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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 4:51 PM |
| There are so many pieces that are simply on the cusp; close ... but that haven't quite broken into the foreground. They've got the stats but simply haven't been able to work their way into a successful tournament build. Keeping these around is an investment in the future and not based on their current productive value.
The Dark Traveler has all the hallmarks as one of these pieces ... but until someone can demonstrate a reliable build with him, he's still relegated to being a fun quirky piece. As we see more Drow develop the Champion of Eilistraee could see a resurgence.
The Warchanter gives you improved countersong and a bonus to all of your saves, but it's general lack of survivability keeps it out of play (at least in 200 points). It probably deserves a spot in the Epic toolkit, but that's not the focus of this article.
I feel the Longstrider needs some mention as well; Speed 12 is a big deal. It doesn't have a home in a successful warband yet ...
CG also has plenty of functional spellcasting pieces that you can work into a band ... Wand Expert, Renegade Warlock, Adventuring Wizard, Evermeet Wizard, etc.. These aren't the strongest pieces in constructed but can be useful in spellcasting-heavy bands. Who knows where Elminster will lead?
PS. I've got a thing for the Bladesinger. I can't help it. She rocks. Squishy, but rocks. 100-point is where she really thrives though, so not in this toolkit. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 5:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The Dark Traveler has all the hallmarks as one of these pieces ... but until someone can demonstrate a reliable build with him, he's still relegated to being a fun quirky piece.
Just you wait. Some day my Dark Traveller + 2x Thri-Kreen Barbarian band will win a game. It may be a while, but it WILL happen.
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The Centaur Hero has nice stats but is costly; perhaps some combination w/ the Nentyar will propel it to more frequent use.
As much as I'd like to think so, I doubt it. Even with the Valenar Commander the Centaur routes too easily. With a commander 2 I think it will be relying too much on a lucky morale save.
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
CG also has plenty of functional spellcasting pieces that you can work into a band ... Wand Expert, Renegade Warlock, Adventuring Wizard, Evermeet Wizard, etc.. These aren't the strongest pieces in constructed but can be useful in spellcasting-heavy bands. Who knows where Elminster will lead?
The Wand Expert works well in some bands, and Elminster may make tier 1 in constructed, but the rest is "bleh". The Adventuring Wizard is the most frustrating creature I've ever played. He seldom gets his blast of flame off well enough to make up for his high point cost even when you GMA him into action. If they took that spell away and reduced his cost I might play him. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 5:32 PM |
| That's my point on those. They can be fun pieces but Jesse and I don't consider them core or extended pieces of the toolkit. My comments are just that ... commentary ... and not an addition to what we consider the most important pieces.
They do show up though and can be fun to add some excitement to things.
If you want to have fun w/ the Centaur Hero sometime run it with a Warchanter (at least, pre-Wizard Tac/Rikka days). Warchanter, Centaur, Goliath/Pegasus, Graycloak x2 isn't a bad little band as long as you keep the Warchanter behind a corner and out of sight. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 5:44 PM |
| Change to 8 Activations might get that Dark Traveler over the hump, but he is not there yet.
Dark Traveler
Warchanter
Goliath Barbarian x4
5 pts of filler
Or
Dark Traveler
Warchanter
Goliath Barbian x3
Half Ogre Barbarian
10 pts of filler for two activations.
or some such
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 6:20 PM |
| Thanks for yet another great toolkit. I can't wait for the next two!
I'm missing a couple pieces from the "core" you set forth, and that reinforces for me why I have traditionally never run CG in our local tournament scene. I've wanted to, but it's hard to build a CG band when you don't have an IM or a Pyromancer! I tried anyway once, and went 0-3[xx(]
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Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/03/2005 6:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
That's my point on those. They can be fun pieces but Jesse and I don't consider them core or extended pieces of the toolkit. My comments are just that ... commentary ... and not an addition to what we consider the most important pieces.
Sorry if it sounded like I was berating you. I recognized that you weren't saying that they were tier 1, I was just agreeing with you and stating why.
That said I don't think the Dark Traveller will make tier 1 except in unusual cases, such as when you are playing two Thri-Kreens.
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Change to 8 Activations might get that Dark Traveler over the hump, but he is not there yet.
Dark Traveler
Warchanter
Goliath Barbarian x4
5 pts of filler
The biggest problem with the DT is that in most bands you will need a second commander, like Aesoph Darkfable's above. That's just too many points invested in stuff that isn't damaging. (DT is a good hitter for a commander, but he's no orc champ.) It's the same problem as buffing AC in LG. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 10:41 AM |
| | You seem to be missing the xeph warrior. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 10:41 AM |
| I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice that. :)
Added. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 2:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
There are so many pieces that are simply on the cusp; close ... but that haven't quite broken into the foreground. They've got the stats but simply haven't been able to work their way into a successful tournament build.
The Dark Traveler has all the hallmarks as one of these pieces ... but until someone can demonstrate a reliable build with him, he's still relegated to being a fun quirky piece. The Moon Elf Fighter similarly so and as we see more Drow develop the Champion of Eilistraee could see a resurgence.
