Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 11/14/2005 9:51 AM |
| | recovered topic 11452 | |
I am not gone. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 9:51 AM |
| 1) The Sword of Heironeous is too vulnerable of a commander and the Maruts are too susceptible to energy attacks. You would have lots of problems with gauth/chraal bands.
2) Too much tech, not enough muscle. | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 11:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
1) The Sword of Heironeous is too vulnerable of a commander and the Maruts are too susceptible to energy attacks. You would have lots of problems with gauth/chraal bands.
2) Too much tech, not enough muscle.
1. Sword of Heronious has never died in playtesting 35 hit points / fearless and a 10 pt heal is pretty solid. Yes i've tested againts guath/chraal/Duergar champ/Dark naga and am currently 2/2. (tile placements is key.
2. If #2 needs more muscle, how do you give it more muscle? | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/14/2005 12:10 PM |
| | I'm not too sure on the viability of dual-Marut. It just seems like you'd almost always be better off using the extra points to get extra attacks. Sword of H. is OK as a slightly expensive back-up commander, but fairly poor as a primary commander. A friend of mine has had some luck with Coutal and Sword of H. as commanders, but not in a Marut build. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
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Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 1:26 PM |
| I hardly think your testing of the Sword of Heronious twice against some random player is enough to assert that you can avoid its destruction especially if you are playing in the 12 activation era still. Even if you move to the 8 activation era, there are enough tough mobile hitters who can get to the Sword without drawing too much Marut attention to make running the Sword of Heronious a risk.
Here is an example of an 8-activation era band that provides the Marut with the muscle and support it needs to be successful:
Couatl
Cleric of Yondalla (for magic weapon, a commander rating, and the ability to boost the JAs attacks in certain situations)
Marut
2 Justice Archons
2 Man-at-arms
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 1:46 PM |
| | I agree on the Sword of Heironeous. If your opponent isn't killing her off every time, they're just not trying. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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loremaster
Sneak
105 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 2:12 PM |
| | I played a Marut and GM at the prerelease and found the band lacking. The Marut seems powerful, but only has one attack and 65 hitpoints. The GM has the problem of only +9/+9 attacks. High AC opponents are hard to hit and he only does 10 damage. I also had the Gray Render which didn't improve the band. I think you need more hitters. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 3:18 PM |
| I'm just not sold on the Marut yet. It seems close but not quite there to me for some reason.
Part of my issue is that to me, the Couatl is a slam-dunk addition to any Marut band (for the reasons that many of you have already stated). So, if I'm going with a Couatl anyway, why not use an Aspect of Kord instead of a Marut. I realize that the Marut has some significant advantages over the AoK, but the AoK has some nice advantages as well. It probably just comes down to playing style, but for me, I'd save the 9 points and take the AoK. | |
Rhane
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/14/2005 3:49 PM |
| | Also the Marut is less likely to get hurt and has more immunities. The Aspect of Kord is a much more variable piece then the Aspect of Kord. Sure, if the dice are with you he can be more effective then the Marut, but the Marut suffers less when the dice aren't working out for you. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/14/2005 3:59 PM |
| | AoK definately has some advantages, but the Marut's got alot going for it as well. Fearless, Construct immunities, blindsight, +6 AC, SR, DR, and even +2 attack, and an area damage spell all over the AoK. Not too shabby for the cost. AoK IS a bunch faster though, and a little cheaper. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 1:07 AM |
| | Ya, blindsight is really nice with all the conceal running around. There's nothing quite as deflating to your ego when your AoK wins init, runs up to smack something for 40, only to wiff on the conceal roll... [)] | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 8:40 AM |
| I think I need to answer some questions here.
I've tested this 5 times not twice...(I'd play it 100 if I could but games take and hour and theres not too many peeps around here who play.)
Marut has 75 hit points not 65(whoever that was)
The band is 3/2 and its 2 loss's were against Gauth/Chraal band. I understand that this is one of its biggest weakness.
I'm sure there is a TON of strategy that I don't know but there are a few things I can rebut. There is almost nothing that can afford to take an attack of opportunity from a Marut. So going past to get a commander is not really wise because before you can drop him your unit will die to 2 maruts (almost guarantee). I'm trying to play the Band with Aftermath tile and deny tile points while getting them myself. So far this has channeled my opponents to my tile Grabbers which is exactly where I wan them. Marutx2 goes in and just mops up against other hitter bands.
The origional thought was that Marut x 2 could be something like LSD 122pts/148 points. And in some ways it has been in others its not even close.
Anyways I'm still not sure I can make it work but I'm pretty sure I'll be running it at a tournement in 2 weeks I'll make a post then. | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 11:15 AM |
| Marut + Kord + Couatl is a fun band. Kord and Marut are good at different things and complement each other well. Imho, a Marut (or Kord) without a Couatl is not competitive. You need that ability to pump 60 damage into something, because 30 D for 70 odd points just ain't cool.
Obviously, the Couatl provides much needed energy protection for the Marut as well.
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Champion of the Huge Green Dragon *cough* Cyan *cough* Bloodbane *cough* | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/17/2005 9:00 AM |
| I think I've stumbled onto another variant for Marut that looks quite interesting. Lets have a look.
Marut 74
Couatl 42
Cleric of Yondalla 14
Halfling Ranger 23
Dwarf Wizard 21
Lidda Adventurer 9
Azer Raider 5
MaA x4 12
200 points 11 activations
P.S. I know how good Justice Archons are I just don't like them (and I dont' know why). | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 11/17/2005 2:42 PM |
| quote:
P.S. I know how good Justice Archons are I just don't like them (and I dont' know why).
