't too shabby. Hexblade+Mina+HRD means an easy 55 damage on pretty much anything out there.
Yeah I should probably also note this is 200. The hexblade is veyr different in old 500 with all the save 10s. In the new 500 epic though there are alot over 10 so less valuable. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 11:08 AM |
| Do you not consider the cursed spirit a strong Tech piece?
(or is the ability to fly through walls and modify saves not really tech?) I give him A5B4 (based on your elegant rating system).
I also think Trog is almost as good as taer for one point less....
(depends on your metagame - no cold resistance, but also not a giant)
I give him A4B3. | |
Let it be. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 11:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
Do you not consider the cursed spirit a strong Tech piece?
(or is the ability to fly through walls and modify saves not really tech?) I give him A5B4 (based on your elegant rating system).
I also think Trog is almost as good as taer for one point less....
(depends on your metagame - no cold resistance, but also not a giant)
I give him A4B3.
Good point, dont know how he got left out the list. Yeah, he is on there for sure. Ive got some updates to do tonight when I get home. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 11:40 AM |
| I like your scoring system. So if we look at things tech pieces are rated here based on:
- How useful the tech is
- How easy it is to bring the tech to bear
Another thing I'd almost like to see addressed is
- Can the figure participate in other ways every round
Me, personally, I have a philosophy. Everyone in my warbands is doing something every round. Maybe that's just moving to get people in a commander area, maybe it's making a (token) attack. My problem with Nebbin, Eberk are not that their tech isn't handy to have ... it's that they can't contribute somehow every round. I wonder if that's a third category. I think it is what makes the Couatl and others see far more play ... not only can they bring the tech to bear but, if there's not a good choice for Snake's Swiftness it can still heal someone, sonic orb someone, etc. The Couatl can continue to contribute every round. The Crow Shaman throw that little axe of his and the Halfling Wizard has unlimited magic missiles. The drider, back in the day, had blurs, transpositions, more lightning bolts that Zeus himself and a bow. Even if he couldn't do anything else he could still plink off a shot somewhere.
Hmm ....
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 11:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I like your scoring system. So if we look at things tech pieces are rated here based on:
- How useful the tech is
- How easy it is to bring the tech to bear
Another thing I'd almost like to see addressed is
- Can the figure participate in other ways every round
Me, personally, I have a philosophy. Everyone in my warbands is doing something every round. Maybe that's just moving to get people in a commander area, maybe it's making a (token) attack. My problem with Nebbin, Eberk are not that their tech isn't handy to have ... it's that they can't contribute somehow every round. I wonder if that's a third category. I think it is what makes the Couatl and others see far more play ... not only can they bring the tech to bear but, if there's not a good choice for Snake's Swiftness it can still heal someone, sonic orb someone, etc. The Couatl can continue to contribute every round. The Crow Shaman throw that little axe of his and the Halfling Wizard has unlimited magic missiles. The drider, back in the day, had blurs, transpositions, more lightning bolts that Zeus himself and a bow. Even if he couldn't do anything else he could still plink off a shot somewhere.
Hmm ....
Another very good point. This went into a little of my calculating but I think it needs to be more explicit. Will work into v 1.2 | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 12:21 PM |
| When you add the Trog to v1.2, add the Harpy too. Consider adding the Quasit or Dretch if you have time.
The Gibbering Mouther or Spider Swarm could also be considered tech... albiet random tech. You included some guys in your assessment that aren't Tier 1 though... so these guys could sneak in.
If the mouther shows up on a blocking tile, it's quickened confusion burst can get the whole enemy warband on turn one. The Spider Swarm, similarly, can try to poison most of the enemy warband. I'd classify both as tech because it kneecaps the way an opponent can play against you right out of the gate and messes with his weaker early activations.
Great article. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
When you add the Trog to v1.2, add the Harpy too. Consider adding the Quasit or Dretch if you have time.
The Gibbering Mouther or Spider Swarm could also be considered tech... albiet random tech. You included some guys in your assessment that aren't Tier 1 though... so these guys could sneak in.
