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| | Author | Messages | |
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 9:41 AM |
| I like the first one. You don't have to magic weapon the critters unless you're facing someone w/ DR and fire resistance. If not, save the spells for magic missiles and/or that blast of flame. The Helmed Horrors will not run, can't be crit'ed, fly and in general are pretty nice. They allow you to run OTHER things beyond more chraals and a beefy commander. I ran dual-Chraals + Gauth myself with a Blackguard and it was tricky at times keeping the Blackguard protected ... requires commander makes him a target and if you're protecting him the Gauth is going to get punked by a melee guy quickly.
If you're using tiles I'd swap out the other skirmisher for a Mongrelfolk just to have the option.
I like the Helmed Horror alot. The potential to run them with a weak commander and not worry is nice. The other thing that begs to be run w/ the Helmed Horrors are:
- Vargouille - as they are immune to paralysis
- Mind Flayers - as they are immune to stuns
- Dark Naga - as they are immune to lightning bolts
Take a look around LE and see how many things are immune to electricity and paralysis ... fun times ahead ... | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 10:22 AM |
| | Helmed Horrors are goodness. Soneone suggested a band a few days ago that I really like- Dark Naga, 2 Helmed Horrors, MFT Filler. Lits of inter-synergies. Yup, 95 fearless non-commander linked HP for how many points it costs.. all good! | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 10:38 AM |
| | Don't the helmed horrors require commander as well? | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 10:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Richard II
Don't the helmed horrors require commander as well?
Nope! [:D] | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 10:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Nope. No requires commander at all. Just construct w/ 95 HP, flight, 22 AC, blindsight and two attacks. I'm kinda bummed they don't do magic damage automatically but I suppose that is what makes them "good" as opposed to "broken"
wow. those things are even better then I thought. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 11:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Yeah that's 4 hits from anyone to kill, no chance to rout.
If activations weren't as important I'd try ...
Helmed Horror x4
Kobold Sorcerer (for the magic weapon just in case)
Just for the heck of it. They lack in damage output though; anyone w/ DR and/or fire resistance is really going to nerf them. Both (JA + Couatl, say) and they are really hurting.
I'd like to pair them with a rakshasa or dark naga I think. Rakshasa can impart various beneficial commander effects (couatl springs to mind) while the dark naga can LB through them. Both choices offer extra attacks via bigby's slapping hand. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 11:40 AM |
| The one TheCloakedRanger and I have been working with/playing around is
Dark Naga
Helmed Horror
Duergar Champ x2
Gauth
warrior skeleton x3
Its been very effective in the tests so far as the Duergar helps cover for the weakness of the HH if they run into the DR/Fire resistance band.
If I ran against a couatl id try and put the horror on the couatl using its flight. but that is a game I need to run with it for sure to test. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 11:49 AM |
| They really are a fantastic meat shield with some good mobility and decent damage vs some foes.
If you're running a moderate commander, such as Urthok, that you might not want to field with Chraals, you can mix Duergar Champs in with the Helmed Horrors for a variety of immunities and types of damage.
One thing that a lot of top players do is to multiply a unit into a warband... 2x Frenzied Berserkers, 3x Chraals, 4x Justice Archons, 2x Couatls, etc.
I think that LE is now at the point where CE is that it has some interchangable hitters in a reasonably similar price range. CE bands that mix Ravager, Samurai, Champ, Eye and possibly the ZWD or Grimlock depending on the meta are more able to deal with a variety of foes.
If you're not running a beefy, slow, costly commander, you can't risk running Chraals... otherwise, it makes sense to put all your eggs in one basket and run lots of Chraals.
Assuming you run the Dark Naga, Urthok, Rakshasa, or try a borderline commander like Mina or the Trog Captain, you really can't risk Chraals vs a solid opponent. At least, I wouldn't.
So what about mixing combinations of the following LE units, rather than doubling up?
1 - Helmed Horror (mobile, tough, immunties, low dmg, no morale save)
2 - Duergar Champ (good saves, conceal, cleave, accurate, magic dmg)
3 - Gauth (solid ranged threat, great targeting, needs protection)
4 - Efreeti (average ranged threat, accurate melee, not as sturdy)
You could even run those four units with Snig and a Kobold Sorcerer for 199 points and 9 activations (once things move to the 8+Maps environment). | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 11:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
The one TheCloakedRanger and I have been working with/playing around is
Dark Naga
Helmed Horror
Duergar Champ x2
Gauth
warrior skeleton x3
Its been very effective in the tests so far as the Duergar helps cover for the weakness of the HH if they run into the DR/Fire resistance band.
