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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
    
 | | 11/15/2005 2:38 PM |
| | recovered topic 11534 | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 2:38 PM |
| | He is hard to play and fragile for his cost. I dont have one yet so i haven't come up with any builds. sry [:p] | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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Ayrych
Skirmisher
22 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 4:43 PM |
| i haven't really played around with arty yet in 200 point constructed, my gut reaction being that he's too many points. however in sealed he's an absolute monster. dual activation + sidestep + backstab is a nice lineup of excellent special abilities, the key to using him i think would be finding him a good flanker that itself is threatening enough that it cannot be ignored either. if there was a way to get him +5 damage reliably i think he would be perfect.
if i really wanted to include him i'd probably run something like this
artemis
dark naga
efretti
azer
choker
goblin skirmisher x3
(alternately you could swap snig and the sniglettes in for the choker and 2 of the goblin skirmishers)
it's crap, but it just might be entertaining crap. | |
-Eric | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 5:02 PM |
| | Can u make 2 attacks before u sidestep? If u can u could do a crazy thing where u attack twice and move 1 for 1 activation then move one and attack twice again against a different creature. Flanking would be nice :) | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 5:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TruNutral88
Can u make 2 attacks before u sidestep? If u can u could do a crazy thing where u attack twice and move 1 for 1 activation then move one and attack twice again against a different creature. Flanking would be nice :)
That's sorta what sidestep does. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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slayer1
Sergeant
597 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 5:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TruNutral88
Can u make 2 attacks before u sidestep? If u can u could do a crazy thing where u attack twice and move 1 for 1 activation then move one and attack twice again against a different creature. Flanking would be nice :)
It's better to activate, move in, hit twice, activate again, hit twice, and then move out. | |
Har 25/80 De 35/60 Ar 43/60 GoL 61/72 Ab 42/60 Dk 43/60 Af 51/60 Ud 49/60 WD 50/60 | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2129 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 6:33 PM |
| | its too bad Drizzt is not an even match for him in skirmish including miniature size | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/15/2005 8:04 PM |
| | Artemis is like the Archmage - he is far more powerful in the hands of a skilled player that has practiced using him. Once people understand how to use him, he will be a good piece ... but no outstanding as he is a bit fragile for his cost when all is said and done. Regardless ... when combined with the right pieces, he can drop a world of hurt on some enemies ... We don't have many pieces that can move 18 spaces and then drop 40 ranged (range 6) damage on an enemy ... I just wish they'd worked in the vampiric dagger mechanic into the piece ... it is his long standing signature weapon ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/15/2005 8:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wicked cool
its too bad Drizzt is not an even match for him in skirmish including miniature size
Actually, you need to fight it out between these two solo a few times. It really comes down to who can get the drop on whom ... and whether that sneak attack ranged attack gets in on Drizzt. If drizzt uses scout to start off within a move of Artemis, and can base him, in 1 move ... then it is a pretty fair fight. If Artemis gets the drop on Drizzt, Drizzt better get very lucky with his concealment ... If you start adding in allies, it gets more interesting ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/15/2005 8:43 PM |
| | Well, I've tried to run Arty a few times, and I really can't see the benefit. His actual ability isn't too bad, but his cost is extremely prohibitive. He doesn't leave much room for support, and isn't as powerful a threat as I want him to be. His backstab IS nice, but Maruts are somewhat popular as of late meaning I can't get always get the damage on what I want. His ranged attack is impressive, but one use is far too limiting. I may be wrong about his effectiveness, but any piece that requires a high level of skill to be even marginally effective still seems like a mistake. Other "finesse" units seem to bring more to the table--they have some ability that makes their shortcomings worth working around. I don't really see that with Arty. And remember, even with all that movement, he still needs to sneak attack to get even reasonable damage off. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Avatar of Skirmishes
tullywi
Sergeant
982 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 9:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
And remember, even with all that movement, he still needs to sneak attack to get even reasonable damage off.
Actually, I'm not so sure about that. His attacks are pretty good. Assuming he connects on all 4, he can do 40 damage a round. Granted, that requires some pretty good rolls to take down a Marut, but not so much to take down something with 20 or so AC and 80 or fewer hit points that is immune to flanking. I think the Lich Necromancer has 19 AC and 75 hit points for instance. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/15/2005 9:51 PM |
| | Ok, 40 damage, sure, but on an 89 point piece. And if you had to double move/double activate to get to your target, you're looking at 10 damage. If he costed 65, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As it stands he doesn't offer a whole lot for his price. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 10:52 PM |
| I tried this warband in our 200 pt tourny last week and got pretty close in everygame (for the most part).
