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Subject: recovered topic 11476

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Aesnath
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11/15/2005 8:54 PM  
I'm not saying I don't like the Death Slaad, I just think three will be excessive in one warband. They are strong against Law factions, where CE is having a problem, and they are good in general. However, they are a little slow, and don't hit all that hard. Three in one Warband, for a whopping 159 doesn't sound great, when you still should want another commander (for init and morale) and activation control. All I'm saying is that I'm a little skeptical of the quantity suggested for the unit.

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Kyuketsuki
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11/15/2005 10:01 PM  
Come on Balor rules, it has 8 for speed(Comander killer) and been large, with fire inmunity(for fireballs) DR5 (for graycloaks), blind fight(drizzt, slayer conceal and frenzied berserker with blur), +16 +16(more % to hit LG) red tied for the end of the game when you really need to win ini, and the possibility of enslave after the comader is killed, come on i already enslaved, an Efreeti, a Justice Archon, a slayer of domiel, a friend of mine enslaved a healer in inspiried frenzied, defenitly Balor rules just have to use it very well.

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Kyuketsuki
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11/15/2005 10:03 PM  
did i mention that my balor roll a viscius critic on a Human Blackguard and he died because had already take 10 dmg from red samurai cone? then Chralls bolw away and that was pretty much the game

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Jhonwolf
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11/16/2005 12:41 AM  
What about the Aspect of Lolth vs the new LG stuff?

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ChristopherGroves
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11/16/2005 12:59 AM  
It is one of those fun figures that just isn't quite in the kit. There are plenty of these kinds of figures that are promising and can certainly win matches or tournaments. They don't go into the kit though until they have a proven track record.

With a level of 14 and decent damage against everyone BUT CE it's certainly one to watch. It really depends on how the metagame falls out.

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evil_boy
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11/16/2005 1:08 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha

quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy

Nice article, as always...
The red sam: while on paper it works well against chraals and JAs, it would be worthwhile for new players to note that a 1-on-1 match up is actually rather equal, and thus the chraal and JAs may win since they are cheaper.



It works better against Chraals than any other Chaotic Evil hitter. Its saving throws are high enough that it is much more likely to be able to resist the death burst and breath weapon than the other CE hitters (except the Ogre Ravager), it has a higher attack bonus than the other CE hitters (except for the Eye, but the Eye takes 5 damage every time he hits the Chraal), and thanks to its fire damage, its going to be hitting them for as much damage as the other CE hitters. In total, I think this makes it about as worthy of an opponent for the Chraal as you are going to find among the CE hitter array at this point in time.


I absolutely agree with what you said, the red sam is the best CE hitter to go against a chraal, but I just thought I'll make a point and not let newer players go away with the misconception that the red sam will definitely win against the chraal. The red sam is CE's best answer to the chraal, but the match-up is still rather equal.

quote:
Your points are pertinent regarding the JA, however, the Red Samurai has the advantage in speed, thus allowing it to have a bit more of control over where the battle is going to take place and its breath weapon. Granted, with Couatl back-up the Justice Archon is likely to be able to avoid the breath weapon, but it is certainly possible to get multiple Justice Archons in the cone, especially if they are all bunched up around the Couatl for the energy protection. Also, this is where strategy comes in. If I am running Red Samurais, against a band with a Couatl, I am probably going to be using them to go after the Couatl rather than the Justice Archons. The benefit is too great not to.

I've tried gunning for the snake before, but found it difficult (maybe I'm just not a good enough player...). I'll have to take an AoO from the JAs to base the snake, which will promptly gladly invoke an AoO to get away. After that the JAs will probably base the red sam and the slug-fest will result between the JA and the red sam (I can't afford to keep taking AoOs from the JAs to base the snake). So effectively I've just taken 15 damage on my red sam to deal 15 dam to the snake, for nothing. In fact it just hastens the death of the red sam.

