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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
    
 | | 11/09/2005 12:00 PM |
| | recovered topic 11211 | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 12:00 PM |
| | I too quite like him, mostly because of the Deadly Rend. That alone makes him a high-threat piece. I actually think his normal version is better than the Epic one, just because the Rend's DC 17 is less effective against other Epic creatures. They should have increased the DC of the Rend to 19 or 20 for Epic, I think. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 12:07 PM |
| But then the Nightwalker's player would have to roll that much higher to not be destroyed. The Save=10 discussion on WoTC made me say it. [:D]
R~ | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 12:10 PM |
| For a supposedly CE-heavy set, he's definitely one of the few bright spots. I had him in the pre-release, and even though the Deadly Rend never came into play, he was still very effective besides.
I'm looking forward to using him in constructed. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/09/2005 12:18 PM |
| The deadly rend rarely seems to fire off, but it does make your opponent play a little more conservatively with low save creatures. That alone is nice. However, it's everything else that the Death Slaad brings that really seals the deal. It should also be noted that we're currently playing 8-fig around here, so that does help his utility some.
Also, I'm not too keen on many of the epic versions of anything. However, the Death slaad's isn't too bad, considering the Regen, conceal, AC, and spells. Power word kill is nasty on its own. At least you can see where the extra Epic points go with him (unlike some other epics) | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 1:24 PM |
| One Slaad band that seems to hold promise (in my opinion) is:
Death Slaad x3 159
Tieflign Captain 21
Cursed Spirit 11
Orc Warrior x 3 9
200 points, 8 activations.
On the downside, there is not a lot of subtlety to this band, but there are no glaring weaknesses either. The Save of 10 makes these guys just barely survivable enough for their cost. They should perform steadily across a wide range of opponents. Against high AC Lawful bands, where the Rends may not happen frequently due to the difficulty of hitting twice, the three Chaos hammers should soften up the enmy very well. Against most Chaotic bands the Hammers are useless, but the enemy should be making rend saves (perhaps at an effective DC of 19 doe to the CS) frequently. Note that even constructs and undead are subject to rending. To score enough points to beat this band, you will most probably have to brave the rends. But even if no rends occur, the Slaads (assuming they make their morale saves bolstered by the TC) are capable of holding their own in combat. This is another in a list of several bands that I have reasonably high hopes for and want to test out.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 1:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
One Slaad band that seems to hold promise (in my opinion) is:
Death Slaad x3 159
Tieflign Captain 21
Cursed Spirit 11
Orc Warrior x 3 9
200 points, 8 activations.
Pat, I like that a lot, for the reasons you describe: it's flexible, having the chaos hammer vs lawful and the rend vs chaotic.
You can get a lot of fodder-mileage out of trading down one of the three Slaads, however:
Death Slaad 53
Death Slaad 53
Red Samurai 40
Tiefling Captain 21
Cursed Spirit 11
Cursed Spirit 11
Taer 8
Orc Warrior / Warrior Skeleton 3
This ensures that one critical rend save will be made at -4 (as the Taer is usually a "use once then it dies" kind of piece). Against "titan" bands, that's pretty good. The Red Sam's breath weapon replaces the Slaad's Hammer, and they have similar attacks and damage. The Samurai is considerably less survivable, though.
Just an alternate idea taking off on yours. [:)]
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 1:56 PM |
| Wow, three Death Slaads are vicious. It had never occured to me to use them in multiples, but with the three Chaos Hammers (with three shots thats a minimum of 30 damage) you can definitely weaken opponent hitters down enough that by the time the enemy engages they are likely to be weak enough that the death slaad's lower damage is less relevant. And of course he is potent vs. other Chaotic hitters.
Interesting indeed. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/09/2005 2:25 PM |
| Deadly Rend, is a fantasy that comes true once in a blue moon. The Death Slaad has other interested facets (namely that Chaos Hammer to punish LE (Chraal) and LG (Snake Eyes) bands, that make it useful, but the rend is nothing but an after thought to me ...
For it to be useful, the following things must be true:
1) You must start adjacent to a foe (or gain enough reach somehow),
2) You must hit with both attacks,
3) The opponent must fail a saving throw,
4) The foe must not route after 1 strike, and
5) The foe must not have otherwise routed off the board (or died due to AoOs while routing) if it would have routed off the board after 2 strikes.
Further, if the creature does succumb to the Deadly Rend, you must consider that you're finishing off a wounded creature - which often isn't that hard to do with a second supplemental creature.
