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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
    
United States
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/10/2005 9:26 AM |
| "This is a significant advantage for player B, because while there are many solid creatures to choose from with speed 8 or 9, relatively few efficient creatures exist with speed 10 or higher."
Once these maps are legal, a lot of people will consider the advantage of a Wolf or Timber Wolf for an efficient, speed 10 piece.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 9:27 AM |
| | apparently the choke point isnt in the correct position from what Fenris just told me. | |
Minis... Serious Business
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 9:44 AM |
| | Apparently, he agrees with me that side B has the advantage. I read nothing there that indicates A has any advantage. | |
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| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 11:08 AM |
| Yeah, I tried to find something, but nothing much jumped out at me. I'm sure some will say that the ability to not get GMA-fireballed first turn is an advantage. But if you have start on side A of Magma Keep to get that "advantage", then it could really be more characterized as choosing which disadvantage you prefer -- fireball to the face, or letting your opponent dictate where the battle will occur and which units you will have to fight first.
I'm going to see if I can't get that choke point fixed. It should be one square down, so that Larges can't fit through the intersection.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 11:18 AM |
| What strikes me is that the article reads like assault points are what the game is played for. Some things that I have noticed in play are that.
1) Player A has to wade through Player B's victory areas to get to the fight. There is no out of the way spot where you can park a tile grabber that it will occupy Player A in sending off units to kill it. So B may be able to get tile grabbers there, but they will come under fire immediately. The corrolary to this is that A does have an out of the way victory area. If B elects to defend it, they are pulling themselves away from their own victory areas. Kobold Miners and Dire Bats are handy for taking this spot. The DB was surprisingly durable in my prerelease.
2) Player B can occupy the "choke point" very quickly, but there are two ways for A to get there. This can leave the cork in the choke point vulnerable to attacks from two sides at once. It also helps A that the route that the choke point causes the most problems for isn't the most direct one. Playing on this map my opponent put a hunched giant at the choke point, but that just bottled his units up behind it, while I was able to bring in hitters through the large room and the side hall and take it down pretty quickly while his help was backed up. The half-ogre barbarian is handy for running through victory area B, whacking a tile grabber, then running up the hallway to pose a second threat to the "choker"
3) The broken corner allows a commander to sit in the corner and be able to see and command both the exits for rallying and the large area where I think most of the fighting will take place. The Nentyar hunter is great for this. She can stand there and pelt units supporting the choke point while keeping an eye on all her forces.
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1364 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 11:40 AM |
| I initially thought that avoiding the GMA+fireball was a small advantage, but the point about giving up control of the board is well-made.
On a related note, I wanted to say that I enjoyed the article, Fenris. This is the sort of game analysis that's really needed. Whether one agrees with your take entirely or not, it shows how a high-level player thinks about the game. I can take that sort of analysis and apply it to any of the maps. Thanks.I enjoyed the article, Fenris. This is the sort of game analysis that's really needed. Whether one agrees with your take entirely or not, it shows how a high-level player thinks about the game. I can take that sort of analysis and apply it to any of the maps. Thanks. | | | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 11:59 AM |
| Thanks! I'm glad you found it helpful/interesting. [:)]
Lantern, it's a good point that the "plug" piece is probably going to be exposed to a lot of enemy firepower. If you can beat down the plug unit, then you're in good shape. My point is though, that side B player gets to decide which unit(s) you'll be beating on, and which are safely behind it.
After all, most bands include units that you WANT to get into the battle, and ones you'd rather not. Sticking one of the former in that choke point keeps the latter mostly safe. Unless the enemy has flyers/burrowers. Which are very good on this map, in general. | |
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ccolinh
Sneak
144 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 12:35 PM |
| | Slightly off-topic but I was looking to find out how Waylay, Cave Setup and Wandering Monster are going to be handled with the new maps. Will Mongrelfolk, for instance, be of any use anymore? | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 1:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Thanks! I'm glad you found it helpful/interesting. [:)]
Lantern, it's a good point that the "plug" piece is probably going to be exposed to a lot of enemy firepower. If you can beat down the plug unit, then you're in good shape. My point is though, that side B player gets to decide which unit(s) you'll be beating on, and which are safely behind it.