If the mouther shows up on a blocking tile, it's quickened confusion burst can get the whole enemy warband on turn one. The Spider Swarm, similarly, can try to poison most of the enemy warband. I'd classify both as tech because it kneecaps the way an opponent can play against you right out of the gate and messes with his weaker early activations.
Great article.
I thought the trog was in there. Its right under taer and says see Taer. I considered the spider swarm, but it is more of a meatshieldish type and I dont consider poison tech really, but if others do I will put it in. The quasit is one I almost put in and probably should have.
Though not everything I list is T1, these in my opinion are figures that might be worthy of that. the T1 of tech I guess :) | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 11/02/2005 12:57 PM |
| Very nice article.
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They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 1:05 PM |
| Dark Moon Monk also has "turn off your opponent's spellcaster" tech: high speed + true strike + stunning attack.
I think the Deathlock is both more useful and easier to use than you give it credit for.
I predict Lolth's Sting will be a key tech piece in the months to come. Very cheap for a tech piece, but being able to walk right through your opponent's lines and give someone the sleepy-stab is a good trick.
I suggest adding the Grim Necromancer as a comparison "bad tech" piece. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 1:06 PM |
| I think something important you left out in the usability vs. ease of use comparisons is how frequently their cost ends up being worhtwhile based on synergies and general environment. While to some degree these can and should be attributed to the local metagame, I think some generalizations can be made.
For example you gave the half-elf hexblade a high rating in both ease of use and in usefulness, but how frequently is anyone willing to pay the 33 points that are required to put the hexblade in their warband, when other options are available. (Especially with figures like the Chraal and Duergar Champion available.) Low price, generally useful pieces such as Devis, the low-level stench beasts, and Aramil however, frequently end up performing manuvers that end up being worth their cost many times over and, if they don't, aren't so much of an investment that it puts you in a negative position if you don't pull them off. Other pieces, like the Elf Pyromancer, have a combination of abilities that can be very, very useful especially with the abundance of energy damage running around these days and the fact that it is one of the very few cost-efficient minis with a fireball.
Here is a general model of how I would probably assign them their cost/value ratings based on the minis you noted.
Worth Cost
Aramil
Crow Shaman
Devis
Elf Pyromancer
Gauth
Troglodyte/Taer
Sometimes Worth Cost
Mialee
Dark Moon Monk
Standard Bearer
Mind Flayer Telepath
Voice of Battle
Dwarf Wizard
Deathlok
Wand Expert
Lantern Bearer (provisional)
Satyr (provisional)
Wizard Tactician (provisional)
Almost Never Worth Cost
Nebbin
Bronze Wyrmling
Half-elf Hexblade
Dwarf Artificer
Grell
Thorn
Vargoouille | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 1:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Vargouille
I reluctantly have to agree. People seem to still think this guy has some promise with the Duergar and Chraal, but I think he is just too slow. The Timmy in me forced me to play him a few times, but he has trouble getting into action until after the fodder war.
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Bronze Wyrmling
This also shows how bad of a player I am, but I am conflicted on the Wyrmling. Do you think it would be better to use a monk as a tilegrabber in a non-monk band? I just can't find a better option at the moment unless you want to spend 33+ points. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 1:39 PM |
| Honestly, I don't think that getting tile points first round are that important for LG bands, especially with the new maps where it allows you to punish the oppossing player in fun and interesting ways for going after first turn tile points.
Also, with the advent of the new OOC rules if I felt I absolutely needed a tile grabber in my band I would include a timber wolf. 5 points. Speed 10.
Zing. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 2:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Here is a general model of how I would probably assign them their cost/value ratings based on the minis you noted.
Worth Cost
Aramil
Crow Shaman
Devis
Elf Pyromancer
Gauth
Troglodyte/Taer
I find it interesting that 4 out of the 6 tech you outline are in CG (including Aramil). In my mind, LE should have the most useful tech. Seems to fit their faction best. But unfortunately, they don't. | |
Champion of Neogi
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 2:10 PM |
| | Yeah, I think CE has some very solid tech too, and LG isn't hurting too bad, but LE has a definite lack of good low-cost tech figures to play with. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 2:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I'd take the Gauth off of the tech list ... it is a pure offensive threat. He's a hitter without fists or armor.