If I ran against a couatl id try and put the horror on the couatl using its flight. but that is a game I need to run with it for sure to test.
Aesoph,
You've given me the perfect segue to give credit to your band. I used at a sanctioned tournament this last Saturday to go 3-0 (not including a first round bye) and take first. No match was particularly close.
The band is tight and elegant, with each piece contributing ina nice, synchronized manner.
The Helmed Horror does his job of soaking up ranged damage and just generally being hard to kill. In some matches, the opponent does not even try, judging that it will take too many attack resources for too few points gained. Once in melee, he puts out very reliable (if not overwhelming) damage. He never missed once, and I was glad of Blindsight when I fought a blurred Dire Bear.
The Duergers did what you would expect from their stats, providing consistent damage and being hard to kill because of making most of their saves. With the autodamage from the Gauth and the Duergar's high attack bonus, I usually got off two or three Cleaves a game.
The Gauth was a true star of the show. With a Naga-provided DC 16 on paralyze and stun (not to mention the fire), he really disrupted the opponent's plans. In the three matches, I managed to paralyze two important enemy figs, leading to the instant destruction of one.
The Dark Naga was another top performer. With careful placement, I was able to get off both lightning bolts in all three matches. Moreover, I was able to use the Helmed Horror as an anchor such that I always got multiple enemies in the bolt and never got any of my troops besides the Horror. The Bigby's Slapping Hand was for use when I ran out of bolts. Out of three times, I think the opponent failed only ones, but that lead to 45 damage!
I used a Kobold Miner instead of one of the skeletons. On maps, at least, that was a mistake. I actually got "lucky" and had him wander to a scoring tile in all three matches, but in two of them he was routed on turn one and never scored.
Hats off to you for a nice build. It was very solid, and should be competitive against most any band. Against the massive damage output builds, you'll just need a stun or paralyze (or two) to hit to even up the damage output.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 12:16 PM |
| I like YRM_DM's thoughts on this one. I've recently contemplated a LE Quad band utilizing one of each of the HH, Chraal, Efreeti and Duergar Champ. Leaves you low on points for a truly solid commander is my only thought. Still might be effective. Something to try out.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 12:26 PM |
| | Awesome to hear Pat. I haven't had the time to get down to serious testing so that is good news indeed! | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 1:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I like YRM_DM's thoughts on this one. I've recently contemplated a LE Quad band utilizing one of each of the HH, Chraal, Efreeti and Duergar Champ. Leaves you low on points for a truly solid commander is my only thought. Still might be effective. Something to try out.
R~
Thanks. Yeah, that's why I stayed away from the Chraal.
There are some really great things about having a Gauth in the band, and if the opponent runs an LRD, the Efreeti, Duergar and HH can engage and hit the dragon pretty easily. They can even hit an LSD while the Gauth plugs away for 20.
I like the diverse immunities so if an opponent goes very heavy with one element or spell or type of ranged attack, you should have the perfect screener to lead the way.
Diverse damage types are great too. As has been stated you can direct the best suited unit against it's best matchup, especially if the ranged attacks have purchased you activation control. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 2:08 PM |
| | So does this mean we now have 2 potential new post-Underdark Tier 1 bands? | |
I am not gone. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 2:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So does this mean we now have 2 potential new post-Underdark Tier 1 bands?
Is the other contender the Marut band you have touted? That one sounds strong and I am sure to try it soon, after I have defended the honor of the Grey Render (or not).
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 2:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So does this mean we now have 2 potential new post-Underdark Tier 1 bands?
I think really LE has "options" now. You can go pure-beater, you can go Gauth or multi-Gauth and beater mix. You can go Chraal and strong commander. An LE "quad" would run HBG, Dark Naga or Rakshasa and have a mix of Chraal, Duergar, Efreeti, Helmed Horror, Gauth. With a single Chraal commander assasination isn't as much of an issue.
The Dark Naga and Rakshasa are VERY similar w/ the Dark Naga providing more pure offense (lbolt), Rakshasa providing more tech (slide, paralysis, random commander effect). I can see reasons why I'd use one over the other ... but it's such a toss up. Slide+Gauth is VERY useful ... but I'm not sure if it is more useful than +2 to the DC. Paralysis versus lightning bolts, 60 HP versus SR / DR and 55. Both speed 8.
Good times for LE. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 2:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So does this mean we now have 2 potential new post-Underdark Tier 1 bands?