I agree, If your playing a savvy opponent, Justice archons become a 32 point liability, as well as having fairly poor attack bonuses
Marut is lovely, however, especially when playing against Drow/Elves | |
Champion of Troglodytes!
Guy Who Cant Get Anything Exact
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/17/2005 2:48 PM |
| A 32 point liability? What?
Please explain this if you would. | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 11/17/2005 3:14 PM |
| | Trog probably means when he's facing high AC'd opponants or opponants with SA (i.e. beholders) they are a waste of points. | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/17/2005 3:27 PM |
| | Yes, and when facing creatures that deal tons of fire damage, the Chraal is at a liability and when facing creatures that can deal damage fast enoguh to force a morale save the orc champion is a liability. That doesn't change the fact these are all among the best hitters in the game. | |
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 11/17/2005 3:37 PM |
| | Liability is definately strong in that case, i cant deny the power and use of the justice archon(especially in a favorable situation) however thier unfavorable situation is occouring more often from where i am. This is why i would use another mini(or minis) in their place. | |
Champion of Troglodytes!
Guy Who Cant Get Anything Exact
(called uncommon displacer beast for Unhallowed
Squire of Runic Guardian, gets shield Guardian) | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/17/2005 3:59 PM |
| Yeah, but their usability is enough that its worthwhile to include them in the right builds, and with the defense that the Marut can provide against the typical things that cause JAs problems, it is definitely worth including them for the Marut's more problematic match-ups (high damage enemy hitters.)
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/17/2005 10:24 PM |
| | Couatls are far too common for the Marut to be too solid of a piece. 20 damage (or 15 if the foes has DR) is just not enough damage output for 74 points. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 4:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Couatls are far too common for the Marut to be too solid of a piece. 20 damage (or 15 if the foes has DR) is just not enough damage output for 74 points.
Agreed. Not to mention that the up and coming death slaad is immune to sonic as well.
The marut is strong, but it needs other hitters in the band or else the band will not have enough danage output. There really isn't much point in placing buffers or support pieces into the band when there's not enough hitters to benefit from them. Which is why I feel the optimal build is couatl, marut CoY (cheap commander with magic weapon to boot), and 2 hitters, preferably JAs or gith monks (rikka has too low a save).
Since when is the JA a liability? It may not do much against some opponents, but it sure lasts a long time and is generally a pain in the butt for a mere 32 points. The JA is just so resilient for its points, even if you bring it and it doesn't hit much, it is still a great blocker, flanker, a failsave against chaotic beaters (which the marut suffers against) and a general pain in the butt that your opponent cannot simply ignore. | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 8:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yeah, but their usability is enough that its worthwhile to include them in the right builds, and with the defense that the Marut can provide against the typical things that cause JAs problems, it is definitely worth including them for the Marut's more problematic match-ups (high damage enemy hitters.)
Marut does not have a problem with high damage hitters Just about everything has a 55% chance (OR LOWER,,,MUCH LOWER) to hit him. His liability is Energy reistance from special abilities spells...cone's...guath...beholder.
Also tho Couatl will be a problem negating 10 of his damage. Marut can kill a couatl in 2 rounds with 1 swiftness of your own. And in the most common Couatl band that I know of with JA's you will undoubtedly go after the Couatl first anyhow to remove their boldness.
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Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 10:29 AM |
| The Couatl protects the Marut from energy quite nicely. The problem is if an eye and two orc champions move up and hit him he goes down. Sure only the eye and one orc champion is probably going to hit, and you miht be able to eliminate one of them before the next round, but next round the two of them will attack and the Marut dies.
Its even worse if a triple Frenzied Berserker band decides that it would make everyone's life easier by using a GMA to get 6 double attacks on the Marut. Then, as you kill them, they deathstrike you causing even more damage.
Yes, the Marut can suffer vs. rival energy dealers, but its easy to deal with that using the Couatl, the Marut also needs a way to deal with enemy high-damage dealers, and it has that in the form of the Justice Archons.
Oh, and getting the Marut to the Couatl isn't as easy as you are making it sound, especially if playing on any sort of board with constricting terrain. The Marut is a large speed 6 non-flyer. He is not the most mobile piece in the world. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 10:55 AM |
| Death Slaad would be one matchup that isn't good for the Marut I think.
The Triple Slaadi band can drop a minimum of 30 couatl-avoiding damage on a Marut before engaging. With their +15/+10, they only need 3 hits to finish him off. With 3 of them, it's likely. They also take only 20 from the Marut due to Immune Sonic.
But...rock-paper-scissors..everything has to have a batch matchup. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 11:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Death Slaad would be one matchup that isn't good for the Marut I think.
The Triple Slaadi band can drop a minimum of 30 couatl-avoiding damage on a Marut before engaging. With their +15/+10, they only need 3 hits to finish him off. With 3 of them, it's likely. They also take only 20 from the Marut due to Immune Sonic.
But...rock-paper-scissors..everything has to have a batch matchup.
The one thing about this is that the Marut has spell resistance, offering him a level of protection from the death slaad's chaos hammers. I would still consider this a rough match-up though, simple because of the havok those chaos hammers can wreak on the Marut's support. | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 12:05 PM |
| To Doubtofbudda" I agree with that last post 99%.
I dont' think Marut "needs" Justice Archons. But, he does need something. I'm still looking for that something. If Archons are the only answer well then Lawful Good be damned for only having 1 decent unit =) | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 1:35 PM |
| | Oh, they have other decent units, its just that they fill different roles than the Justice Archon. Both the Slayer of Domiel and the Githzerai Monk are solid pieces, they just don't have what it takes when paired up with the Marut. He needs what the Justice Archons provide. | |
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