Thats interesting. That boils down to the same as poison. What is tech? I consider stun and paralysis tech. But im not sure if I consider poison tech. Is paralysis tech? is stun tech? If stun is tech what does it take to be considered tech? a gravehound has unlimited stun vs a wolf's one stun. Are either of those tech? | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 11/02/2005 3:08 PM |
| In my opinion, paying more than 15 points for tech is asking for trouble. Paying more than 30 points for tech is certifiably insane. There are few tech figures that cost more than 30 points that are truly worth it. The Gauth gives you an offensive punch that is very difficult to counter. It’s more than just tech. Same goes for the Couatl and the Dark Naga. These figures simply bring more to the table than your average high point tech by virtue of Commander Effects or offensive threats.
In my estimation usefulness is tied to point cost. A creature can have an incredibly powerful ability, but if it costs too much, it just won’t work in any warband. Ease of use is less important to me, but I can see where it would be more important to new player. So fore me, Usefulness (A) is worth twice as much as Ease of Use (B). Some figures get a boost on usefulness for being lower cost. Some lose points for being too high cost.
Let me know what you think.
Aramil (LG/CG 14pts)- You’re right to note the ray as the major component of Aramil’s tech, but I would add the following… Magic Missile is incredibly useful. I’ve had games where a well placed magic missile has caused the morale check I sorely needed to turn the tide. One other thing you missed in your recap is that Aramil comes with a decent ranged attack for his price. Aramil is very efficient for his cost and I agree with your rating… A5, B2
Crow Shaman (CG 26pts)- I also like the Crow Shaman quite a bit. The problem I’m finding right now, however, is that in order to be effective the Crow Shaman needs some heavy hitters. Unfortunately, the Crow Shaman’s cost has become a hindrance to his use. At that price, he should provide some form of offensive punch beyond the Snake’s Swiftness. With the advent of the Chraal, placing the Crow Shaman so that it is out of cone range has become very difficult. I would rate the Crow Shaman A3, B4
Devis (CG 6pts)- Devis is a good piece that dies easily, but if he can somehow make his saves (vs. area of effect and morale), he can last a very long time if surrounded by beefy hitters. I personally think you’re rating Countersong much higher than I would. One thing that is important to note, if Devis does survive the area of effect that will inevitably ensnare him, he usually gets off both of his spells, even if they are fairly weak. I’m also not so sure that an always on ability is that much easier to use than a single casting of a spell. A3, B3
Elf Pyromancer (CG 32 pts)- I have no idea how you can give Aramil a B2 and give the Elf Pyromancer a B1. Other than that I agree with your assessment A4 B2
Nebin (CG 16 pts)- His usefulness is probably OK at A2, but his ease of use isn’t all that bad. His only hindrance is speed 4 and his major buff spell will be cast in the starting area. I would at least give him an A2,B1
Mialee (LG/CG 6pts)- Mialee is a great source for Magic Weapon, the fact that she also comes with Magic Missile is a bonus. I agree with your rating here. #61514;
Dark Moon Monk (LE 15pts)- The problem with the Dark Moon Monk is that she has very little utility outside of the Magic Weapons. It generally makes more sense to use the Kobold Sorcerer instead as he gives you more options as a secondary commander. I would rate the Dark Moon Monk A2, B3
Gauth (LE 39)- I can’t deny that the Gauth is a great piece. It’s only drawback is speed. Because of that, I would rate it a little lower on ease of use. A5, B4
Bronze Wyrmling (LG 24pts)- I agree that the usefulness of the Bronze Wyrmling is fairly low… especially at that cost. Nothing to change here.