Artemis 89
Helmed Horror 45
Urthok the Vicious 34
Kobold Sorcerer 20
x4 Hobgoblin Warriors 3 (12)
I lost to a Balor+2 Orc Champs and a Drow Patrol, Greenfang w/ Grey render and Bears, and Sword Archon w/ Justicator and Dwarf ancestor. I beat a Elminister band though. All of these games were very close except the Balor one but I did manage to take down one champ and make the Balor rout(He came back but not enough time left). | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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Slippy Fist
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 11/15/2005 11:14 PM |
| Rakshasa
Artemis
Green Dragon
Duergar Champ
+9 pts filler
This band worked very well for me. And it obviously gets even better if Drizzt is on the other side of the board. Rak's slides, Art's sidesteps and Green Dragon pretty much guarantee sneak attacks. jgsugden hit the nail on the head though, with pieces like Artemis, practice makes perfect. | |
body like a jellyfish, mind like a scientist | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 9:19 AM |
| | Lots of practice, and a VERY well thought out remaining 120 points or so to go with Artemis. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 1:12 PM |
| What about something that takes advantage of Activations, with good initiative, and another powerful melee threat?
quote:
Artemis Entreri LE 89
Orog Warlord LE 71 4
Orc Raider (REMOVE) CE 0
Orc Warrior (REMOVE) CE 0
Snig the Axe LE 20 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Azer Raider LG/LE 5
Azer Raider LG/LE 5
Duergar Warrior LE 4
Warrior Skeleton LE/CE 3
Warrior Skeleton LE/CE 3
Activations: 14 (in an 8 activation environment)
Initiative/Morale: +4
Commanders: 2
Titans: 2 (Entreri and the Orog aren't super survivable, but, do fight very well.)
Counter to low AC beaters?: 5 Screeners that do 10 damage.
Immunities: 2x Cold, 2x Fire (Azers, Skeletons)
Flanking: Raider has a speed of 9. After that Entreri's sidestep can help him to flank with slower units.
With this band, baring losing map initiative and setting up poorly to eat an area spell early, you will be able to activate Artemis after your opponent, and, if you win initiative, use him again.
That'd be 4 activations in a row for Artemis.
The Orog hits very well with some resistances and solid damage (more vs Chaotics).
Since you'll be committing Artemis last, your opponent may commit to a strategy of killing the Orog or other softer units. If they do that, and Artemis comes in, you put them in another difficult position of having to choose where to focus their attacks.
Supposing that you are facing CE Quad, I'd think you'd want to try to route an Orc Champ with a tossed Dagger & Backstab damage, then move in and try to route a second one with attacks and the additional activations you're bringing.
You'd hopefully eliminate two enemy hitters before they can nail you, just based on activation control.
I don't know how viable this'd be, but, my gut feeling is that Artemis needs melee support and activation control more than he needs a flying buddy to help him flank (he can get to his own flanking situations if need be, and, if not, the Orc Raider can move 18).
Thoughts? | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 1:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
What about something that takes advantage of Activations, with good initiative, and another powerful melee threat?
quote:
Artemis Entreri LE 89
Orog Warlord LE 71 4
Orc Raider (REMOVE) CE 0
Orc Warrior (REMOVE) CE 0
Snig the Axe LE 20 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Goblin Skirmisher (REMOVE) LE 0
Azer Raider LG/LE 5
Azer Raider LG/LE 5
Duergar Warrior LE 4
Warrior Skeleton LE/CE 3
Warrior Skeleton LE/CE 3
Activations: 14 (in an 8 activation environment)
Initiative/Morale: +4
Commanders: 2
Titans: 2 (Entreri and the Orog aren't super survivable, but, do fight very well.)
Counter to low AC beaters?: 5 Screeners that do 10 damage.
Immunities: 2x Cold, 2x Fire (Azers, Skeletons)
Flanking: Raider has a speed of 9. After that Entreri's sidestep can help him to flank with slower units.
With this band, baring losing map initiative and setting up poorly to eat an area spell early, you will be able to activate Artemis after your opponent, and, if you win initiative, use him again.
That'd be 4 activations in a row for Artemis.
The Orog hits very well with some resistances and solid damage (more vs Chaotics).