Who is this ability useful against? Mostly mid-priced chaotic pieces. That is pretty much it.
Low cost weenies die from the damage, so it is useless against them.
High cost pieces tend to have high ACs and high saves, making the probability of hitting on both attacks and seeing a failed save pretty low.
Lawful pieces tend to have higher ACs and Saves, so they tend to be able to resist the deadly rend better.
This is another red herring ability like the Balor's enslave - it is very unlikely to occur, even under ideal situations (but can be very important if it does occur).
Under the best of matchups (assuming stench is used), you're looking at a 40% chance of it being effective (at most). Gloat when it happens, but don't think it will be the best part about this piece. | |
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Jake
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 2:30 PM |
| I tried out the following warband the other day with some pretty positive results:
Death Slaad x2
Arcane Guard x3
Lolth's Sting x2
Orc Skeleton x1 (How I wish I could have fit that third Sting in there! Would have been so much more symmetrical!)
Granted, my opponent rolled poorly vs the Conceals, but when you have that much Conceal on your front two lines, that's gonna happen.
I was thinking about dropping all the fodder except two of the Arcane Guards and sticking in a Half Fiend Ogre. Only 5 activations, but it would have some scary damage potential. | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 2:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jake
I tried out the following warband the other day with some pretty positive results:
Death Slaad x2
Arcane Guard x3
Lolth's Sting x2
Orc Skeleton x1 (How I wish I could have fit that third Sting in there! Would have been so much more symmetrical!)
Granted, my opponent rolled poorly vs the Conceals, but when you have that much Conceal on your front two lines, that's gonna happen.
I was thinking about dropping all the fodder except two of the Arcane Guards and sticking in a Half Fiend Ogre. Only 5 activations, but it would have some scary damage potential.
I would avoid the half fiend ogre like the plague. with 65 HP and level 5 he has a major glass jaw. His damage output isn't enough to justify his cost. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 2:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Deadly Rend, is a fantasy that comes true once in a blue moon. The Death Slaad has other interested facets (namely that Chaos Hammer to punish LE (Chraal) and LG (Snake Eyes) bands, that make it useful, but the rend is nothing but an after thought to me ...
For it to be useful, the following things must be true:
1) You must start adjacent to a foe (or gain enough reach somehow),
2) You must hit with both attacks,
3) The opponent must fail a saving throw,
4) The foe must not route after 1 strike, and
5) The foe must not have otherwise routed off the board (or died due to AoOs while routing) if it would have routed off the board after 2 strikes.
Further, if the creature does succumb to the Deadly Rend, you must consider that you're finishing off a wounded creature - which often isn't that hard to do with a second supplemental creature.
Who is this ability useful against? Mostly mid-priced chaotic pieces. That is pretty much it.
Low cost weenies die from the damage, so it is useless against them.
High cost pieces tend to have high ACs and high saves, making the probability of hitting on both attacks and seeing a failed save pretty low.
Lawful pieces tend to have higher ACs and Saves, so they tend to be able to resist the deadly rend better.
This is another red herring ability like the Balor's enslave - it is very unlikely to occur, even under ideal situations (but can be very important if it does occur).
Under the best of matchups (assuming stench is used), you're looking at a 40% chance of it being effective (at most). Gloat when it happens, but don't think it will be the best part about this piece.
I'll start by agreeing that this band should not expect to rend a foe every match - against Lawfuls, it is less than likely to get a rend in any one match. However, the odds may not be as bad as you think. Against a Chrall, for example, one DS unaided by a Cursed Spirit will rend the Chrall in about 13% of full attacks. But if three DS make full attacks, the compounding gives you about a 35% chance of rending. At any rate, as was said before, in this type of matchup you hope that the Hammers knock 30-40 hp off one or two of the opposing Chralls. And if you fail to get a rend due to routing, all the better - you're still making progress.
Against an FB, one unaided DS has a 36% chance of a rend on a full attack; against an Orc Champion the odds become 34%. Compounded by three Death Slaads, this becomes significant - which it needs to be, since the DS are otherwise totally outclassed in damage output by the Chaotics. (Side bonus - it appears that a rended FB, since it does not have it's hp reduced to 0 but is instead directly eliminated, would not get a Death Strike). So I wouldn't go so far as to say that rending is a red herring.