After all, most bands include units that you WANT to get into the battle, and ones you'd rather not. Sticking one of the former in that choke point keeps the latter mostly safe. Unless the enemy has flyers/burrowers. Which are very good on this map, in general.
I've pondered this question quite a bit, since toying with a few maps that have "choke point" like features on them. With the emergence of some new pieces, there is a certain rather big, silver PLUG that could be quite annoying as such a piece. Particularly if it cares little enough for assault points that could be quickly made up by one swift breath weapon.
Certainly something on the power curve to think about. Especially if that Plug is fast, flying, and a potent offensive and defensive weapon. | |
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Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 11/10/2005 2:00 PM |
| Fenris-nice article. WotC really handicapped you on the length of the article didn't they?
I suspect you could have used 1000-1500 words to do a more indepth analysis of the map. | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Try escaping the GMA, Evermeet transposition fireball! Ha, ha! Gotcha now, cowards!
Dave
Since that would require 3 activations (GMA, transposition, fireballer), you'd get a chance to move a unit or two up front to suck of the fireball and prevent everyone else in your warband from getting blasted. | |
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| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 2:20 PM |
| Kiddoc, I've thought about that too. And compounding the advantage, move=2 is going away, which means that the mobility of the big silver plug isn't crippled if the commander dies. It's going to be interesting to see if there's a big surge in the power level of LSD/LRD after Wardrums. I'm not making any predictions, but it's something to watch.
Newtoncain, I wouldn't characterize it as WotC crippling me. It's true that you can only get to a certain depth of analysis in an article that short, but frankly I wouldn't have had time to write anything much longer. I've been extraordinarily busy recently, and we wanted to get the article up fast so that people would have time to digest it before Gencon Socal. Maybe next time I can write a longer one. | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Kiddoc, I've thought about that too. And compounding the advantage, move=2 is going away, which means that the mobility of the big silver plug isn't crippled if the commander dies. It's going to be interesting to see if there's a big surge in the power level of LSD/LRD after Wardrums. I'm not making any predictions, but it's something to watch.
Certainly something to watch for. Plus going to 8 figures era, LSD and LRD will have tougher units behind them.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/10/2005 2:47 PM |
| Huh. I've played nearly a dozen games on this map now. My opinions about the map differ a bit from the Fenris analysis. I understand that my opinion can't carry nearly as much weight as our national champion (I'm not being sarcastic here ... the guy has my complete respect as a player and a person), but I'll still offer it up for people to consider.
In my opinion, you cannot gain assault points and defend against your foe attaining assault points *while allowing your units to work together cohesively*. Defending assault areas from the various avenues of attack will require you to split up your forces into groups that can't support each other easily, making them vulnerable to gang tackles that will put you in jeopardy of losing more points in figures than you gained by delaying your opponent a turn or two turns of tile points.
Unlike a tile point advantage, a kill point advantage leaves you weaker in defending your team. I've seen plenty of games where a team significantly behind on assult points for most of the game has won the match - but I've seen fewer where a team that has been behind due to lost pieces for most of the game has made a come-back. This map makes it hard to defend your units and defend two assault areas. Your units are more important.
My goal on this map is to secure assault points as quickly as possible, defend myself to deny my opponent kill points, and focus my efforts on beating down my opponent's warband to maximize my kill points before time is called. I don't worry as much about the assault points my foe is acquiring. If I can delay my foe his assault points for a round, or if he leaves a vulnerable piece as his only assault point grabber, I'll certainly take advantage of those opportunities to deny him assault points.
This, of course, is a general discussion. The makeup of warbands will sometimes dicatet different approaches. However, in general, I wouldn't focus on trying to deny my enemy assault points. I'm far more worried about preserving my warband, scoring my own assault points and taking down as much of my foe as possible before the final round ends. Denial is just too costly on this map.
I do agree that side B is much stronger than side A, so if you do have an option on commanders and you'll be playing on this map, commander rating is very important. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 3:47 PM |
| Nice article, Fenris. While I haven't played on the map yet, the observations you make seem very reasonable.