The Centaur Hero has nice stats but is costly; perhaps some combination w/ the Nentyar will propel it to more frequent use.
The Warchanter gives you improved countersong and a bonus to all of your saves, but it's general lack of survivability keeps it out of play. The Voice of Battle is a bit sturdier for providing improved countersong but doesn't have the handy commander effect.
I feel the Longstrider needs some mention as well; Speed 12 is a big deal. It doesn't have a home in a successful warband yet ...
CG also has plenty of functional spellcasting pieces that you can work into a band ... Wand Expert, Renegade Warlock, Adventuring Wizard, Evermeet Wizard, etc.. These aren't the strongest pieces in constructed but can be useful in spellcasting-heavy bands. Who knows where Elminster will lead?
Hmm. Some of these I do think belong on the extended list. The Moon Elf Fighter isn't exactly there right now, probably (unless Underdark has a solid combo) - but he's not *that* far off. He just needs the right combo of creatures, and he could be deadly. Maybe there's no extablished band with him, but I think he belongs in the toolkit. To support my point, back in the GoL days, he was used to make top 8 at the championships (with 3 Evermeets) - whereas the Inspiring Marshal wasn't there yet. He was simply missing the other piece to the puzzle (Frenzied Berserkers, etc).
The Warchanter and Voice of Battle - until the speed 2 rule is removed - belong on the extended list as well. They're both playable - Voice perhaps more so. I've heard about - and also designed myself - pretty good bands with them.
As the Elf Stalker is on the extended list, the Renegade Warlock just might belong as well? Someone successfully qualified for this year's Championships with, what 4 Renegade Warlocks? (And Moon Elf Fighter??) Frankly, the main reason I've never used him is just the same as will likely be for the Elf Stalker - the difference in activations compared with using Graycloaks.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 2:36 PM |
| Dagni, one of the reasons I grabbed the first reply was so I could mention those figures. If you're playing CG they may not be a requirement but they are a fine investment. All of them have good-enough stats to see consistent play ... but if you're missing them it won't hurt your chances in today's environment.
The plan is to keep these lists updated as time progresses.
On the speed two issue ... I'd love to see the final ruling on that. What if it just replaces the rushing instance and how fast you can move if you CAN'T reach the closest target. I'm not going to react until I see the ruling. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 2:37 PM |
| As part of the Drizzt toolkit, even though it's not good to use all uniques, the following deserve consideration as they fit.
Ialdabode - Good in the 5pt slot even without Drizzt
Rikka - Already mentioned above, her potential changes with Drizzt. Possibility of using Drizzt's scout and waylay after allowing your opponent to set up first is intriguing. Also low enough cost that Drizzt + Guen + Rikka (yeah, I know Drizzt might not scout) can afford more activations. Drizzt brings Rikka's saves and morale saves up to respectable levels.
Krusk or Ember - Become reasonable mid-range hitters for their cost when included in a Drizzt band that has enough OTHER threats (such as Guen and Rikka).
Great article as usual.
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 3:20 PM |
| | I also think the Moon Elf Fighter is a "must have". Not only is she durable, fast and high attack bonus and commander rating, but with the addition of more and more "tanks" or "Titans" to the game, the need to throw everything at them and beat them down before they activate is even bigger. If I'm facing dual Maruts especially, I'm wanting to blast one of them all at once and try to gut 148 points to one 30 damage attack if possible. A single Berserker can take that easily enough as can the Moon Elf, actually. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 3:30 PM |
| Fair enough. I am just not convinced the Moon Elf Fighter is quite worth her cost at this point in time. If someone can prove she is still cost efficient I am more than willing to add her back on the list.
By the same token though, I admit that Chaotic Good is the fact that I am least intimate with (the most is Lawful Good) and the one I have spent the least time on conceptualizing optimial builds and strategies.
For the record, I don't think dual Maruts is a competitive build. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 3:42 PM |
| | True on dual Maruts, but there's a whole lot of tanks out there these days that I'd surelike the chance tomake sure don't get an attack off, if possible. Even if I'm runnning dual berserkers against three Justice Archons, I want to take off 65 HP and take one out before they attadck, if I can. Without a crit, the twin berserkers just do the 60. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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kaiserluger
Warrior
319 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 4:18 PM |
| | the good news for new players is that CG is great faction to get in on relatively cheaply. Elf pyromancer is really the only peice that may be expensive. Most of the other peices are aberations or sooner and inspiring marshall isnt expensive. | |
Kaiserluger - | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 4:45 PM |
| | Once all four factions are complete and the articles are tidied up, these'd be great to have somewhere that is more easily accessable, like in articles or on your own website of tips and tricks for DDM. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 4:52 PM |
| I Just want to say a big Thank you to you guys! These are really great for new players who came to the game later! I really appreciate these. Thanks for doing all of the work!
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 7:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Dagni, one of the reasons I grabbed the first reply was so I could mention those figures. If you're playing CG they may not be a requirement but they are a fine investment. All of them have good-enough stats to see consistent play ... but if you're missing them it won't hurt your chances in today's environment.
