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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
    
 | | 11/02/2005 5:49 PM |
| | recovered topic 10791 | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 5:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
The Iron Golem is vastly different from the Chraal in 2 important ways, speed and cost. Speed 4 is a killer. (As I write that speed 4 is a killer, I am thinking about how much I like the Gold Dwarf Soldier. Shows what a hypocrit I am.) Also at 61 points per, you won't be able to afford enough of them to protect your commander.
I like the gold dwarf soldier tons too. I'm not sure it'll see lots of use, but speed 4 on a 17 point figure that inflicts 15 magic damage is very different than speed 4 on a 61 point figure that doesn't even double that damage (and is nonmagic to boot). The dwarf can pay for itself damagewise with 2 rounds' worth of swings. The Golem needs four rounds minimum, which it will not get.
Oh, and I l-o-v-e the Duergar. I wouldn't be surprised to see it replace the Chrall as the standard LE hitter. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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andytum
Sergeant
400 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 5:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
I like the gold dwarf soldier tons too. I'm not sure it'll see lots of use, but speed 4 on a 17 point figure that inflicts 15 magic damage is very different than speed 4 on a 67 point figure that doesn't even double that damage. The dwarf can pay for itself damagewise with 2 rounds' worth of swings. The Golem needs four rounds minimum, which it will not get.
And the Gold Dwarf Soldier can benefit from Battle Plate Marshall's GDMA, that can make up a little bit for his low speed.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/02/2005 6:14 PM |
| My predicitons:
1) Grimlock Barbarians will surprise many people by seeing competitive play - primarily due to their costing at less than 30 points, while still allowing a conditional decent attack bonus and decent damage. This will be the most popular CE figure from this set after a few months. In their shadow, Drow Arcane Guards will also find a place in competitive warbands.
2) Nentyar Hunters will make friends with Xen'drik Champions, as the Xen'dricks are cheapish figures with both melee and missile capability.
3) Iron Golem and other slow figures, will see an upsurge in use after the switch to maps. But until then, no speed 4 melee combatant will be truly viable. Other figures from this set that will leap up in viability at the switch to maps: Half-orc paladin, BPM.
4) Duergar Champions will have an initial leap into many warbands, but will quickly disappear from competitive play as Chraals continue to dominate as the LE medium basher.
5) Aspect of Kord will be the Epic piece to beat from this set. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 6:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
My predicitons:
4) Duergar Champions will have an initial leap into many warbands, but will quickly disappear from competitive play as Chraals continue to dominate as the LE medium basher.
What makes you think so? Not that I disagree, mind you, it just seems to me that the Duergar has enough advantages (better attack bonus, better damage type, higher level, conceal, no fire vulnerability, slightly cheaper) to make up for the loss in hit points, speed and armor class and become a good alternative. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 2 chrall/ 1 duergar or 2 duergar/1 chrall band become more common than the three chrall band. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/02/2005 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
My predicitons:
1) Grimlock Barbarians will surprise many people by seeing competitive play - primarily due to their costing at less than 30 points, while still allowing a conditional decent attack bonus and decent damage. This will be the most popular CE figure from this set after a few months. In their shadow, Drow Arcane Guards will also find a place in competitive warbands.
2) Nentyar Hunters will make friends with Xen'drik Champions, as the Xen'dricks are cheapish figures with both melee and missile capability.
3) Iron Golem and other slow figures, will see an upsurge in use after the switch to maps. But until then, no speed 4 melee combatant will be truly viable. Other figures from this set that will leap up in viability at the switch to maps: Half-orc paladin, BPM.
4) Duergar Champions will have an initial leap into many warbands, but will quickly disappear from competitive play as Chraals continue to dominate as the LE medium basher.
5) Aspect of Kord will be the Epic piece to beat from this set.
1) I already saw that coming in the pre-release and I think you're right.
2) It's possible that the Nentyar will bring back the HEBI; but I think ranged bands are a thing of the past until we see something like the Nentyar but doing 10 magic against everything.
3) Agreed.
4) Probably, much depends upon what the other cold figures turn out to be. A Couatl weakens the Chraal more than it does the Duergar Champ.
5) No comment, I'm too out of the loop on epic.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 6:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
1) Grimlock Barbarians will surprise many people by seeing competitive play - primarily due to their costing at less than 30 points, while still allowing a conditional decent attack bonus and decent damage. This will be the most popular CE figure from this set after a few months. In their shadow, Drow Arcane Guards will also find a place in competitive warbands.