It's going to still take some playtesting but those are some seriously solid pieces and come 8 figure they look good. Time will tell though. There's so man ideas floating around out there right now. Couatl/Rikka/Aspect of Kord could be hard on this type of band and is definately a possibility for tier 1. Still that requires more playtesting as well.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:01 PM |
| Indeed. That is next on my list of things to test after I finish playing around with the Marut. (Note: This may take awhile as I am really enjoying playing the bad boy.)
I don't think having one or two slightly unfavorable match-ups prevents a band from being uncompetitive. Having one or two very unfavorable match-ups would, but this doesn't look like a very unfavorable match-up.
Jesse | |
I am not gone. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:08 PM |
| I don't think there is any definitive Tier-1 LE Build at the moment- more like a mixup of the following..
Commmanders (x1)
Urthok
Rakshasa
Orog
Dark Naga
Snig (optional in addition)
Grunts
0-4 Duergar Warriors
0-3 Chraals
0-2 Efreetis
0-2 Helmed Horrors
0 Skullcrushers ([)])
'Tech'
0-1 MindFlayer Telepath
0-1 Gauth
0-1 Medium Green Dragon
Filler
Skeleton Warriors
Goblin Skirmishers
whatever you feel like
Or something like that at least. Kinda obvious I guess! I'm leaning towards Naga, 3x Duergar Warriors and an Efreeti, mainly because I like the figures.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:10 PM |
| | Don't forget the potential uses of slide + pits/lava as well. One square may not seem like much, but with that bridge chokepoint on the outpost map the rakshasa can cause some problems. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 7:20 PM |
| Having a bit of a sneak peek at the possible upcoming LE toolkit, there were only two units that I pick from that didn't make the toolkit...
It's as if LE kept getting good pieces to a puzzle, but they all didn't fit... and they kept getting pieces... and all of a sudden, there isn't just one distinct top tier build, but two branches with lots of Sub-Branches.
Soth - 2x Chraal
Orog - 2-3x Chraal
BlackGuard - 3x Chraal
Naga +3 (Gauth, Helmed Horror, Duergar Champ, Efreeti combos...)
Rakshasa +3 (Gauth, Helmed Horror, Duergar Champ, Efreeti combos...)
Urthok +3 ((Gauth, Helmed Horror, Duergar Champ, Efreeti combos...)
Snig & Kobold Sorc +4 (Gauth, Helmed Horror, Duergar Champ, Efreeti combos...)
With the Naga, you obviously favor Gauth heavy...
With the Rakshasa, you'd probably favor Duergar & Efreeti...
I also tested a band:
Naga - Beholder - Gauth - Snig & Sniglets - Skeletons that worked pretty well with Tiles (Set up to allow the Naga to move out of sight of the Beholder at turn 3 but still have it in the command radius).
Soth - Beholder is still at least a spoiler band, as is dual Beholders.
So LE has a lot of competitive options.
You're not LIKELY to run Soth - Beholder at a National event, but, you wouldn't be crazy to try it either.
Lots of options and solid units at every price range.
(guys, consider the Nothic and Direguard as optionals in the LE toolkit) | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 10:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Direguard and Nothic will get a metion, as will the Ghostly Consort. Mention though ... not heavily endorsed.
There will likely be a special "Red Wizard" section as well ... there are crazy folks out there who want to try the Red Wizard and that necessitates a whole different set of critters (we all have our issues).
To be honest, I almost always use a gravehound rather than a Nothic, even with the Nothic's 4-1 HP ratio, if I have to fill that spot. I'd rather have the unlimited stun and fewer fearless HP.
The Direguard is a figure that makes the cut if there isn't room for a Green Dragon, or I'm expecting to need to screen against a Beholder or something. There's nothing wrong with the Direguard at all for it's cost, it may be one of the best units in the 20-25 price range in the game, but I know that it's not a price range that sees a lot of use.
WoTC is trying, but the 20 price range is a slot where you pay enough for a unit to hurt when you lose it, but you don't pay enough for the all around toughness you get with units in the 30s.
Now, with enough big hitters, it's possible for a mid cost unit to come in with a 2nd wave of sorts, at a point when it can be a target, but, your opponent would have to switch off a bigger target that he's already started to beat on.
The Half-Orc Executioner was brilliant in Sealed as a follow-up hitter for me. I don't know if the DireGuard or Half Orc Executioner can fill these roles in Constructed well enough to shift focus from more efficient 30ish pointers.
But, for players who don't have the full first choices toolkit, the Nothic and DireGuard can step in at a fairly high efficiency. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 1:06 AM |
| | Thanks for the post of the band Aesoph. I plan on taking it to a local constructed toury here in CA in a week. I will tell you guys how it does. There are some good players there..IanB, Feathers, Dagni, jsugden, and a few others I cant remember their names ATM. But it should be a good test for the band. | |
Welcome to Eternal Crack...
"Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!"
Champion of the Frost Salamander | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2019 Posts
Portland OR
| | 11/08/2005 3:06 AM |
| | as i already posted here somewhere i would be slightly worried about multi duergar because of the non guaranteed conceal 6 roll...i really don't know what else to run though...at 33 it is odd...drop an activation for chrall...lose more for anything else...Any real thoughts of an urthok commander??? was completly survivable until recent resurgance of blackguard and introduction of orog...all that being said i am very happy about LE "options" now... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 11/08/2005 6:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
Please rate this band, before I splash out on two helmed horrors;
Helmed horrors look very cost-effective to me, certainly Tier-2. And possibly Tier-1 if you can find the right combo...
I think buying 2 or 3 helmed horrors is unlikly to be a waste of money. Though a warband of 4 helmed horrors+Snig may be a little extreem.
Possible combo's;
Dark Naga + Chokers
Vargouille
Mindflayer/Mindflayer Telepath.
Troglodyte Captain.
i.e. any area/cone/line effects that helmed horrors are immune to.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 11/08/2005 11:52 AM |
| Having read everyones opinions, i reckon one of the following two bands would be best:
HH x 2 90
Dark Naga 44
Gauth 39 (yay combo)
Snig and the sniglets 20
Mongrelfolk 3
Kobold miner 3
199 10 activations
Pro's are lots activations and two commanders
Cons no magic weapon so coautls own it, only one grabber
or
HH x 2 90
Naga 44
Gauth 39
Dark moon monk 15
mongrelfolk 3
Wolf skeleton 9
7 activations, 200 pts
Pros magic weapon, multiple grabbers
Cons low activations, one commander
Which is better? | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
Champion of the Dragon Disciple | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 11:57 AM |
| | I like the 2nd, but would swap out the Mongrelfolk for a Kobold Miner. Just realised it's you One_Wing. Hello. | |
My Trading Thread | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 11:59 AM |
| quote:
HH x 2 90
Naga 44
Gauth 39
Dark moon monk 15
mongrelfolk 3
Wolf skeleton 9
7 activations, 200 pts
Take that band, switch one Helmed Horror for a Duergar Champ, use the remaining points to add or upgrade the other pieces.
I'm not sure what benefits two Helmed Horrors provide over one and a Duergar. Also, at this point, you "could" go without MW, but the DMM does make a nice assault point grabber so... | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 11/08/2005 12:16 PM |
| Hello Orcmonk
Just realised that actually naga costs 41, so add a goblin skirmisher to each band. I am not yet sold on the duergar champ, because my morale save dice hate me with a fiery passion, so where possible i like to avoid using them (my balor ran twice at the prerelease, and one of the times he went straight off). Also, he has lower AC and doesn't shrug off lightning. OOTH, his inclusion would allow me to change the second band to the following:
HH 45
DC 33
Naga 41
Gauth 39
Snig + sniglets 20
Dark moon monk 15
Mongrelfolk 3
Goblin skirmisher 3
11 activations 199 pts
which takes away both the cons i mentionned, though actually I would rather run:
HH x 2 90
Naga 41
Gauth 39
Kobold Sorceror 20
Mongrelfolk 3
Goblin skirmisher x 2 6
199 pts, 8 activations
This would seem to me to be the ideal best of both band. Thoughts? | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
Champion of the Dragon Disciple | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 12:48 PM |
| quote:
...I would rather run:
HH x 2 90
Naga 41
Gauth 39
Kobold Sorceror 20
Mongrelfolk 3
Goblin skirmisher x 2 6
199 pts, 8 activations
This would seem to me to be the ideal best of both band. Thoughts?
You have enhanced the survivability of your main melee threats, at the loss of significant damage output. With only two melee threats, your Bigby's Slapping hands are less potent, and you may find it harder to block access by the opponent to your commanders and Gauth. Many opponents will probably ignore the HH entirely in favor of the 90 soft points from the Naga, Gauth, and Kobold Sorc. if you can protect the soft pieces, you will do well because the HH are really tough to bring down. Otherwise...
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 11/08/2005 4:05 PM |
| | FYI all of these bands are designed with me choosing Drow outpost as a map, since the two horrors can block off the bridge, and everything else can either hang back far enough to avoid (suspiciously large and silver) flying vengence, while still flaming/zapping/paralyzing enemy forces, or against no flyers get in close to maximse use of abilities. | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
Champion of the Dragon Disciple | |
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