Standardbearer (LG 10pts)- The Standardbearer could see more use in the 8 figure limit, but I doubt it. Countersong and Relay Orders is nice, but it’s not enough to “waste” an activation on this creature… especially for a faction that seems to be designed to stick close to the commander. Now, if a future LG mini came with a Standardbearer minion, that would certainly change things. A3, B4
Halfelf Hexblade (LE 33pts)- Sorry, but the cost on this figure is simply prohibitive in 200 points. As much as I love this fig, I can’t honestly say that it’s usefulness is that high. A3, B3
Mind Flayer Telepath (LE 38pts)- With the change to the speed 2 rule, this creature loses some effectiveness. It also suffers from the fact that few creatures in its faction can truly capitalize on the Psychic Scream. A3, B5
Taer & Troglodyte (CE 8 & 7pts)- Stench is a very powerful ability. The Trog and the Taer are, I think, the cheapest figs with that ability. The Trog is generally easier to fit into a warband (what a difference one point makes). The main problem is players learning how to place the Trog so that he doesn’t affect your own creatures. I would rate the Trog A4, B2 and the Taer A3, B2
Dwarf Artificer (LG 21pts)- I’m sure you remember my extremely long rant about the Dwarf Artificer. He could have been so much more, but oh well, it just wasn’t meant to be. His spells aren’t all that useful. LG needs more damage, not AC. His speed 4 is an incredible hindrance, especially if he’s ever going to get that Greater Magic Weapon off. A2, B1
Voice of Battle (CG 29pts)- Improved Countersong is an intriguing ability, but that’s all the Voice of Battle brings to the table and at 29 points that’s just not enough. Would it have killed the designers to give her one decent sight spell. Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is fine, but at DC13, it’s just not powerful enough to make much of a difference. A2, B3
Grell (LE 26pts)- Not much to say here, I think you nailed it. The Grell’s paralysis is useful, but you’ll be lucky to get more than one chance to use it. A3, B1
Dwarf Wizard (LG 21 pts)- Bigby’s slapping hand is the poor man’s Snake’s Swiftness. That said, if your warband design does not make use of the Couatl, I can see where the Dwarf Wizard may find a niche. A3, B1
Deathlok (CE 12 pts) –I think you don’t give this creature the credit it deserves. There are some new creatures, like Rikka, that can be easily countered by this 12 point piece. Imagine the look on your opponent’s face when his Waylaying Rikka is routed off the board by the Deathlok. On top of that the two magic missiles provide excellent fodder clearing or could be just the damage you need to force a morale check. A3, B3
Thorn (CG 23pts)- The Thorn is great in sealed, but at 23 pts I can’t see him getting much use in constructed. The sleep poison is nice, but not at that price. A2, B1
Wand Expert (CG 33pts)- Nothing to say here, I agree. :)
Vargouille (LE 12pts)- Another one that I agree with.
Lantern Bearer (LG 12pts)- I think this figure is at the crossroads. His abilities are useful, but I wouldn’t say they’re game breakers. His speed is definitely an issue, especially since the figures I would like to use him most with are highly maneuverable (you know… flying). A4, B1 (B3 if the warband is slow).
Satyr (CG 15pts)- I think Countersong is nice, but we all know that the reason this creature would be included in a warband is for the Pipes. I still have to playtest, but I think this creature could really be a winner. A4, B5
Wizard Tactician (CG 27pts)- Again, Bigby’s is the poor man’s Snakes Swiftness, but this creature has the incredible benefit of never having to be close to the frontlines in order to choose a target. That makes the ease of use incredible, but it doesn’t change the fact that it costs 27 points which in my opinion is too much (at least for CG anyway). A2, B5
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 3:14 PM |
| | The aramil/pyro distinction cames because I wasnt looking at the offensive abilities with it. The pyro has buffs which are more difficult to use without slowing you down. Aramil with offensive tech in the RoE can moveforward more in the deployment stages of the games and not slow up your entire offense. This is an overall problem with my ratings I think is I was trying to examine just the tech itself and not the total package. in v1.1 I will be adding the commander tech figures and also looking more at the entire package of the figures. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 11/02/2005 3:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
The aramil/pyro distinction cames because I wasnt looking at the offensive abilities with it. The pyro has buffs which are more difficult to use without slowing you down. Aramil with offensive tech in the RoE can moveforward more in the deployment stages of the games and not slow up your entire offense. This is an overall problem with my ratings I think is I was trying to examine just the tech itself and not the total package. in v1.1 I will be adding the commander tech figures and also looking more at the entire package of the figures.