Man, I just can't see this. I'll grant that it fills a niche, and your sample warband in the other thread looked pretty solid, but I can't shake the feeling that this guy is more flash than substance. Proof'll be in the pudding, I guess.
quote:
5) Aspect of Kord will be the Epic piece to beat from this set.
Unfortunately, this is more a case of "best of a bad lot". The only real competition he has would be from Elminster and the Death Slaad, and I agree he's better than either. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 7:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
1. The Gith monk will make monk theme bands more viable and will appear in many LG bands in general. Wizards got a monk right.
Some Monk-theme bands, but more likely an inclusion in many normal LG multi-hitter bands (sub for a JA).
quote:
2. The Iron Golem will prove to be unseccessful. I believe that the Chraal has lulled people into thinking that Requires Commander is not a big drawback. The Iron Golem is vastly different from the Chraal in 2 important ways, speed and cost. Speed 4 is a killer. (As I write that speed 4 is a killer, I am thinking about how much I like the Gold Dwarf Soldier. Shows what a hypocrit I am.) Also at 61 points per, you won't be able to afford enough of them to protect your commander.
Will see play until the next qualifier / tournament season but not at Nationals next year. It survivies but lacks the offensive burst of the Chraal's breath weapon.
quote:
3. The Nentyar hunter will be more successful than the Valenar but will still far short of making ranged bands highly successful. The cost of the Nentyar is high and you will still need some melee blockers. Those will limit the number of archers you can use.
Unsure on this one; being a plant makes here somewhat reliable. Yes, needs blockers.
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4. The threat of Rikka and the Wizard Tactician will be greater than the use of either figures. The thought that you might run into them will change band building with one soft commander(ie. Inspiring Marshal, Tiefling) on the short term. The changing bands will also limit the effectiveness of these figures.
The same can be said of the Archmage, the Beholder, the Pyromancer, etc. It will affect construction more than the actual play it receives. When it does show up though it can be a big spoiler.
Rikka will see more play in LG than CG. Gut reaction.
quote:
5. Artemis will be used in some fun ways but the right band for him will prove elusive much like the Red Wizard.
Worse than the Red Wizard, but similar. He doesn't have the right band-mates yet.
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6. The Duergar Champion will appear in more successful bands than anyother non-fodder piece in this set. Not that he the best piece in LE, just that he can be used in wide variety of bands.
What he'll do more than anything is allow folks to run more of the good but not REALLY survivable LE commanders more easily as you won't have to risk Chraals. Rakshasa, Dark Naga will likely use these guys.
quote:
7. The Efreeti will curse the introduction of the Helmed Horror into LE after just one set. Not that the Efreeti was a huge power piece to begin with but the Helmed Horror will push | |
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 7:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
CE is missing a good-enough figure to allow you to run the Balor, Tiefling and two hitter/threats.
Not that the following necessarily qualifies as "good-enough," but it's food for thought and may bring enough credible threats to the table:
Balor
Tiefling
2x Grimlock Barbarian
28 points of tech & filler
Heck, if you want to go wacky, you could turn the 28 points of tech/filler into another Grimlock Barbarian. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 7:46 PM |
| The more I think about the Balor, the more I think you have to make it so nothing wants to stand around and try to kill him.
It seems like his partners should be a Ravager and a Cursed Spirit. Nobody really stands next to a Ravager and ignores it in favor of another target.
The Ravager, at least, has high saves and won't route off the board immediately.
Then perhaps a Trog Barbarian, which has some staying power... and activation filler.
All of this makes it tougher for an enemy to risk coming in on the Balor if his save can be lowered by as much as 6 prior to a Ravager Smite forcing a morale check.
Just like the Lich Necromancer needs help to focus on it's Paralysis, the Balor only really pays for itself with Enslave, which only happens to a unit more than half the time if they have a 75% chance to fail their initial save.
Create that situation, and force morale checks on two units, and it's likely that you'll enslave at least one.
Not to mention that the Ravager is unfriendly to low AC, high Damage pieces like Orc Champs that can wade in and route the balor with three hits.