I would agree that rendingi s not necessarily the best thing about the Death Slaads. Being a medium fly 6, with a save of 10, independent, good AC and regen to offset mediocre HP, and a reliable 15-30 magic damage is worth most of the 53 points. I think the rend vs Chaotics and Hammer versus lawfuls just pushes it over the top to make it an eficient piece. But I still need to get my third Slaad to test this out. I hope to report something in the next couple of weeks.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 3:24 PM |
| | Also note that a death slaad kills a justice archon on a little more than 25% of full attacks, without the help of a cursed spirit. I'd say that's pretty good too. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/09/2005 4:08 PM |
| I admit, the deadly rend isn't actually that effective against most pieces. That having been said, cursed spirits are generally a good idea regardless. I'm not too sure how great an idea 2 or 3 Death Slaads would be though. It seems kinda like your spending alot of points on somewhat low damage critters. I'll have to go out on a limb here and say that he'll be better in warbands that use him as a sub-out for another, more traditional, CE hitter. He is very versitile, but I'm not sure he's point efficient enough to use in multiples.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/09/2005 6:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Also note that a death slaad kills a justice archon on a little more than 25% of full attacks, without the help of a cursed spirit. I'd say that's pretty good too.
AC 19, ABs of +15/+10. You need a 4 (85%) and a 9 (60%).
Level 6, DC 17. You need him to roll a 10 or less (50%).
88% X 60% X 50% = 25.5%.
With a stencher involved, that climbs to:
AC 17, ABs or +15/+10/ You need a 2 (95%) and a 7 (70%).
Save 4, C 17. You need him to roll a 12 or less (60%).
95% X 70% X 60% = 39.9%.
HOWEVER, it doesn't happen when:
1) JA has less than 30 hit points left (rememeber those chaos hammers?),
2) JA has between 20 and 30 points of damage, is not under command, and fails a morale check from the first blow (again, those chaos hammers can easily force a couatl off the board), or
3) JA has an AC bonus, or save bonus that makes those odds decrease (Dwarf Artificer, Eberk, Cleric of Order, etc ... all make an appearance in tier 1 and tier 2 play).
The obvious response is: Well, duh! But, these are not that uncommon of a situation, especially when you're tossing Chaos Hammer at the JAs.
The best thing to do, here is proxy it up and see what happens. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 6:23 PM |
| | Well, given that 1) and 2) are indicative of beneficial situations for the death slaad, I hardly see that as a reason NOT to play it. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 6:25 PM |
| I like that band Pat. I really like that band.
It has poor-ish matchups on the chaotic side, but not horrible ... plus those matchups aren't the most common of opponents. If a band doesn't have a good SR-leading piece or evade damage they have issues. Maybe an LSD / CoDA band could outlast? [^]
Plus, as doubtofbuddha and I were discussing, it uses mostly new creatures - so a new player can easily acquire the components. Getting a bunch of ravagers, champs and red sams can be problematic but Death Slaads should be easy enough to acquire. Sure, it's a 3-rare band but that's not uncommon. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/09/2005 6:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Well, given that 1) and 2) are indicative of beneficial situations for the death slaad, I hardly see that as a reason NOT to play it.
They are not a reason *not* to play it. I've never argued against playing it (although, its tier 1 viability is going to be a product of how many warbands we see with middling saves and middling ACs on featured pieces with high hit points). I'm just saying the deadly rend isn't as powerful as people think. It is like the spoiler on a hot rod ... it gets a lot of attention, but it's far from the best thing about it.
[and get yourself an Avatar, Ian! You've hit 1300 posts!]
AC 22 in CE is outstanding. Flight in CE is great. Chaos Hammer can be huge. Above 60 hit points is real nice. Deadly Rend, Regeneration and the Commander Effect ... well ... they're nice extras to see on the car, but I wish I didn't have to pay extra to get them. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/09/2005 10:40 PM |
| I just finished a quick game against the "Fenris variation" of this band. I was playing a LE band with Chraal, Druegar and such.
It was a very tight match. Neither of us had played the bands before and we hadnt played on Magma Keep before either.. so it was a hell of a learning experience.
I pulled up the Death Slaads stats and just stared. it was like a nightmare being setup in Assembly Area B. He didnt drop the hammers early enuf and I managed to make all but 1 morale save (even the kobold miners! 3 times!). I killed off the cursed spirits quickly enuf, managed to win almost every initiative.. but missed 3 swings on a Red Samurai with 5 hit points left.