My only addition is an expansion on points that lantern314 and jgsugden have made:
quote:
from lantern314
The broken corner allows a commander to sit in the corner and be able to see and command both the exits for rallying and the large area where I think most of the fighting will take place. The Nentyar hunter is great for this. She can stand there and pelt units supporting the choke point while keeping an eye on all her forces.
quote:
from jgsugden
In my opinion, you cannot gain assault points and defend against your foe attaining assault points *while allowing your units to work together cohesively*. Defending assault areas from the various avenues of attack will require you to split up your forces into groups that can't support each other easily, making them vulnerable to gang tackles that will put you in jeopardy of losing more points in figures than you gained by delaying your opponent a turn or two turns of tile points.
With these two comments in mind, there may be a subtle advantage for player A in the placement of victory areas, particularly with respect to the broken corner in the northwest corner of the keep, if player A has ranged ability. From the northwest corner, just outside the actual keep squares, a ranged attacker can see every square of both of player B's victory areas while still commanding a decent field of fire in the 'chokepoint' area. While there are some squares what will provide a cover bonus to a creature standing on them, they don't prevent LoS. You don't necessarily want to overload that corner, but a Nentyar Hunter, Elf Stalker, or Wizard Tactician will probably be very strong placed in that region. The Nentyar in particular is a good choice for that corner, because she also gets LoS to player A's exit squares, helping to avoid the 'dang, my creature didn't rout off the map but now I can't see it to rally it' problem Fenris mentions in his article.
Meanwhile, there is no equivalent space where player B can stand with a ranged unit and command both of player A's victory areas, much less both areas and the likely main battle area. If player B commits to the center area, player A has the chance to play 'catch-up' on tile points by running a tile grabber to the lower victory area and keeping player B's victory areas clean of tile-grabbing fodder.
This also has implications for Rikka, in that it will be much easier for player A to drop her in using Waylay and have her in command if she's used as a tile-point denial unit against player B rather than a potential commander assassin. The north victory area for player B is particularly interesting in these terms, as Rikka can Waylay in, slaughter a tile-grabber, then fly down to help flank someone occupying the choke point.
Just my $0.02US, but it certainly doesn't seem like the end of the world if you have to play side A, presuming you have a figure or two who can take advantage.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 3:56 PM |
| Pauper, I think that is the major advantage to side A, I just don't think it makes up for the advantage that I think B has in picking the battle and controlling the center (and having a commander in LoS to handle routing minis).
Side B might also be usable for slow LG minis, where I don't think that is true for Side A at all, but I'm at work between meetings and can't post complete thoughts right now to defend that statement. | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 4:10 PM |
| True, Zaukrie, and I'm not saying side A is better than side B in general.
But if player A has a band that can keep the victory areas clean of fodder, then player B has little choice but to conduct the fight on one of his victory areas - camping on the choke point and daring player A to attack won't work, since A can just race a Winter Wolf or something around to his lower victory area and turn the tables. And oddly, player A seems to have better coordinating vision to player B's victory areas than player B does - not to mention that player B has to abandon the 'choke point' to do so.
For constructed, Magma Keep side A may end up being one of the stronger maps available for ranged warbands, combining wide fields of fire with limited approaches. Limited bands won't be able to take advantage of that to the same degree, but it's still worth considering.
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Pauper | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
6879 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 4:11 PM |
| What I don't like about the map is that all of the victory areas have exactly 0 spaces to hide on (if I'm seeing this correctly) - especially from start position B. If your opponent has a ranged unit, they will hit it. Mongrelfolk and Kobold Miners have no place in a warband that plays on this map.
As far as the "choke point" goes, just place the large figure 1 space down and 1 space to the right, nothing gets by without an AoO (barring flying and burrowing) and your figs can still slip in and out. | |
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| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/10/2005 9:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by greyhaze
As far as the "choke point" goes, just place the large figure 1 space down and 1 space to the right, nothing gets by without an AoO (barring flying and burrowing) and your figs can still slip in and out.
The article's been fixed now, that's the spot I meant from the beginning. [:)] | |
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