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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 11/18/2005 2:31 PM |
| | recovered topic 11683 | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 2:31 PM |
| Sam was able to build a decent Balor band around a Balor, Orc Druid, 2 Grimlock Barbarians, Cursed Spirit, Troglodyte, and a Hyena.
He beat my mostly fearless Marut build, but only just barely, I rolled a 1 on one of my marut's attacks, made a few mistakes, and he got a lucky shot off on the Marut from a Grimlock.
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I am not gone. | |
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 11/18/2005 2:33 PM |
| I also recently aquired a balor, and i must say i agree on most if not all your points.
I think the fact most of my pieces ran often and early was a major drawback, so i replaced most of my minor beaters and fillers with undead, it worked in a few cases. | |
Champion of Troglodytes!
Guy Who Cant Get Anything Exact
(called uncommon displacer beast for Unhallowed
Squire of Runic Guardian, gets shield Guardian) | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 2:36 PM |
| How about this?
Balor
Ogre Ravager
Orc Champ
Drow Sergeant
Orc Warrior x4
You still have the problem of only having CR 2, but the four orc fodder should help that some in the early game...
EDIT: Argh, nevermind. Thats really no better than an Eye, a Champ and five orcs... | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 2:44 PM |
| Right now I think CE suffers from being the worst faction to play. The old heavy hitters (Eye, Orc Champ, Ogre Rav and Red Sam) are not as high a level as the top tier pieces of the other factions, have much lower armor classes than their counterparts and have less chance to make their morale check due to lack of commanders giving them as good a bonus. Some pieces have such horrid attack bonuses in compared to the 20+ ACs of lots of great pieces in the Lawfuls that hitting them requires lots of high rolls. Balor isn't helping the faction any at all. He's marginal for use in 200 point play and has far too many bad matchups. In 500 point he could be more useful. As it is I've played very few CE warbands as of late that can handle the power of the high ACs, high attack bonuses and major boosts to saves. All of which CE doesn't get much of. Plus the plethora of fearless creatures against the highest commander rating for CE that is playable being the Tiefling. Which still pales compared to CoDA, BPM, HBG, Soth, etc. Even if it costs practically nothing. I'm almost in belief that unbanning the Drider at this point would barely help CE enough much less the constant one trick pony figures that it keeps getting.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 2:54 PM |
| My friend who owns a balor uses him alot but sadly has lost each match with him (4). He's not a bad player just got bad rolls or unlucky crits. His build was
Balor
Clay Golem
Orc Warrior
x2 Abyssal Maws
Zombie White Dragon
+filler
It is a pretty good build but the balor got critted by my WER at the end of the game causing me to win. Also the balor got ganked on so that made the Clay Golem ables to beat on his ZWD and everything went wrong. | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 3:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Right now I think CE suffers from being the worst faction to play.
I think that CG is actually the weakest faction right now. Remember that a CE band was the runner up at Gencon. A few lucky or unlucky rolls here and there and everyone might be talking about how Orc Champs and Red Samurai are still top dogs. The old quad figures are still good. Now they just have some bad match ups where as they didn't before. CE does need some new blood. Although I still think the Death Slaad has some good potential.
As for the Balor, it suffers like many other titans. Titans cannot afford to be simply solid like the mid cost minis can. When you put all your efforts into one mini, you need it to be extraordinary in at least one area. The LSD, Beholder, and Archmage at least have one area where they shine and those still struggle against the combined efforts of mid-priced figures. More figures = more chances for good fortune. Also misfortune doesn't cost you as much. Where as a rolling a 1 on a save with your LSD is absolutely fatal. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 3:20 PM |
| I think 500 point is the home of both the epic and non-epic balor.
Play agaist and with a balor/Orge Ravx2 band on last sunday. My mounted pally band destroyed it. Then I took it over to try agaist gith monks and got my ass handed to me.
In 500 point you could put in more figures that can force a very bad morale check. If enslave doesn't work the balor can't win. | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 4:29 PM |
| quote:
I think that CG is actually the weakest faction right now.
CG has several tricks up it's sleeve though. CE does not. It's straight forward and if you go up against it you pretty much know what to expect. I just don't feel it's as good as it was. I don't think we'll see CE making it into the semis or finals this year. Unless something in War drums really adds to it.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 7:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The Balor has potential, but it simply may not be workable right now. Don't beat yourself up too much. Look at the Hezrou ... is there a top-tier Hezrou build right now?
This might be a silly thought - has anyone tried Balor + Hezrou? [:p] | |
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Trade References: www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8560 | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/18/2005 7:23 PM |
| Balor + Hezrou is silly right now - point cost is way too high, and damage output per turn is way too low.