We had several small mistakes, but overall I think this band matches up very well against other top tier bands. Very nice build you came up with Pat.. I might have to build one up. Its got a whole lotta potential. I would love to see the matchups and how it fairs over the next couple weeks as UD settles into the mix. If you want to play a match or 3 on vassal, shoot me an email. | |
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Twinky Bingels
Skirmisher
15 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 8:01 AM |
| | I ran a tri deck of a Hezrou, 2 hunch giants and a sting and a minatour aginst Aesnaths Slad deck and hafe to say that the death is what won it. first game i did enougth damage to it after geting everything else out of the way to take it down but with its high ac and regen the i just couldnt get consitant hits on him and he ended up takeing a hunch and the Hezrou out so i would hafe to agree that its one of the best CE out of the set imo. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 8:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I like that band Pat. I really like that band.
It has poor-ish matchups on the chaotic side, but not horrible ... plus those matchups aren't the most common of opponents. If a band doesn't have a good SR-leading piece or evade damage they have issues. Maybe an LSD / CoDA band could outlast? [^]
Plus, as doubtofbuddha and I were discussing, it uses mostly new creatures - so a new player can easily acquire the components. Getting a bunch of ravagers, champs and red sams can be problematic but Death Slaads should be easy enough to acquire. Sure, it's a 3-rare band but that's not uncommon.
I traded for my third Death Slaad last night, so it's only a matter of time now...[:)]. I'll report.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/10/2005 9:29 AM |
| I got to thinking about it, and there's no way to fit the DSlaad in with traditional CE beaters for a "Slaad Quad" in 12-fig. This is kinda disappointing, but we typically play 8-fig anyway. I still, however, think a Slaad-tri is the way to go.
Let's take a moment to look at his odd cohort, the Blue Slaad.
Ok, now that you're over your initial shock, he's really not too bad with the DSlaad around. Two attacks at +15/+15 (20) when in command. An AC of 21 and 70 hp. Another Chaos hammer. Seriously, he worked better than I thought. | |
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Red Ranger
Sergeant
708 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 9:43 AM |
| Hey all, and to think I was going to trade my second Death Slaad away! What about this version (for 8 activation):
Cool Capes
Vampire Aristocrat - 57
Death Slaad - 53
Death Slaad - 53
Cursed Spirit - 11
Cursed Spirit - 11
Troglodyte - 7
Troglodyte - 7
Total 199pts, 7 act
That way if something fails it's morale save from the first of the Slaad's attacks, it's destroyed anyway!
Probably not as strong as some of the other builds, but in not-so-competitive tourneys or areas would be fun. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 10:03 AM |
| Don't forget the Blue Slaad's mobility ... he's a nimble blue toad ...
The Death Slaad's greatest weakness / bad matchup is likely ... CE Quad. Seriously. That said, the Deadly Rend is your key equalizer there ... I'm not sure the extra 5 damage a hit from the Blue Slaad is really worth that much. Still, he's got Reach, so could be useful ... but the damage output is lackluster compared to traditional quad.
Which, by the way, I like. I myself will hate the day that quad becomes completely non-competitive. It doesn't need to be the best ... just competitive. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/10/2005 3:13 PM |
| | That's really the trick with the blue slaad though. His damage doesn't depend on the rend. You can still move and get in a reasonable attack.In general (when you can force it) lead with the blue slaad, and flank with the death slaad. One thing you don't want is for a heavy to take a wack at the death slaad then move away and draw an AoO. If the BSlaad is there, enemies are less likely to take the AoO. Obviously, an Ogre ravager can fill the same function, but the BSlaad's AC and mobility are what make him....let's say reasonable. And his damage output isn't too bad when you consider he's swinging 20 with two very good attack bonuses. Often the more traditional beaters hit considerably less efficiently against ACs of 20+, and even the JA's AC can give the Ogre ravager fits. +15/+15 hits most ACs in 200pts easily. Again, this means less with 12-fig than 8, as it'll be easier to spend 50 points on a prime beater when a reasonable 40pt beater exists. Actually that applies to the death slaad too. | |
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Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/11/2005 9:25 AM |
| | I see no reason to include a Blue Slaad. Why not just use another Death Slaad instead. Side by side the Death Slaad's stats are similar but the Deadly Rend, higher lvl (10 vs 8), flight, and higher DC on the Chaos Hammer makes the Death Slaad a better choice. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/11/2005 9:31 AM |
| | The epic Death Slaad is interesting. He seems to get more for the extra points than the other epic figures in this set: +70 HP, Conceal 11, +4 AC, +2 LVL, +5 on attacks, +5 on damage, and a fireball and Power Word Kill. That's pretty good for about 150 points more. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/11/2005 9:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
The epic Death Slaad is interesting. He seems to get more for the extra points than the other epic figures in this set: +70 HP, Conceal 11, +4 AC, +2 LVL, +5 on attacks, +5 on damage, and a fireball and Power Word Kill. That's pretty good for about 150 points more.