Oh, I understand that. In the case of the Voice of Battle (and perhaps the Warchanter), I simply think that she deserves more than an honorable mention. In the current play environment, she's exceptionally good, and fits right in with a few bands. Obviously not a core piece, however, so belongs on the extended list. If you're missing her, I think you're missing about as much as if you're missing any mini on the extended list.
The Moon Elf Fighter is a special case. Pre-Underdark (it's too early to say much for sure as far as metagame post-Underdark), he's not really quite worth using. In fact, he's a big red herring if you're trying to make a really great band. However, his ability is so powerful, and his efficiency is so close to playable, that I feel he could come into his own someday. One could say that about many, many minis - but most minis, even if they make that last little step, would only ascend to the "Extended List", if you will. If the Moon Elf is ever really worth playing in a great band, he has the potential to become part of the "core component" - like the Inspiring Marshal did. As such, doesn't he already belong on the Extended List? Wouldn't the Inspiring Marshal have belonged on the extended list *before* he was any good?
Then too, I have one idea for a Moon Elf Fighter band with the new set. It's experimental, but then so is any band with say, a Wizard Tactician, Elf Stalker, or Nentyar Hunter, and they are on the extended list.
In contrast, the Evermeet Wizard used to belong in the competitive toolkit, but no longer. Nor is the Centaur Hero or Dark Traveler good enough, in my opinion, to be on the list. If they're anything, they're just honorable mentions.
Moon Elf Fighter. Voice of Battle. I say add them.
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Reply to Gunther: I very rarely like to change to a band that was weaker in the old metagame just because it might work better in the new metagame. If the Moon Elf wasn't good enough before, it's not likely to become so just because there's a slightly better chance you'll face a titan figure. The band still needs to be able to do well against the whole field - which almost always includes plenty of bands that didn't change from the last metagame. If the Moon Elf is to become good enough, he needs different hitters than, say, Frenzied Berserkers. Why? Because 2 Frenzied Berserkers and a Moon Elf is almost the whole band! So the benefit of tactics is almost nonexistant, as both FBs can go in a single phase even *without* tactics.
If by some miracle CG gets a ~20 point unit that's so good he's worth using over the normal 30-50 point heavy hitters in each faction, that's when the Moon Elf would be the best.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/04/2005 8:15 PM |
| This list is meant to be maintained by the community; we'll get things added.
The issue w/ the Moon Elf (and others like it) largely comes down to them meeting the basic stat-points (good speed, good AC, right HP, good cmndr effect or abilities, etc.) but are priced in such a way that there are not other "good" components that can fit into a band with them.
Kinda like the Marshal. Propelling around pre-Aberrations CG figures (followers mind) didn't do alot of good. Pre-Aberrations the best melee figures in CG were commanders - Drizzt, Champ-o-E, Moon Elf ... not the right bits to use w/ the Marshal.
There are number of figures that meet these stat-points but simply don't fit into a good band right now ... and some that fall obviously short and shouldn't be considered.
My hope is that a new player reading these threads reads the entire thread ... there's as much to gain from reading the discussions as there is just looking at the list and comments. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 11/11/2005 8:52 PM |
| Chris: Just wanted to say thanks for the plug [)]
I've started the rather painful process of a FULL reorganization of my figures... the tookit is a great place to start.
As 95% of what I play is 200 pt, I can't help, BUT, I hope that someone will do up similar lists for 100 and 500 pt play.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 11/28/2005 11:40 PM |
| I dont think you give enough credit to the Cleric of Corellon Larethian. Now I do not disagree that in most warbands the IM has a large advantage over him/her (i can never tell). However, with the right warband make up I believe that the Cleric can be very effective. Those Hold Persons are great against low save hitters like the Orcs and Goliaths. Bless and Magic Weapon can really help low attack bonus figures, and the commander effect helps those elven figures that tend to sit in the back lines like the HEBI, Greycloaks, Elf Stalkers, Pyromancers, and Aramil. The boost to saves may make a player think twice before risking a piece to do an area effect attack that would leave it open to possible retaliation. I do not think it is an easy piece to use effectively, but I do believe it is very possible.
EDIT: Typo | |
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Champion of Spellswords
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 2:55 AM |
| I don't know if it already has been mentioned but I think the Satyr deserves some mention.
Sure at 15 pts it's expensive BUT it's pipe ability( + 4 to initiative)combined with the Inspiring Marshall's grant move makes it lethal. That maximizes the IM/FBx2 warband damage output. You 'Grant move" hit for thirty. Win 'ini' with "pipes" and hit twice more with the same FB - devastating.
That and it has Countersong, DR5 and Spd 8 and mobility and it could funtion as a 'poor man' Elf warrior with it's +3 to range (Don't forget to add +1 thanks to the IM Cmd effect). Kinda sucks that it has only 20hp thoughs. | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 10:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
You know, for some odd reason I thought we had it either in the kit or as part of my post discussing "close" figures.
I must be going blind in my old age, I can't seem to find your post regarding "Close" figures. Send me a link please? | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 1:06 PM |
| How did I miss that...GREAT...now I'm dumb and stupid. I miss just being stupid. Seeya on Vassal Chris!!!
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Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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