What I do like is to include a deathlock in the band. It's magic missile means that after 4 smacks from a red sam, the deathlock can finish the JA off without having to waste a 5th smack on it. So far in my limited testing the 4 red sam+ tiefling cap+ deathlock+ 2 orc warrior has been doing ok against the likes of snake eyes and justice4all.

quote:
The orc skeleton is in the toolkit because it provides a 10 damage option for lich fodder creation. This can be huge when dealing with CG and CE low-AC hitter bands and against things like Justice Archons and Rikka who are almost immune to 5 damage guys. In many situations the difference between 15 and 5 hit points is negligible, in others it can be huge. This is why its important to keep both Orc Skeletons and Gnoll Skeletons in your toolkit, so you can properly adapt to whatever sort of situation you have at hand.

I suppose its just a matter of personal preference. What makes the gnoll skellie so great is that you'll have to deal 15 dam to kill it, which usually means an attack/spell from a mainline piece. Do less damage and it sticks around due to fearless. It takes an unproportional amount of effort to kill the 5pt guy, which is why I will definitely prefer it to the orc skellie. Maybe its the way I view fodder, to me they are there to survive and grant activations, receive damage, and block assess, not to attack offensively.

quote:
The Hyena is there basically as a complement to the Orc Druid, which I still see included in quite a few bands. In situations where you are using the Orc Druid, I can see very few reasons not to include the Hyena (unless you have 5 points left, as you noted) due to the sheer utility that a speed 10, 4 point CE fodder provides.

I think this is another taer/trog example. You have 5 points left, you're better off with a timber wolf. 4 points left, go get a hyena.

quote:
You are probably right about the Harpy. I expect he will disappear from the next toolkit, but he is being kept as a legacy piece for the time being.


No problem, honored that my viewpoint is shared by other great players of the game... [)]


Teach
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11/16/2005 3:28 AM  
I have played against the aspect of lloth three times (twice as LG and once as CG) and everytime I've won. The secret to beating the aspect of lloth I think is just to keep throwing low cost pieces against it to keep it busy, and eliminating everything else in the warband. As doubt says, it's not quite tier 1, for some reason. I think it's a combination of being a little too high cost for what it does, and not having many pieces that can adequately support it.


dpoppink
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11/21/2005 12:58 PM  
I've been studying up on the toolkit, and noticed a few errors. The Taer is listed as being in Dragoneye, and Ryld's set isn't listed at all. They're both in Aberrations.

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doubtofbuddha
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11/21/2005 1:45 PM  
Thanks for pointing this out!

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syldar
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11/23/2005 12:55 PM  

Hello you all !

I didn't saw the Vampire Aristocrat, which is a good commander in CE. It's fast, useful for Magic missiles, can hit good and makes your enemys weaker and weaker with it's Drain.

I tried a funny vampire band one time (300 points)
1 Aspect of Demorgogon 101pts
1 Aspect of Lolth 75pts
2 Vampire Aristocrat
2 Timber Wolf.

The Aspects are fun, don't forget them i think.

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doubtofbuddha
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11/23/2005 12:59 PM  
They may be fun but they aren't competitive. You could win a few games here or there but you aren't going to win major tournaments with them.

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wicked cool
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11/23/2005 2:33 PM  
what about clay golem? He seemed effective at 1 point. why the change. slow?


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11/23/2005 2:52 PM  
Too slow, not enough damage, too debilitating of a weakness.

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ChristopherGroves
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11/23/2005 3:28 PM  
His "command dependent" isn't that huge of a weakness, but his other problems (slow slow slow and only 90 not 95 HP) are an issue. If CE or CG had other pieces that could fit well in a denial strategy he could be more useful. He's not the way of the future. Nice piece to have and fun to play, but not one I'd strongly suggest a new player pursue.

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wicked cool
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11/23/2005 10:17 PM  
it seems to me that an experienced player would only need a pool of 20 mins from each faction to choose from to be highly competitve in any skirmish game. Sorry if this sounds obvious

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Jhonwolf
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11/23/2005 11:42 PM  
yeah :P that's why i don't play competitively [:D], not enough variety, not enough themes.

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