Balor's high cost is mostly due to that commander effect, so you need to focus on it to make a warband work around him. This means that you're severely handicapped when facing fearless creatures. Accordingly, I doubt the Balor will ever be a competitive piece any more than Aspect of Lolth, Aspect of Orcus or Hezrou are truly competitive. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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Zoons
Underboss
1066 Posts
| | 11/18/2005 10:39 PM |
| Balor band seems to only be able to succeed against bands where he can commander assasinate. Cursed Spirits and Trogs are his filler buddys and I agree the Red Sam is the beater of choice for him. Tiefling makes a nice second commander (To increase HIS morale save.)
You have to be agressive with him and sometimes that will get him killed outright against a good player with the right resistance and beaters. The right complimentary pieces may still be waiting to be released. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/19/2005 1:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TruNutral88
Balor
Clay Golem
Orc Warrior
x2 Abyssal Maws
Zombie White Dragon
+filler
Very close to a band that my friend ran. The two beaters of the band is the same, Balor and Clay boy.Except he used Tief Cap and Orc Druid as back up commanders. And he even enslave my Stone Giant in one game[B)].
Give him sometime, as Chris mention there two more sets coming our way. Maybe by that time we will be able to see top Balor and Hezrou bands.[:D]
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"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/19/2005 1:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Balor + Hezrou is silly right now - point cost is way too high, and damage output per turn is way too low.
Balor's high cost is mostly due to that commander effect, so you need to focus on it to make a warband work around him. This means that you're severely handicapped when facing fearless creatures. Accordingly, I doubt the Balor will ever be a competitive piece any more than Aspect of Lolth, Aspect of Orcus or Hezrou are truly competitive.
Hezrou is close, IMO, and certainly is very strong in sealed, which is more then can be be said of the balor. My thinking on the balor is that it's really not tough enough, 125 hp seems like alot but goes really fast, since it is half your warband and all...he's pretty fine offensively though. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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md3
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 11/19/2005 1:55 AM |
| I have an untested build that appears to be similar to something mentioned here.
Balor
2 x Ogre Ravager
2 x Cursed Spirit
1 x Trog
As for other bands I've run with the Balor, you really do need a 2nd commander. Why doesn't Enslave work on my own guys is what I scream each time the Balor's followers run away.
Anyway, I found that the trick is definately to kill the opponents commander. I'll take the chance and double move... fly right next to his commander. Most commanders can't stand being hit by the Balor and the Balor can usually last 2 rounds standing there beating a commander. After that, your other figures should be in place (near the Balor) to start smacking around minions to Enslave them. Fearless figures are the Balors bane of course. | |
"You are not the sum of your miniatures."
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/19/2005 2:08 PM |
| I found I had the best runs when I just gave up on trying to make enslave work. You don't have the points to really try and make that aspect work. I've got a couple of other builds I'm going to try before I give up on him, but I'm just not seeing it. He may get a little better if a solid 30ish point CE beater comes out soon.
As for some of the other suggestions. I considered the Orc Druid, but his low commander rating probably would punish me. You need that commander 4. Trust me. Without it, you'll lose initiative, alot, until the later part of the game, and good luck with morale saves. I tried some bugbear champ builds and one drow sarge build, and that commander rating of 2 is just crappy.
Also, just as a side note, one of the WBs I lost too was a DCoL + Hill Giant build, that my wife came up with solely on her own, and then piloted to victory handily. It currently stands as her most decisive victory and proudest DDM moment to date. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 7:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
I found I had the best runs when I just gave up on trying to make enslave work.
The easiest way to make Enslave work, IMO, is not to play eight-figure limits.
The difference between an eight-figure environment and a twelve-figure environment is huge for the Balor - eight figs not only removes weak fodder that's perfectly suited for Enslavement (presuming you build the band that way - BBCoE and Deathlocks are both key), but the points saved goes to another beater that can be used to help force a morale check on your Balor.
The beauty of the concept is that the Balor band doesn't actually have to be twelve-figs - given a couple of Enslavements in the first couple of rounds, you can start with as few as seven figs: after those Enslaves, the activation count is 10 to 9, which is very close to even.
I fully expect that Wardrums will include a figure that will help the Balor adapt to the eight-figure environment. Until then, play twelve-fig. That's the environment the Balor was tested in, and it's the environment he does best in, IMO.
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/20/2005 8:50 AM |
| Pauper's post got me to thinking. If people start playing more than 12 figures in the 8-figure environment (minions, summons, etc.), then if the Balor enslaves a summoner, does the player of the Balor also take over the already-summoned pieces that this summoner has brought into play?
Anyone know? (It seems like I asked this before somewhere; maybe I'm losing my mind.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/20/2005 9:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Summons stay in the original band.
Dang, that's too bad. It would have made the Enslavement that much cooler.