Yup, that was my thinking. First time I looked I thought epic Slaad was not good, then I noticed the selling points (Conceal 11, Fireball, and Power-Word: Kill). | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 11/12/2005 2:40 AM |
| Hi all,
I just recently got a death slaad, and I really like the figure.
As I read this, I can see why the Epic version costs 150 more points than the non-epic version, but I still don't see how it stands up as a 200+ pt figure in Epic. It does very little damage per turn and it has speed 6 with no Melee Reach.
Perhaps I'm just a really bad player. Could someone come up with an Epic warband that uses the Epic Frog efficiently to its full potential? I like the figure a lot for 200 pt format but would like to see it work for Epic format as well.
Thanks,
John | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/12/2005 6:21 AM |
| | Fireball, Chaos Hammer, and Power Word: Kill do somewhat even the field. Conceal 11 makes him more survivable, and Deadly Rend (especially with Stench Effects) is a horrile spectre for the save=10 huges! [:D] | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 11/12/2005 2:23 PM |
| Hi again,
Thanks for the response!
I can understand the extra abilities and extra 70 hp being useful, but I don't like how it adds up comparing to some other figures like Aspect of Kord. For slightly over 140 points, you get +70 hp, +2 attack, +10 damage standard attack, +110 damage full attack, 2 extra attacks (for more chance of getting critical), +2 AC, DR 5, Cleave, Blind-fight, +1 save...
That change is a significant difference. Aspect of Kord actually gives pause (Opponents do not want to draw attacks of opportunity from him), whereas, opponents can essentially ignore the Death Slaad's 20 damage (at the same attack bonus). So what I'm paying for with 150 pts is the extra Fireball and Power Word Kill (which I have a sneaking suspicion won't be nearly as easy to use as it sounds against a smart opponent).
Sorry I still don't see it, but thanks for the response anyway,
~John | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/12/2005 4:40 PM |
| | Well John, Epic is wierd. The Death Slaad, in Epic, gets two powerful spells, extra AC, conceal 11, and extra hp. Now, he certainly isn't the beater that the AoK is, but he isn't bad either. Look at some of the other epics. Artemis, Justicator, and even Elminster don't seem to really get all that much over their regular version. | |
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slayer1
Sergeant
597 Posts
| | 11/12/2005 4:57 PM |
| | The nice thing about deadly rend and running multiple death slaads is that when they flank a creature, both figures benefit from an increased chance of hitting with both attacks. | |
Har 25/80 De 35/60 Ar 43/60 GoL 61/72 Ab 42/60 Dk 43/60 Af 51/60 Ud 49/60 WD 50/60 | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 11/12/2005 5:15 PM |
| Nice responses! Here are my thoughts:
You are probably right Aesneth about other pieces not getting as much from their extra cost for Epic, but I'm not sure about the Epic Justicator.
He gets a lot for those 115 extra points you spend on him. You get +40 HP, +4 AC, +6 attack bonus, +5 magic damage, Level/Save +2, Blind-Fight, DR 5, Immune Paralysis, an extra use of Smite Chaos, Smite Chaos damage +20, and three swift cures, which can cure your front-line melee. Melee Reach 2 would help you reach them for the touch range on the cures.
I'm probably too stubborn to see how Epic Death Slaad would work for Epic, but I can see how AC 22 and Regeneration might be good for 100 point games. I'm newb, so perhaps my assumption is wrong, but since I see that many people on these boards say that DR 5 is a much bigger deal in 100 pt games than 200 pt games, I'm assuming that their logic also applies to Regeneration 5? And the AC 22 would help as well? Perhaps also, speed 6 flight is also better for 100 point games? I'm also guessing that level/save and AC are all much lower in 100 point games, so Deadly Rend would work more often (though I guess most creatures would die after 30 damage anyway, [:D] ), and 15 damage is actually a big deal (compared to 20 damage in 500 pt games).
Oh! and I almost forgot about the Chaos Hammer, which I'd think would be great against 100 pt armies! Especially at DC 16.
It would also fare well against 200 pt pieces brought over into 100 pt games such as Orc Champs. Not perfectly, but well enough.
Has anyone tried this or can anyone offer me their opinion on the figure for 100 pt games? I think it would be very strong, but I'm probably wrong.
Let me know what you experts on Maxminis think.
~John | |
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