Since you'll be committing Artemis last, your opponent may commit to a strategy of killing the Orog or other softer units. If they do that, and Artemis comes in, you put them in another difficult position of having to choose where to focus their attacks.
Supposing that you are facing CE Quad, I'd think you'd want to try to route an Orc Champ with a tossed Dagger & Backstab damage, then move in and try to route a second one with attacks and the additional activations you're bringing.
You'd hopefully eliminate two enemy hitters before they can nail you, just based on activation control.
I don't know how viable this'd be, but, my gut feeling is that Artemis needs melee support and activation control more than he needs a flying buddy to help him flank (he can get to his own flanking situations if need be, and, if not, the Orc Raider can move 18).
Thoughts?
I like that. It plays to the strength of Artemis and has only one glaring weakness (area spells) | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 1:29 PM |
| | I'm partial to using 2 Savages as Orog minions, since they almost always find something they can hit to get the hp boost. | | | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 1:34 PM |
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Play around a few times with him, find him quite okie. But against anything that cant be sneak is his biggest weakness. If he got divine sneak like skullclan it will be slightly better.
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"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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Avatar of Skirmishes
tullywi
Sergeant
982 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 1:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
Ok, 40 damage, sure, but on an 89 point piece. And if you had to double move/double activate to get to your target, you're looking at 10 damage. If he costed 65, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As it stands he doesn't offer a whole lot for his price.
Ah, but if you are double moving/moving and attacking, you are picking your battle. That means you should be able to avoid the construct or undead that is immune to flanking. If you double move and attack a construct or undead, you should be using your ranged attack and dropping back out of attack range on the construct or undead. Artemis is very flexible that way. Two activations means he should be able to pick his battles. He needs to be smart about what battles to pick.
Yes, he is expensive. Yes, he takes practice to play well. Yes, he is worth his points. (At a cost of 65 points, he would be broken good.) Yes, he can be competitive. Given the other options that LE has now, you are probably better off playing a different warband.
I was thinking of having him in a warband with a Dark Naga, Gauth, and filler (I'm not at home so I'm not sure how many points I've got left). I like the Green Dragon idea too. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/16/2005 4:08 PM |
| | I'm a simple kind of person, I'd rather use Green Dragons. To be fair, I'm pretty well against most 80+ units, I just think he's closer to the bottom of the barrell than the top. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 8:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by tullywi
I was thinking of having him in a warband with a Dark Naga, Gauth, and filler (I'm not at home so I'm not sure how many points I've got left).
31 points.
Entreri is 89 points, Dark Naga is 41, and Gauth is 39.
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/16/2005 11:52 PM |
| quote:
I like that. It plays to the strength of Artemis and has only one glaring weakness (area spells)
Right, but, since you know that's a weakness, you'll have choice maps picked out, and if you see a fireball or cold bursts on the other side, you can try to seperate and lead with the Azers or Skeletons.
Vs something like 3x Death Slaad, you'd have to really try to spread out those activations... but the Slaad don't rend well vs the Orog or Artemis.
Vs Cones, the 7" rule is always good. Keep your screeners in choke points and keep them 7" apart. This makes it easy to move quickly, and frustrating for an opponent trying for a cone.
Unless you're up against tons and tons of area effects, I think you can minimize the weakness.
Chraals and a Green Dragon, or 3x Slaad, would be tough to maintain your activation lead against (although you could just hide some of the screeners).
I'm really thinking that a Fenris style Chraal band would be the toughest fight for the 14 activation Artemis band... (although, it wouldn't be impossible to try to exploit a hole and get to the commander...) Artemis double activating at the end of a round and at the beginning should be just about enough to kill something like a HBG. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 10:29 PM |
| | Just to resurrect this thread, does anyone have any recommendations for a 12-fig limit and tiles? We still play that around here (apparently behind the times... [B)]) | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 11/25/2005 11:19 PM |
| Justicator x2 (Flankers and otherwise solid hitters)
Artemis
Cleric of Nerull (Commander and good CFX for the band)
various fodder
I just came up with this so wait for some input on it first, but it sounds pretty good.
for tiles, use blood rocks. Artemis will hurt with blood rock | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2129 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 11:38 PM |
| | maybe he just needs a buddy like the YM did. maybe its in a upcoming set. | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 5:18 AM |
| The best flankers for Artemis are Xorns. I used them to fantastic effect in a sealed tourney in GenCon SoCal.
