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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
    
Walnut Creek, CA
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/07/2005 2:53 PM |
| A's advantage is in defending the assault point locations that his opponent wants to enter. The side assault area for B is very exposed, and is still in range for A to get to and gang tackle. The interior assault area for B is very close to A's starting area and makes it easy pickings. If side A goes first, and has creatures with speedy creatures, it can defend both of its scoring area pretty well. Any B side tile grabbers should get beaten to a bloody pulp.
Additionally, B has a quicker escape route off the board, throught he middle of the map. If A can force the battle to the center fo the board, B is at a significant disadvantage in that his figures may route off the board on the first failed morale check.
You need to play the map a few times to appreciate the subtlties of the map. The right warbands can really capitalize on the advantages of the map - however, both sides do have advantages in the right hands. | |
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lurch_E_bean
Underboss
1058 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Additionally, B has a quicker escape route off the board, throught he middle of the map. If A can force the battle to the center fo the board, B is at a significant disadvantage in that his figures may route off the board on the first failed morale check.
This and the fact that side A is COMPLETELY safe from a first turn fireball/AoE attack makes me surprised that someone would think side A is at a disadvantage... | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:22 PM |
| I think side A has an advantage of choosing where he wants the main battle to take place. Since B can't get to him until the 3rd turn if the side A player wanted that. Assuming each warband only has one commander an entire game might be played in the top or bottom half of the map. A great deal of speed and manueverability pieces could rock. I'm thinking MDPs could move attack at will and always retreat. Some large nonflying creatures unless they are lightning fast and want to run around the board might not even see battle if a corridor gets plugged up. It's like two armies fighting in a hallway. There's going to be a lot of creatures blocked off from the battle. This benefits some warbands and takes away from others.
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 3:22 PM |
| See, I see that B can more easily control the battle, and if B can force the action around the corner somehow, B has the advantage. I do agree about the routing off on a shorter path. I also agree that the scoring locations are quite different for both. Like I said, I've only glanced at the map so far, but on first look, I'd rather be B. Course, tactical play is my strong suit, not tile placement, map reading.
Isn't side B also safe from first turn fireball AoE spells? It is a long way around those walls. | |
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lurch_E_bean
Underboss
1058 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 4:31 PM |
| Granted it's not easy, but not impossible. I think it's just a case of the GMA/Fireball combo doing its thing and hoping that'll weaken you badly enough. Also, an Archmage can fly through a shortcut and easily pick something off with an EMAA if he wants.
Of course even a GMA/Fireball combo can't work from side B to side A. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 4:50 PM |
| | Looking at this map, I see Terrain initiative being critical.. if you lose, you have alot of pain to make up the disadvantages. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 4:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ZaukrieIsn't side B also safe from first turn fireball AoE spells? It is a long way around those walls.
From a GMA fireball from a Pyro, not really. Depends on where they set up their figs and where the Pyro starts. It can be done pretty easily though. Side A is absolutely immune to it though.
R~ | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 5:46 PM |
| | I the game that I played on it an aggressive player B with two large based beaters ended up bottled up where the hallway opens into the large area. I was able to meet him there and to bring a beater around through the side to join in. B's VP areas are very exposed to A since A has to walk through them both to get any where. There is no out of the way VP area for B to hide in to make A split up. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 5:51 PM |
| So, like, I'm stupid?[:D]
Everyone but me thinks A has the advantage? Or, do you think the map is balanced and I really only do well because I can figure out what to do once we are engaged in combat? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 6:01 PM |
| I think there are clear advantages and disadvantages to both; the question is does easier VP access balance out with easier routing? It is really, really easy for Side B to rout right off the board, they really have to aggressively push all the way into the A end of the keep to protect their figures from that.
I think a really fast band probably likes side A a little better, since it can get around those corners quickly, and has some rout protection. A slower LG type band probably prefers side B. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/07/2005 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Looking at this map, I see Terrain initiative being critical.. if you lose, you have alot of pain to make up the disadvantages.
Very much agreed ... terrain initiative will likely determine where the main combat takes place ... | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/07/2005 6:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
So, like, I'm stupid?[:D]
Nobody thinks you're like stupid ... [)] | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 6:11 PM |
| LoL, thanks, long day at work, so I keep coming back for more.
I have no idea why a 41 year old man would type "like" but it helped.
Speaking of terrain initiative, is it going to be so important that commander ratings will be more important in the age of maps, and eliminiating the OoC penalties in War Drums doesn't spell the end of commanders? | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 11/07/2005 6:31 PM |
| I don't think that it is an accident that many maps have clear advantages and disadvantages to both start areas. The designers clearly know that certain sides are vulnerable to first turn fireballs or GMA fireballs, and also vulnerable or protected from easy routing.
It seems like a good way to balance out the loss of OOC movement. So commanders will still be very important. If you see your opponent pull out an AM+Pyro warband, you'll wish you had a high commander rating so you can pick the protected side. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/07/2005 7:19 PM |
| | Anybody that has run commander 0 in a sealed environment knows how precious a commander is. The end of the 'Move 2' era will spell the end of days where difficult creatures are close to useless, but it will not spell the end of commanders. They're even more important, now ... | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 9:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Anybody that has run commander 0 in a sealed environment knows how precious a commander is. The end of the 'Move 2' era will spell the end of days where difficult creatures are close to useless, but it will not spell the end of commanders. They're even more important, now ...
Agreed. The fact that people are considering paying 15 points for a Satyr (to use Pipes) is another indication of how important Initiative (and thus Commander Rating) will continue to be. How many times have each of us lamented a loss that could have been turned around "if only I had won that turn X init roll". Taking no commander will generally be a bad move even when the map is mostly balanced, like Fane of Lolth.