Here's the thing... Pyro has speed 6. He casts Immunity or Fireball in Round 1 and moves six spaces. If Fireball was cast in Round 1, his target for immunity must end it's movement within 6 squares of Pyro. In other words, the target of immunity can move up to 12 squares away from the starting area. For some figures this can be full movement. For others it might mean that they're slowed down by a maximum of 4 squares. In the long run it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Oh... and thanks for the analysis. I can't wait to see version 1.1 :)
--sam | |
I'm in Urbana, IL | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 11:55 PM |
| I seem to recall that there used to be an excellent 30 point tech piece out there. Now banned, but certainly there used to be. So, if the right tech comes along, 30 points might not be soooo insane, right Sam?
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Let it be. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 11/03/2005 12:07 AM |
| | Thanks for teh article - good reading & pondering | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/03/2005 12:20 AM |
| | I think you are rating countersong too high. There are very few commander effects that make a significant difference and need to be countered. The Couatl's is about the only one. The Balor's is another one to fear but the Balor is turning out to be too expensive to see much tournament play. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/03/2005 12:23 AM |
| | BTW - Aramil costs 13 points, Nebin costs 18, and the Thorn is 24 points. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 1:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
I think you are rating countersong too high. There are very few commander effects that make a significant difference and need to be countered. The Couatl's is about the only one. The Balor's is another one to fear but the Balor is turning out to be too expensive to see much tournament play.
It is something to consider. But as a tech thats rather simple to use, is always on, and has a major effect (even if its simply stopping a tiefling from giving 19-20 crits) I think that it is very effective. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 2:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Thats interesting. That boils down to the same as poison. What is tech? I consider stun and paralysis tech. But im not sure if I consider poison tech. Is paralysis tech? is stun tech? If stun is tech what does it take to be considered tech? a gravehound has unlimited stun vs a wolf's one stun. Are either of those tech?
It seems as though some folks are considering that anything that doesn't cause damage or lead to the potential for immediate damage (like Paralysis or Sleep) is 'tech'.
I think that might be a false distinction created by misunderstanding the object of the game. Some folks build warbands as if the object was to do more damage to your opponent than you take yourself. Granted, this is a path to victory, but just a path.
The actual object of the game is to outpoint your opponent.
I've been playing more CE lately, and trying to avoid the typical 'beater bands' that most folks think CE has to do to be competitive, and I'm finding that the Choker is an amazing piece - his Cave Setup means that you can place him on a scoring tile at the beginning of the game, his abilities make it likely that he can defeat one (or even two) fodder pieces sent to chase him off, and his Dual Activation adds activations to your warband without adding figures, which increases your tactical flexibility.
I think part of the reason we're not seeing many Cave Setup areas on maps that have been released thus far is that, in an eight figure regime, the Choker becomes a no-brainer piece for CE to play: right now, CE does better to fill out activations with three Orc Warriors at 9 points than a single Choker at 14; that extra five points can mean a lot. But in an eight-figure regime, there's not much difference between a 14 point Choker and two 7 point Orc Savages, except the Choker has more flexible placement and saves you a figure slot for another piece if you can find the points elsewhere.
OK, this is kind of wandering off the topic, but the point is, is the Choker tech? I don't think so - I think it's a solid piece to give points to your warband. So where is the line between tech and solid pieces?
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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infernis
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 3:54 AM |
| It may be that I don't understand the calculations and all, but wouldn't a Beholder be considered tech also? Medium Silver Dragon's +2 bonus to Morale Saves? Dwarf Ancestor's ability to have all dwarf followers considered to be within 6 squares of all dwarven commanders regardless of their position?
Just some other thoughts I had. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/03/2005 8:31 AM |
| | Me personally - I consider the Choker a tech piece. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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