The reason why they are better than Efreetis, Justicators, or Helmed Horrors for flankers is:
1) They cost half as much
2) They have much better mobility - despite their spd 4 - because they can burrow and do not provoke AoOs for moving
You can't be too aggressive and move way past the Xorns, but if you measure your steps, the Xorns can move into flanking positions very easily while you are setting up Artemis. And they hit for 20 dmg with their first attacks, so they can lay some serious smack if the opponent ignores them for Artemis. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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crabrazil
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 7:39 AM |
| i think due to all the calls about lack or less of strategy in D&D, WOTC are now creating difficult or more strategic kinds of pieces.
Artemis is one of these.
why?
you need to learn to use his step side ab. and dual activation and backstab. But need to know against who you'll use.
hug's | |
________________________________________________
CHAMPION OF THE WARFORGED NINJA OF THE WEST | |
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omikapsi
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 1:38 PM |
| YRM: I ran a similar band in a local tourney with no success, although my luck was kind of poor. I posted a tourney report on the wizards boards at http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=533723
I'm considering the following band for the next local tourney:
Artemis 89
Urthok the vicious 34
Bladebearer Hobgoblinx2 42
Snig the axe 20
Goblin skirmishersx5 15
Snigletsx3 free
200 points, 14 activations.
The high activations and decent initiative will almost guarantee that Artemis can pull off some hit and runs unscathed, and give him great commander assassination potential. If he does kill the commander(s), the bladebearer hobgoblins become really dangerous, with attacks +16/+16(15 magic) from Executioners blade and Urthoks CE.
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 2:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by omikapsi
YRM: I ran a similar band in a local tourney with no success, although my luck was kind of poor. I posted a tourney report on the wizards boards at http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=533723
I'm considering the following band for the next local tourney:
Artemis 89
Urthok the vicious 34
Bladebearer Hobgoblinx2 42
Snig the axe 20
Goblin skirmishersx5 15
Snigletsx3 free
200 points, 14 activations.
The high activations and decent initiative will almost guarantee that Artemis can pull off some hit and runs unscathed, and give him great commander assassination potential. If he does kill the commander(s), the bladebearer hobgoblins become really dangerous, with attacks +16/+16(15 magic) from Executioners blade and Urthoks CE.
First, you should only run Artemis and Orog and Snig in an 8 activation environment where you can out activate your opponent by SIX activations.
The point is to make it a guarantee that Artemis can activate last in a round, twice, and possibly first and second in the next round.
Finally, the other point of the Orog is to have a major combat buddy for Artemis (as well as a good commander). Artemis can mess around throwing his dagger for a round or two until the Orog can engage.
In your proposed band, there is nobody to serve as a powerful combat ally for Artemis at all.
Bladebearer Hobgoblins are one hit from routing to most foes.
Urthok is slow, just like the Orog, but Urthok can't really help Artemis too much, whereas, you can move into something with the Orog, then engage it also with Artemis (or use a Raider for flanking)
If you're going to go this way, I think you need to work in a Duergar Champ... they still get +2 from Urthok, and they're the only low cost hitter with comparable damage and accuracy to the Orog.
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother trying to run Artemis until things are officially 8 activaitons, or if your local tournament already runs 8 activations. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 7:18 PM |
| Much like you guys, I really want to like Artemis. But playing him is a suicidal endeavour - Mordenkainen's Sword anyone?
The offense he gives can be impressive, but it's nowhere near as impressive as, say 89 pts of heavy hitters could dish out. And Artemis' damage comes in very particular situations, while regular heavy hitters are always dishing out massive damage for their points.
Artemis, sadly, is for fun games only. | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 9:49 PM |
| i would really try to play him more if he had more special abilites like drizzts does. Melee and Ranged Sneak Attack +5, if that had been ten it would have been uber. Legendary Assassin 10 (Whenever this creature destroys a Unique enemy, you score 10 extra victory points) is very bad for the type of games i plays (till everyones dead). that he had say maybe DR and spell resis instead of that, I say he'd be a very useable peice (for kill everything play at least). or would that be too good.. hmmm
All though the hide, range backstab, run forward and attack in one turn can be very nice :D | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 11/26/2005 10:34 PM |
| It's actually good that Artemis Entreri wasn't made too competitive, or he would have overshadowed his nemesis. As it stands, I think a 200 point match where the two of them face off should be a pretty even one.
Does anyone disagree? Why? I'm thinking that the Entreri team might have a slight edge, if the Drizzt guy uses too many uniques (helping Entreri's Legendary Assassin ability). | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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