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 1:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I think there are clear advantages and disadvantages to both; the question is does easier VP access balance out with easier routing? It is really, really easy for Side B to rout right off the board, they really have to aggressively push all the way into the A end of the keep to protect their figures from that.
I think a really fast band probably likes side A a little better, since it can get around those corners quickly, and has some rout protection. A slower LG type band probably prefers side B.
I played on Magma Keep twice last night at our League night and this is precisely why I chose side A both times. I was playing a monk band with average speed of 10. I was able to take the fight both times into the middle of the map and move there with ease. And when my Young Master did rout, it had to run around the walls and thus was prevented from running off the board. If I was coming from side B, my Young Master would have definitely routed in that very turn.
I think side A is absolutely the side you want when playing such fast bands. Just posting my experience to back up IanB's assessment. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 2:24 PM |
| Obviously there are unusual situations, like when facing a Pyromancer, but I say that Side B is clearly better.
B can defend his assualt areas as easily (actually, much, much easier) as A can. The only potential advantage mentioned for Side A that might make some sense is the routing one, and even if it exists, I wouldn't think it's worth the disadvantages. However, I suspect it's a phantom advantage, though that'll be hard to prove/disprove.
Here's the rationale for my hypothesis: on either side, if you full move 20 squares, you're about as far from routing off. On either side, after doing so, you're about as far from the enemy's assembly area, and thus his warband. In other words, the tactical "middle" of the board is well on side A's half of the board, thus negating any disadvantage of routing quickly. And the fact that B's victory areas are much closer to this tactical middle has to be considered an advantage, not a disadvantage.
The point is that on side B you can move way past the middle with a fast band on the first round, because the opponent is still nowhere near reaching you, as he has to go around the walls. Feathers, I suspect that had you moved as aggressively from side B, rather than side A, you would have been just as far from routing off, and would've had as good or better position in other ways (e.g assault points).
I don't expect to ever choose side A on that map, but we'll see.
- Dagni | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 3:25 PM |
| The question does have to be asked, outside of the Limited Championships, is anyone ever going to pick this map as their map of choice to go with their warband?
I think this is unlikely, as the first batch of maps (plus outpost) seem more useful to me at least. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 3:30 PM |
| I could see using it for certain warbands I have in mind.
With that said, I think the maps I would be most likely to use in any given situation are the Drow Outpost, Mithral Mines, Mushroom Cave, and Hellspike. Each of them provide distinct advantages for certain warband types, plus they seem to be just generally fun to play with.
With that being said, the only maps I can't really see myself using are Queen Peregreine's Tomb (except in epic) and the Fane of the Lolth (I am burnt out on it after Gen Con. It is no longer interesting to me.) | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/08/2005 3:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
The question does have to be asked, outside of the Limited Championships, is anyone ever going to pick this map as their map of choice to go with their warband?
I think this is unlikely, as the first batch of maps (plus outpost) seem more useful to me at least.
It's all relative.
You have to pick a map that:
a) Favors your warband at both ends, or
b) Disproportionately hurts most other warbands more than your warband at both ends.
As such, a moderately bad map for your warband might be outstanding if it is ridiculously bad for everyone else.
Here are some reasons why I might choose this map:
#1: If I have a band vulnerable to first round fireballs. One side is completely sheltered from GMA + Fireball. The other is pretty darn close - and you can place a good number of units in complete shelter.
#2: This is a strong map for beholders, just like Drow Outpost. A Beholder will have lots of options for basing itself where it will be close enough to TK something into the red hot magma. People will say there is limited line of sight, but they're ignoring those long corridors. There is less room to hide than you think on these maps ... Similarly, a Rakshasa can get a lot of benefit out of Slide on this map, as can a creature with a pushback attack.
#3: There are a lot of close quarters on this map. That allows a lot of choking options against grounded foes. A fast warband can do a lot to deny their opponent tile points by securing tiles on this map ... Think about activating 2 Chraals on either side and dedicating them to securing victory areas ... They have a little trouble starting on side A, but if their opponent doesn't plan on devoting a big tile grabber, they may have to trade their tile grabber for 1 rd of tile points ... | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 5:36 PM |
| Good points, Dagni. In all honesty, I didn't really do a comprehensive analysis and I did move rather aggressively, but with a sense of trying to pick my spots to fight in. I suspect that if I was starting on side B, I would have had to count my squares better to ensure I wouldn't rout off in one turn. Whereas from side A, I didn't feel quite as pressured to move deep into the map.
I very well might have moved very far up into side A's area if I had chosen to start at B. I do know that I was not at a disadvantage tile points wise because I had a speed 10 Ember and she can reach the victory area A at the bottom of the map in a double move.
But as to IanB's point. The only reason why I chose to play on this map twice was because it was the Sealed Championship map. Otherwise, I probably would have wanted to pick something else. Magma Keep just doesn't seem as interesting to me as Drow Outpost, Mushroom Caverns, and Hellspike. (Although we really need some clarifications on smoke)
However, Jgsugden does raise some interesting points though. Side A is as well-protected from first-turn bombs as on any other map, if not better. I think with more playtesting, we might find more nuggets about this map. We'll have to see. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 6:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
You have to pick a map that:
a) Favors your warband at both ends, or
b) Disproportionately hurts most other warbands more than your warband at both ends.
No you don't. A potential reason to pick this map is when you've got a high init commander, such as Ryld or Dol Arrah, and use that to force your opponent to play side A (more often than not).
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/08/2005 9:02 PM |
| I guess I just needed on person to agree with me to give me confidence, but I'm sticking with liking side B more. As Dagni said, move 20 away, you're 20 away no matter where you start, and if starting in B, I think I could dictate the fight location easier than from A. I'll look at it more again, but I think I'd like A better.
As for the map in general, it seems the least interesting of the maps, I agree with that. | |
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