And, I suppose, if you do enslave a summoner, you have to have provided your own figures if you want to summon creature's. I mean, your opponent is under no obligation to share.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/20/2005 12:06 PM |
| | Ok, I can see that. In general, I feel that 8-fig helps titan builds out a little, but in this case I certainly see your argument. Easier enslaves and more critters running around for red tide would help the Balor, and the Eye build is really hurt by 8-fig. But, 8-fig is the environment my group has chosen to play in, and going back just for one unit I want to work doesn't seem too fair. Besides, I like 8-fig. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 12:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Summons stay in the original band.
Dang, that's too bad. It would have made the Enslavement that much cooler.
And, I suppose, if you do enslave a summoner, you have to have provided your own figures if you want to summon creature's. I mean, your opponent is under no obligation to share.
Dave
Right, so bring some maws and hellhounds along too.
The more I think about the balor, the more I realize that he's a very intimidating figure (big flaming demon, enslave triple damage crits) that might be a problem the first time or so you fight it. Then you realize that it's a glass cannon, enslave really doesn't work all that often, and his base damage is low enough that triple crits arn't actually that scary, particularly when compared with an orc champion under command of a tiefling. If I'm going to run a titan build I'll stick with LSD, thaskor, etc. Heck, even the ghaele eladrin can kick the balor's scaly arse back to the Abyss, she's faster, has a medium base which makes her even faster by comparison, and can mow the balor down with ranged attacks- and the ghaele is hardly the world's most undercosted piece.
In short, as soon as you get over the intimidation factor, I think that the balor is really pretty lame, and not destined to see a lot of play outside of the cool factor.
That said, it will see a lot of play for the cool factor, similar to the beholder, though I think that on net the beholder is a better piece. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/20/2005 4:45 PM |
| | Yes, I've started to think about the LRD again, because of my experiences with the balor. Alot of what I like about the balor (fly speed 8, 20 damage with a solid attack bonus on the first attack) is actually supported by the cheaper and slightly more durable LRD. Plus I get a neato BW. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 5:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Pauper's post got me to thinking. If people start playing more than 12 figures in the 8-figure environment (minions, summons, etc.), then if the Balor enslaves a summoner, does the player of the Balor also take over the already-summoned pieces that this summoner has brought into play?
Already been answered, and correctly. Enslaving a summoner doesn't bring over the summoned critters, nor does it get rid of them - the summoner is only 'eliminated' for VP purposes, not any other purpose.
Doesn't work for minions, either, despite the definition of minion in the glossary reading 'if you add this creature to your warband, you get the minions as well'.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 7:34 PM |
| Yeah, in constructed, the Balor isn't relly that hard to beat. Frenzied Berserkers can tear one apart because they're fearless, so Enslave doesn't work, and they have two 30-magic damage attacks, which makes the Balor's 125 HP (is that right?) look pretty weak. (Trust me, I once slaughtered a Balor with Inspired Frenzy. It was a pretty quick game).
Now, from what I've seen, the Balor would probably work better in sealed, but that's probably because I got the crap kicked out of me by one at the UD pre-release. Oooouch... | |
Check out my DDM Blog: http://scifirules.livejournal.com
"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
Champion of Chainmail Equivalencies | Knight of Efficient Fodder
WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 11/20/2005 11:02 PM |
| I agree with the point that WNG made, in that the actual Balor mini looks so cool, that you assume he can do a lot more damage than he really can. I mean compare him to an Orc Champion (just by looks), and he looks like he should do way more damage, but not so. That was my experience when I first played against it (with Coualt + JA + Marut), in that I saw the Balor and thought that I was going to have a heck of a time killing it, and then three rounds later there was no more Balor and my warband was still more or less intact. I have never personally run him (right now he is posed on a shelf in my office), but I am quite underwhelmed.
Cheers,
Jon | | | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 10:27 AM |
| Here's why I don't like the Balor:
Balor versus Eye of Grummsh:
Points: 95 vs. 44
Level: 10 vs. level 8
Speed: F8 vs. 8
AC: 20 vs. 11
HP: 125 vs. 90
MELEE ATTACK
+16/+16 (20 magic + Vicious Attack/10 magic +5 fire)
vs.
+15/+15 (25 magic)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Blind-Fight
DR 5
Immune Electricity , Fire , Poison
Melee Reach 2
Red Tide
versus
Immune Flanking
Viscious Attack
The Balor's Commander Effect sounds impressive but is barely useful- few figures worthy of merit would fail two combat saves in a row, and even those that do are mostly dead. The Eye's, on the other hand, is broadly useful when taken into account during warband building.
So for more than twice the cost you're getting a figure with an inferior commander effect, inferior attacks and only a somewhat higher survivability. Both really need secondary commanders, although the Eye's cost is low enough to make buying a second commander a reasonable option. No number of cool special abilities really make up for the basics of what you're getting. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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