No matter what, it's tough to picture the Balor in a Tier 1 band. | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 8:14 PM |
| | Are these comments based on the current tile version or the upcoming map version of the game. Will the pieces be the same either way? | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 8:37 PM |
| I don't think that the helmed horrer will replace the efreeti, simply because they are different pieces entirely, the efreeti is a melee fighter with some nice ranged spells, while the HH is much closer to a chraal, in that it is a tough piece that's got decent (but no more then decent) melee capabilities. The problem I see with the HH is that he can basically be ignored by anything with DR or resist fire (cough cough justice archons with couatl cough) and is pretty easy to walk (or fly) around.
I agree that the efreeti is not a power piece at the moment, but I think that it has the potential to be one.
The iron golem I have hope for yet- particularly in epic where you can toss a beholder in for increased mobility. Also note that Lord Soth has speed four, hits at far worse bonuses and is way less tough, yet still sees play. Hmm...Soth+Iron Golem...
I also have hope for the hunched giant- sure it's no ravager, but played defensively it could work- toss in a hezrou to boost the melee attack a bit and get a second solid hitter, and two HG could be a force
The grimlock and drow arcane guard will vye for places, and I think, often find them as well (particularly the grimlock, he's an unmatched damager for his cost, just hold him back and use him to finish off wounded stuff, thus getting your really big hitters another attack on something unwounded)
The MSD is also going to be a piece that sees some table time, though not a lot, perhaps if a non-fearless option comes up for LG it will be more used. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 10:10 PM |
| | The monk band comment. I agree that we are making a step in the right direction for a strong monk band but I still think it's a ways off. I do love the new monk though. He's especially great in sealed. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 10:42 PM |
| I would love to see a CE piece with Improved Countersong. THAT might be the "Synergy" piece that Balor is looking for. Someone that can take away commander bonuses to MCs.
Im pretty sure Im gonna try to fit in a bard into all my CG bands to see if it works as I expect it. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 9:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
That's exactly why I like the Grimlock ... CE missing a good figure in that price range; I'm just not 100% sold on him yet.
Six months ago, when the scene was still dominated by -Fecta hitters that generally didn't clear 14ac, the Grimlok would have been devastating, one of the best mini in underdark for certain.
But look at the range of figures folks are considering important additions. Several of them have a 25ac, which would give even a +11/+6 attack real problems, never mind a +7/+2. Chralls, with their 21ac, would tear the barbs apart, even after they are wounded.
That said, it DOES fill a niche, and it is an efficient piece. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it saw plenty of play, and I've predictions seen much shakier than jsjudgen's proven true | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 11/03/2005 10:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
4. The threat of Rikka and the Wizard Tactician will be greater than the use of either figures. The thought that you might run into them will change band building with one soft commander(ie. Inspiring Marshal, Tiefling) on the short term. The changing bands will also limit the effectiveness of these figures.
That's almost the equivalent of saying that both Rikka & the Inspiring Marshal will become Tier-2. i.e. they can win against some opponents, but not against the full spectrum of Tier-1 warbands.
I think Rikka will be in Tier-1 regardless. She is a cost-effective melee unit which can always get assault points on round:1. Waylaying the enemy commander/spellcasters is just iceing on the cake.
Your probably correct that the Wizard tactician is Tier-2 (or less) Amoungst the usual problems with any spellcaster, the Tactician is itself vulnerable to Rikka (but not vis-versa) | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 9:29 PM |
| The fear of the Balor, Rikka and the Aspect (mv 10) will make running any Required Commander heavy band difficult. Until Balor fever runs out, even the Orog and HBG look too squishy to tie in 150-160 points into. Damn thing is a beast if it bases the commander (and with f8 good luck avoiding it). Rikka is great for putting the final digs in, and the aspect of Kord is just really mobile if you can win the tile strategy game.
Oh, the Grimlock Barb ain't too shabby either for a Wal-Mart Hitter band (I ran Balor, 2 x Grim Barb, Taer, 2x Deathlock & fodder tonight - meant to use a cursed spirit but I cant find them :( ). Deathlocks were a lot of fun putting the wound on 4 enemies or for raising the Balor's CR, plus my only enslaves were through their cause fear spells. Can't wait until tomorrow so I can experiment with a few more minis.
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 11:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
My predicitons:
And my comments on the predictions... ;)
quote:
1) Grimlock Barbarians will surprise many people by seeing competitive play - primarily due to their costing at less than 30 points, while still allowing a conditional decent attack bonus and decent damage. This will be the most popular CE figure from this set after a few months. In their shadow, Drow Arcane Guards will also find a place in competitive warbands.
Absolutely agree on the Grimlock Barbarian. The Grimlock and a Deathlock can tag team in a single phase to give Grimmy a +11 attack bonus easy against most targets. If Grimmy has a flank, that goes to +13. Even a 21AC isn't going to feel comfortable going up against that. And the default magic damage is a boon for a faction that has few options to pass out magic weapon.
More important, however, is the cost. For a while, folks are going to feel leery about playing squishy commanders like the Tiefling Captain. The problem is, what do you play instead? There isn't anything in the Tiefling's cost range that's not squishy, so to upgrade the commander, you'll need to shave points from somewhere else. Depending on your local meta, swapping out an Orc Champ or Ogre Ravager (or Red Sam, if you're already in the eight-figure, post-Chraal era) for a Grimmy can free up enough points to get you that tougher commander, and once people start playing him regularly, they'll see that his base attack isn't as big a limitation as it appears at first glance, so long as you're not forced into a position where you have to attack with him or lose him before you get your position set up.
I'm liking the Drow Arcane Guards myself, and will be trying to find places to use them. I'm thinking that I'll find, yet again, that 35HP with Conceal 11 isn't as good as even 55HP without, because you can't count on your opponent failing that Conceal (or Spell Resistance) check at the key moment of battle.
quote:
2) Nentyar Hunters will make friends with Xen'drik Champions, as the Xen'dricks are cheapish figures with both melee and missile capability.
Not so sure about this. Yes, you saw a number of them together at the various pre-releases, but in constructed I think there are more interesting options to try and take advantage of her CE. One I'm planning to try (assuming I can lay hands on a Nentyar beforehand) at our next casual DDM session is a band that pairs the Nentyar with a couple of Thorns - effectively doubling the rate of fire of a creature with a DC16 Sleep effect seems intuitively like something that might be worth exploring.
quote:
3) Iron Golem and other slow figures, will see an upsurge in use after the switch to maps. But until then, no speed 4 melee combatant will be truly viable. Other figures from this set that will leap up in viability at the switch to maps: Half-orc paladin, BPM.
Disagree on both the Golem and BPM observations - both figures looked very strong in the pre-releases, and both have abilities that make their speed less significant. In the BPM's case, it's his Grant Dwarves Move Action; it's not as though you want your BPM leading the charge anyway, and the ability to be-bop your Dwarves an extra four squares can be key in the right circumstance. (The Anvil of Thunder, in particular, has been praying for a piece like this for some time, while the GDMA may be the only way you'll be able to get a Dwarf Artificer close enough to drop his Rust Construct on an enemy fig.) In the Golem's case, it's his big, fearless ability, once he reaches his ground, to stand there and hold it. Not to mention that the epic Iron Golem is probably a cure for the recent popularity of multiple Beholders in our local 500-point tourneys.
As for the Half-Orc Paladin, I'll just say that my first post-Underdark band that I actually had the figures to build is a 200 point Half-Orc Pally band - time will tell if it's any good, but I have high hopes...
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4) Duergar Champions will have an initial leap into many warbands, but will quickly disappear from competitive play as Chraals continue to dominate as the LE medium basher.
Absolutely disagree about this, unless the Medium Silver Dragon and the Helmed Horror prove far less popular than I imagine. The Medium Silver will make most big Chraal commanders (Human Blackguard, Orog Warlord) too vulnerable for play, and the Horrors will be able to deal with the rest (Lord Soth). The sudden vulnerability of Chraal commanders will make people look around for alternative mid-range LE beaters, and the Duergar Champ will be right there.
My counter-prediction: there were folks who thought that the Chain Devil in Angelfire might make the Warpriest of Hextor more playable, though that didn't turn out to be the case. It is my belief that the Duergar Champion will do for the Warpriest what the Chain Devil could not - +15/+10 and Cleave can give a lot of opportunities for the use of the Warpriest's CE.
quote:
5) Aspect of Kord will be the Epic piece to beat from this set.
Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. Epic Elminster still looks awfully dangerous to me, especially since it seems like an absolute no-brainer to pair him up with an Archmage and a Cleric of Dol'Arrah and let the rest of the points fall where they may.
I'm also looking forward to trying out Epic Artemis Entreri; even in Epic there aren't a whole lot of critters who can just shrug off a 70 point initial hit (20 magic +10 ranged sneak attack +40 Backstab), and his Epic version addresses perhaps his biggest weakness over his non-Epic version by adding Blind-Fight to the card.
It'll definitely be fun to see how it plays out.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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